beefing up my computer for HomeRec

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AlfredB

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Hi there,

I have a "generic" computer w/ 1,6gh Athlon, 256kb Ram 7200rpm-hdd, standard motherboard sound card and also a USB soundcard (just p`layback - no recording feature, tho!)

... and cool edit pro is crapping out on me as soon as i use 6+ tracks ... (clicking from buffer-underruns, i guess)

where would I need to put my money if i want to beef up my system? Ram i guess? ...

where would you put your budget of 100-200 bucks?

thx!!!
alfred
 
Something is weird with your computer (probably OS) because two years ago I could run 30 tracks of audio in CEP on a 400mhz PIII w/ 512 RAM on a system with only 5200 RPM drives without a hiccup.

I can get about 40 tracks but the buffer gets sluggish.
 
Oy gavalt! only 256KB!!!!! how are you running windows!?!?!?!?! unless its 3.1.............ew





I think you ment MB...sorry for hazing you there.

but yes...memory would be a good place to start...but i agree with cloneboy that something is fubu if you cant use more then 6 tracks with what you got...can you give us some more specs?
 
alfred - i am a comp engr by training. you should be getting large amounts of tracks. before doing anything get a tech to check your HARD DRIVE DMA
is enabled. in control panel under system device manager then look at the properties of your HD. also get 512 memory.
i bet someone forgot to enable dma - which is needed for audio.
also get the tech to set you up as a network server rather than desktop.
a simple drop down window you select.
basically someone didnt set yoiur system up correctly.
 
manning1 said:
alfred - i am a comp engr by training. you should be getting large amounts of tracks. before doing anything get a tech to check your HARD DRIVE DMA
is enabled.
i bet someone forgot to enable dma

Hi there Manning,

I am down here in South-America, where *everybody* is expert, but only 2% really know - thats why i am hesitant to ask - let alone bring my computer to the dealers ... they probably tell me to buy X - Y and Z

===>bling!!!! ... ;o)



but seem you are 100% right - the drives are DMA enabled ... but when I go to "DMA controllers" under "system" , there is no driver installed.

Where can i get a DMA driver (or controller) ? ... are those generic - so can i download it?

thx a lot for your time and effort!!!

saludos
Alfred
 
It should happen automatically with Windows 2000 or XP, if you're using ME or 98 then you should try to track down some driver updates for your motherboard. I remember having to do this to be able to use large hard drives a couple of years back, when you needed to get a 'Dual Fifo' thingy, it was a Flash update though so not a small job ... !
 
hi there,


THE GOOD NEWS:

I just managed to get both drives in DMA mode :D ;)



THE BAD NEWS:
multitrack-use is still choppy, jerky and breaking up ... i al
so messed around with the buffer values, etc... still no real breakthrough considering i run just 8 tracks :-/.


any other pointers???

thx
alfred




I am posting here an article that I found MOST HELPFUL (lost the source though) --- its a "must" - read if you dont have your drives in DMA mode
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

DMA Mode for ATA/ATAPI Devices in Windows XP
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/hwdev/tech/storage/IDE-DMA.mspx

The crucial paragraphs are:

PIO mode is enabled by default in the following situations:
...
For repeated DMA errors. Windows XP will turn off DMA mode for a device after encountering certain errors during data transfer operations. If more that six DMA transfer timeouts occur, Windows will turn off DMA and use only PIO mode on that device.

In this case, the user cannot turn on DMA for this device. The only option for the user who wants to enable DMA mode is to uninstall and reinstall the device.

Windows XP downgrades the Ultra DMA transfer mode after receiving more than six CRC errors. Whenever possible, the operating system will step down one UDMA mode at a time (from UDMA mode 4 to UDMA mode 3, and so on).
...

Of course, drive firmware being quite complex and certainly containing programming defects of its own, it is not all that difficult to produce such errors. In my case a scratched DVD and later also an unreadable (overburned) CD did the trick, got the drive to choke and Windows to disable DMA for good. Later my hard disk hiccupped just once and also went back to PIO for good.

I had been using my laptop for DVD viewing for years, until I inserted a borrowed and heavily scratched DVD. The player and apparently even the DVD drive choked on it, and when I finally got the DVD to play, I found that playing was jerky and processor load was 100%, roughly half of which was system overhead.

This indicated that the drive had reverted from the usual UDMA (Ultra Direct Memory Access) mode 2 to PIO (Programmed Input Output) mode. No amount of resetting or changing the relevant registry parameters from 1 (try DMA) to 2 (force DMA) helped. Stubbornly the drive kept using PIO mode, and Windows even changed these settings back to 0 (use PIO only).

The following text will refer to the secondary IDE port because that is more often affected, but essentially the same also holds for the primary IDE port, to which the main hard disk is connected in most computers.
Check Your IDE Port Mode

First check what mode your secondary IDE port is currently working in. Go to Device Manager: right-click on My Computer, select Properties, click on the Hardware tag, click on the Device Manager button, click on the plus sign to the left of IDE ATA/ATAPI Controller, double-click on the secondary IDE channel, click on Extended Settings and check whether it is set to DMA when available. Directly underneath that setting is a grey field that shows the actual working mode of your IDE channel. You want the highest possible DMA or Ultra DMA mode there, and you definitely don't want PIO mode.

Normally you don't have to use the registry editor for this, because the normal settings are also available through the properties dialog for the IDE port, but if you want to look at it anyway, the parameter for the secondary IDE port can be found through regedit.exe at

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\HARDWARE\DEVICEMAP\Scsi\Scsi Port 1

It is named Scsi only for historic reasons. Scsi Port 0 is the primary IDE port, to which presumably your hard disk is connected.

After trying various remedies—in vain—I found the abovementioned article and went to work again. I uninstalled the DVD drive in Device Manager and rebooted, but that did not help either.

So I searched for more and better information, then I went on and did the following.
Re-enable DMA using the Registry Editor

My thanks go to my fellow MVP Alexander Grigoriev who taught me this method.

Run REGEDIT. Go to the following key:

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Class\{4D36E96A-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}

It has subkeys like 0000, 0001, 0002, etc. Normally 0001 is the primary IDE channel, 0002 the secondary, but other numbers can occur under certain circumstances. Check the DriverDesc value to see which one it is.

Delete MasterIdDataChecksum or SlaveIdDataChecksum, depending on whether the device in question is attached as master or slave, but it can't actually hurt to delete both. Reboot. The drive DMA capabilities will be redetected.

Open Device Manager again and check whether the device is now actually using DMA mode. If so, congratulations, you've made it (at least until the next time Windows disables DMA).
Alternative Method—Uninstalling the Port
1. Uninstall the secondary IDE port

To do that, open Device Manager as follows. Right-click on My Computer, select Properties, click on the Hardware tag, click on the Device Manager button, click on the plus sign to the left of IDE ATA/ATAPI Controller, right-click on Secondary IDE Channel, click on Uninstall. Deactivating is not enough.

Reboot to make the changes active and permanent.

After booting Windows will automatically reinstall the IDE channel and the DVD (or CD) drive. This Plug-n-Play process can take a little while, so give it a minute after the boot process finishes.
2. Reactivate DMA

But this is not enough, because unfortunately Windows does not automatically activate DMA on a DVD or CD drive. You have to tell Windows to try to use DMA first.

For that, go to Device Manager again. Right-click on My Computer, select Properties, click on the Hardware tag, click on the Device Manager button, click on the plus sign to the left of IDE ATA/ATAPI Controller, double-click on the secondary IDE channel, click on Extended Settings and change the relevant setting from PIO only to DMA when available.

On Windows NT and 2000 you now have to reboot a second time, but Windows XP applies the change instantly. Then you can go to the same place in Device Manager again and check whether the device is now actually using DMA mode. If so, all is well.
Desensitize Your Computer's IDE Channels

There's a bit more to it. The following article offers a way to reduce the incidence of this problem, although it still doesn't solve it altogether.

IDE ATA and ATAPI Disks Use PIO Mode After Multiple Time-Out or CRC Errors Occur
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=817472

Do read this article because it contains a useful long-term workaround. But you have to go through the procedure described here to re-enable DMA first. Assuming you've done that, insert the ResetErrorCountersOnSuccess registry values mentioned in this article into both the primary and the secondary IDE port registry keys as described.

Unfortunately this is only a half solution, because when you enter an unreadable DVD, you will get 6 errors in a row, and the IDE channel will revert to PIO mode, but at least when you pull out the DVD in time and then insert a good one, the error counter will be reset and it will at least be a bit more difficult for Windows to hobble your IDE drive.
 
alfred. i need you to do an experiment.
try recording and playing back using the on board sound card ONLY.
tell me if that works and you get lots of tracks. if you do then its the usb sound device thats the problem probably. people have had quite a few probs with some usb audio devices.
also try this. my sequencer is powertracks. i dont want you to get it as cool edit pro is good. but just as an experiment download it from pgmusic.com and if you look in the menus it will tell you how many tracks you can run on your machine. if you see 48 plus then this tells me your machine is fine now dma is set up and once again its probably the usb.
also if you go into control panel tell me if you have usb 1 or usb 2.
if you have the former then this could explain the issues your getting possibly. the other thing i would try is a pci slot based sound card
and see if your probs go away. DONT put anything else in the pci slots other than the sound card if you go this route.
i REALLY NEED TO KNOW if currently you have any cards in your pci slots.
but its likely the usb device. just tell me the results of your tests.
you have a system that should do loads of tracks.
 
Manning's right ... USB has problems keeping up sustained data transfer - so even though USB 2.0 is quicker in bursts than Firewire (480mbps to 400mbps), Firewire still works out quicker as it can maintain high throughput ...
 
manning1 said:
alfred. i need you to do an experiment.
try recording and playing back using the on board sound card ONLY.
tell me if that works and you get lots of tracks. if you do then its the usb sound device thats the problem probably. people have had quite a few probs with some usb audio devices.
also try this. my sequencer is powertracks. i dont want you to get it as cool edit pro is good. but just as an experiment download it from pgmusic.com and if you look in the menus it will tell you how many tracks you can run on your machine. if you see 48 plus then this tells me your machine is fine now dma is set up and once again its probably the usb.
also if you go into control panel tell me if you have usb 1 or usb 2.
if you have the former then this could explain the issues your getting possibly. the other thing i would try is a pci slot based sound card
and see if your probs go away. DONT put anything else in the pci slots other than the sound card if you go this route.
i REALLY NEED TO KNOW if currently you have any cards in your pci slots.
but its likely the usb device. just tell me the results of your tests.
you have a system that should do loads of tracks.


thx manning!!!

I pulled the plug on the USB1.1 card ... and performance improved noticable

(the good news :-)

before (w/ both cards "armed"), the cpu gauge went up to 100% as soon as i started doing a background mix (premixing in order to hear all trax and FX) and wouldnt come down anymore.

however, I still get cpu loads of 70-100 % (fluctuating) w/ just a couple of trax playing.

I also ran SISO Sandra, and it reported that my VIA 'AT97 integrated soundcard does NOT support bus mastering. --> b.mast. is the same as DMA, right? ... could this be the problem?? that my integrated sound card doesnt "relieve" the cpu???


I will try the program you mentioned tonight or tomorrow - and keep you posted -

ahhh... pci: video (radeon7000), hdd controller, usb card - very little in general

again, thx.
alfred
 
AlfredB said:
could this be the problem?? that my integrated sound card doesnt "relieve" the cpu???
Yes indeed. Onboard sound chips are mainly just routers, that is, they send the sound to and fro. They have very little hardware processing, like software modems, so everything gets dumped onto the processor. It seems unlikely you'd have sever problems with onboard sound, but I would recommend picking up at least a cheap actual sound card. Even a cheap Soundblaster would do, although M-Audio Audiophiles can be had for £60 British money now, so you could pick one up for less than a hundred bucks maybe?
 
alfred - that usb 1 was one issue.
if i'm reading you right and i dont use fancy graphics carsds - as i dont want to interfere with the pci audio - try this - assuming your motherbd has on board graphics and if your using a graphics card in a pci slot - try this as an experiment.
take out the pci graphics card. and use on board video - this is what i do.
SOME FANCY but not all video pci cards HOG the bus thus causing a problem
for audio throughput. ive seen many gamers get caught like this who want to use their pc for gaming AND DAW.
from what ive heard so far it seems you have an older amd motherboard - is this correct ? would like to know what mbd and chipset your running. how old is this system ? did you get it used ?
 
1st of all:

thx to all who answered.

In order to avoid cross-threading - I will open a new thread on the soundcard topic

salu2
Alfred
 
I'm surprised you have a PCI graphics card - are you sure it's not AGP?
 
manning1 said:
also get the tech to set you up as a network server rather than desktop.
.

Hi Manning,

Just what is the benefit of doing as you have suggested above? This is why I want to know: I just bought a newer computer (HP AMD 3200+ Athlon/ 512MB/2.20GHz/160GB 7200RPM harddrive) and am desireful of using it in conjunction with my MotifES7 & SONAR Producer program. If your suggestion would help in my situation please forward info (if at all possible) as to how to go about setting it up.

THANX
 
nalstom ...
control panel.click on system icon.
you then click on performance then file system button.
by the way instead of huge drives putting windows plus your apps for audio on ONE BIG DRIVE. its best to run two drives.
windows on one and your tracks on the other hd.
setting to network server might not make as much diff these days as the processors/drives have become so powerfull.
seems to make some diff on older machines though.
look for a utility called dskbench. good for checking drives before you buy them. gives you a rough idea of tracks/thruput etc. hth.
that athlon of yours should do an easy 60 to 80 tracks btw.
make sure your hd dma is enabled. very important for audio.
some retailers forget to set it.
 
Manning,

Thanks much.

Yes, I have been hearing much talk as to the benefit of having dual hard-drives, and am looking into exploring that venture just as soon as finances permit. I don't have an extra bay in my computer (being under the assumption that a bay slot would be the only setting place for another drive) for an internal one, so it looks as if an external unit is my one and only option. I know little about these matters - as you may have already surmised :) - and would like to know how you feel about the difference in USB 2.0 and Firewire, concerning this particular application.

Thanx again.
 
well i would need to know your plans. if you want toms of inputs to the pc for example. or just stereo.
most folks seem quite happy with audiophle or delta pci sound cards.
if were me i'd stay away from any usb. maybe down the road there will be a usb3 or whatever.
if you want to take a gamble tracertek.com have the maya mk2 for 100 buks i think. 4 input and does 24 bit.
old saying in computer circles i run with. dont push envelopes.
hence my pci sound card recommendation.
if you got the bucks maybe look at rme or lynx. it doesnt get much better.
unless you spend your kids inheritance.
but i'm sure even the maya will sound good. if it works ok with your chipset and motherboard. it would be kind of interesting to do blind shoot outs of a maya versus a lynx. i wonder how many normal people would notice much. diff.
 
Manning's right, yet again! My experience of USB has been patchy at best, which may be Windows' fault, the device's, or even the user's, but suffice to say I have not encountered or heard of similar problems with Firewire.
 
you know noisedude fyi - awhile back i had a number of discussions with mbd manufacturers about making the on board sound chips better.
had no disagreement. i explained the issues carefully.
you know all it needs is a smart mbd manufacturer to put 4 or 8 low latency nice sounding in/outs/ada on the mbd and it would be highly beneficial to musicians.
and not have to worry about all the issues.
i suggest if musicians want better products they tell the mbd manufactuers.
then no more worrying about sound add ons.
 
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