Bass Amp for Recording

[cusebassman]

Hello all - I've been recording electric bass DI-only up til now. First I was recording it straight into a Tascam 2488, and then when I upgraded my outboard pres and compressors, I started recording through a JDK Audio preamp and compressor and then into the 2488. The ultimate sound isn't bad, per se - the basses I'm using both have active preamps with 3-band EQ, so I can taylor the sound pretty well so it sits under a mix. I am having a few issues though:

1) I don't much enjoy the tone of the fretless 6-string Carvin bass I have when run through either of the above setups. Even with onboard EQ, I'd like more tone shaping before recording.

2) Even when playing my fretted 5 string (Ibanez SR485) with a pick, there is little definition to the bass sitting in a mix. While this is often desirable, there are occassions where I'd again like more tone shaping possibilities when the bass should stand out more.

So my question is, in an untreated apartment where I could potentially play through an amp at moderate volume to record, would it make sense to get a bass amp and mic it, or get a more advanced bass DI with amp modeling, etc? If you suggest either, please feel free to make specific recommendations. I'd be happy spending 500-600 on this, but probably not much more since I am getting by *okay* for the time-being with straight DI.

 

[Track Rat]

It my humble opinion, you'd probably be better off with the DI option. I find you have to get the volume up to get the cab involved when miking. In an apartment, that could be a problem. Now which DI? Don't know. The only modeler I've ever had my hands on was a bass POD and I didn't care for it. Personally, I mic and get a DI out of the head (the volume isn't an issue where I record). I'm sure someone will jump in here soon with some suggestions on DI's, modelers, etc.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Well ...... personally I'm gonna say go with a decent modeler.
Miking up a bass amp can be tricky, in my experience, and you'll find it easier to get a sound dialed in with a good modeler.

And to me the last thing I want is a bass direct into the board which is what you started doing and are still sorta doing. Before I'd do that I'd use my little guitar practice amp ...... that's how much I personally don't like the sound of a DI bass.
They really need to go thru a modeler of some kind.

EDIT Track Rat and I are agreeing ..... we're using the DI term slightly differently ..... I'm meaning to run direct without any processing. He just means not a mic'd amp.

As for suggestions ...... Sansamp is pretty much an industry standard ........ there's a reason. A decent amount of touring bassists even use them live. They have a buncha models and I haven't kept up but just scope out reviews ..... last time I checked they were all analog. If they've added digital models I'd tend to stay with the analog ones.

 

[cusebassman]

I suspected the best route would a more advanced DI box with perhaps amp modeling, since I can't imagine mic'ing a bass amp in an untreated environment is going to work well at all. Now the question is, what bass modelers do more than the SansAmp Bass DI? I got one of those, but since all it has is gain and 3 band EQ, it was doing nothing more for me than the active preamp onboard both my basses does. Ended up sending it back.

Perhaps one viable option is to look into decent bass combo amps with modeling built-in, and using a line-out to the recorder.

 

[mixsit]

The difficulties I see shaping, making bass tracks fit or work better I can lay directly at the players hands. So much so I question the notions of 'more/better eq etc. There is the partial improvements of adding saturation for it to 'speak better, and an amp/speaker tone is a plus for options, but really, so much of it is where and how it's picked for example.
But I'm still open, hopfull though for ways to fix this (..that.

 

[Lt. Bob]

I suspected the best route would a more advanced DI box with perhaps amp modeling, since I can't imagine mic'ing a bass amp in an untreated environment is going to work well at all. Now the question is, what bass modelers do more than the SansAmp Bass DI? I got one of those, but since all it has is gain and 3 band EQ, it was doing nothing more for me than the active preamp onboard both my basses does. Ended up sending it back.

.

well ..... not really. It was also coupling the bass properly to the recording input in terms of impedance matching. Strcitly speaking all any bass amp has is gain and EQ just like the Sansamp .......... but the bass amp input is designed to match with the input loading of a bass, again .... like the Sansamp.

 

[cusebassman]

well ..... not really. It was also coupling the bass properly to the recording input in terms of impedance matching. Strcitly speaking all any bass amp has is gain and EQ just like the Sansamp .......... but the bass amp input is designed to match with the input loading of a bass, again .... like the Sansamp.

You said that you really dislike the sound of a bass strictly DI'd into a recording device. Between the hi-Z input on the tascam 2488 I was using and the 3-band EQ in the active preamp onboard my bass, I wasn't getting much of a difference in tonal possibilities between using or not using the SansAmp Bass DI inbetween. From what I can tell, the combination of multi-band EQ and the fact that the recorder was performing the proper impedance matching meant I was getting an approximation of what the SansAmp Bass DI is supposed to do. I've looked at the higher-end SansAmp bass products now, and they also seem to basically act as advanced EQ with impedance matching, etc. I should try one of the more advanced to see if it offers more variety in shaping the over-all bass sound.

The difficulties I see shaping, making bass tracks fit or work better I can lay directly at the players hands. So much so I question the notions of 'more/better eq etc. There is the partial improvements of adding saturation for it to 'speak better, and an amp/speaker tone is a plus for options, but really, so much of it is where and how it's picked for example.
But I'm still open, hopfull though for ways to fix this (..that.

Not to say my bass playing skills are great, but after 10+ years of playing, I would hope I can play at least well enough to plunk out the root notes of the chords being played well enough to sit in a mix But I digress...

You both seem to be intimating that for bass, once you get past the instrument and some basic EQ, there are no more steps in shaping the sound of an instrument. And yet, we still seem to make a big deal out of what amp we use for what tone we want. For guitar, amp modelers exist which emulate various guitar amps. Having used such technology, I can say that the same guitar run through a variety of clean emulated amp settings can sound drastically different, and that goes beyond changing low/mid/hi eq settings.

So I guess I got the first part of my question answered - yes, I should most likely stick with direct input / modelers, or at least any option that doesn't involve mic'ing a bass amp. As far as shaping the tone of the instrument beyond 3-band EQ, I'll have to look into more advanced modelers.

 

[grimtraveller]

Don't beat me Mama ! I'm only the bass player......

I feel the opposite. I mean, it depends on what sort of music you're playing and the role of the bass guitar. Is it heavy music with aggressive root note bass ? Heavy rock with smooth bass ? Balladic stuff with thunky fretless booowwwuuunnnggggs in abundance ? Picky and midrangey ? Slappy ? Fingers ? Reggae~low ? Lead~y and improvisational ? Counter melodic ? Almost like a low octave guitar with spunk ? The possibilities are endless. And so are the tones available.
I often mic my bass amp {a Fender bassman 100}. It really depends on what sound I'm after but sometimes, I'll simultaneously play through two amps, or with a Y box, have a 3 way combo of miked amp, line out of amp {either via headphone out for some crackle or line out for some growl} and DI, but not with a box, just straight into my DAW. I blend the three or two as one bass track. Not only do you have the scope of the EQ on the amp and the bass, but within my DAWthere's also EQ possibilities for tone shaping. I also discovered a couple of settings on my Jimi Hendrix pedal work quite nicely on bass. I generally stay away from effects on bass. Even my shitty fretless electro acoustic bass guitar can be utilized as a fake fretless for different tones. And with my amp, you can record it loud or fairly soft. The on board preamps take up the slack when I'm recording at lower volume.
Until the mid 70s when there was more of a standardized way to record the bass, it was a free for all that brought about, in my opinion, the greatest bass tones ever because few engineers really thought about how to capture it as an instrument in it's own right. But that was good. Unwittingly, necesity and ignorance became the Mother of invention.
So I feel that via miking an amp, DI or modellers/effects or some ungodly alliance of the three, groovy bass tones can be gotten.

 

[aaronaycox]

I use a Sansamp Pragrammable. I am primarily a bassist. With this DI box you are able to shape your sound to do just about anything you want it to.

 

[mixsit]

...Not to say my bass playing skills are great, but after 10+ years of playing, I would hope I can play at least well enough to plunk out the root notes of the chords being played well enough to sit in a mix But I digress...

You both seem to be intimating that for bass, once you get past the instrument and some basic EQ, there are no more steps in shaping the sound of an instrument. And yet, we still seem to make a big deal out of what amp we use for what tone we want. For guitar, amp modelers exist which emulate various guitar amps. Having used such technology, I can say that the same guitar run through a variety of clean emulated amp settings can sound drastically different, and that goes beyond changing low/mid/hi eq settings.

So I guess I got the first part of my question answered - yes, I should most likely stick with direct input / modelers, or at least any option that doesn't involve mic'ing a bass amp. As far as shaping the tone of the instrument beyond 3-band EQ, I'll have to look into more advanced modelers.

Yeah, IDK. To me it's an interesting subject.
The primary three tone makers would seem to be the sound of the instrument, how it's picked, then the amp style. Past that EQ is mostly some trim to fit'. (..And I've come to get maybe overly focused on the dynamics/note shape and overetones sides of the question.

Have you worked with bass amps as well? (I wouldn't necessarily toss the idea of trying close micing a small amp/speaker.

2) Even when playing my fretted 5 string (Ibanez SR485) with a pick, there is little definition to the bass sitting in a mix. While this is often desirable, there are occassions where I'd again like more tone shaping possibilities when the bass should stand out more.

We'll run across some that will say don't try or expect punch from the bass. Just squash it and get it elsewhere.

 

[rayc]

Some greatadvice above by most contributors. Grim is on a similar track to myself: In an ideal situation: split the signal - one to a modeller & 1 to a mic'd amp. the two tracks resulting from it would then be blended for optimal goodness.
A bass amp really needs a bit of grunt to sound good to my ears. I often have the option of turning it up if needed.
I also use a modeller just because that sounds right in some circumstances.
My modeller of choice, (Choice defined by what I could choose in my price range) is the Behringer BDI21 - a VERY closely cloned Sansamp and awfully inexpensive without being made as cheaply as I'd have expected.
Definition? Plectrum, round wound strings and a little 4 db peak at 3khz with a Q of 3.
Asll of the above I repeat often & to anyone who'll listen.
Oh, & in terms of that: a bass that sounds great solo'd or when recording PROBABLY won't sound good/defined/right in the mix.

 

[Bryan316]

1) I don't much enjoy the tone of the fretless 6-string Carvin bass I have when run through either of the above setups. Even with onboard EQ, I'd like more tone shaping before recording.

2) Even when playing my fretted 5 string (Ibanez SR485) with a pick, there is little definition to the bass sitting in a mix. While this is often desirable, there are occassions where I'd again like more tone shaping possibilities when the bass should stand out more.

So my question is, in an untreated apartment where I could potentially play through an amp at moderate volume to record, would it make sense to get a bass amp and mic it, or get a more advanced bass DI with amp modeling, etc? If you suggest either, please feel free to make specific recommendations. I'd be happy spending 500-600 on this, but probably not much more since I am getting by *okay* for the time-being with straight DI.

Gonna give the setup I used when recording our demo EP, which I still hold as the BEST my bass tone has ever sounded. I currently use a Tobias Killer B5 and an Ibanez Prestige 1005 both with Bartolini soapbars and preamps. Two great sounding and great playing basses. Yet the tone I got for that recording was a crappy eBay Ibanez SR305 that has never let me down, so it pretty much confirms that you don't need a spectacular bass to get spectacular tone, just the right conditions.

First and foremost, BRAND NEW STRINGS. I am not a player who likes the sound of fresh strings. I like dead, flat, DEEP tone. I want no shimmer, no sparkle, no brightness when I play. However, I was proven WROOOOOONG, MISTER!!! The week before, while doing our pre-production and laying down scratch tracks to the click track, the engineer demanded I get a new set of strings before he even lets me back in the studio. Okay, I'll do it. So I put them on, played on em a little bit each day to stretch them in, and went back.

He was absolutely right. That's all I'm saying. He was RIGHT.

For the actual recording, he used the DI out the back of my Eden WT550B for all the low end depth, and used a Sennheiser MD421 in front of my D212XLT cabinet for the punch growl and attack. After blending them together and very little EQ touchup for the high end, it sounded MONSTROUS. The band purposely left my bass lines hot as hell in the mix because it sounded so powerful and they loved the growly snarl it added to the guitars.

Even on the album we just recorded and are about to release in three weeks, it didn't sound as good as this session did!


So take this for what its worth, and give it a try. New strings, DI output for the lows, and a good mic for punch and the meat-and-potatoes of your tone. You should find good results.

 

[cusebassman]

Some great advice here, I've got a lot to try now. Now to find the time...

 

[cusebassman]

Yeah, IDK. To me it's an interesting subject.
The primary three tone makers would seem to be the sound of the instrument, how it's picked, then the amp style. Past that EQ is mostly some trim to fit'. (..And I've come to get maybe overly focused on the dynamics/note shape and overetones sides of the question.

Have you worked with bass amps as well? (I wouldn't necessarily toss the idea of trying close micing a small amp/speaker.


We'll run across some that will say don't try or expect punch from the bass. Just squash it and get it elsewhere.

For the fretted bass, the tone is pretty close to where I like it for most material. The fretless is more difficult, as the DI sound, even with the onboard EQ played with, is very mid-range-ee and lacks bottom end.

Unfortunately I havent owned a dedicated bass amp in a few years, but I am now looking at some options for trying out suggestions above - using a bass head's line out straight to the board as well as micing a cab with the volume not cranked to the high heavens.

I certainly wasn't trying to come off as defensive or argumentative - I just thought it was a strange concept to think that for guitar, the amp can make all the difference, whereas some might believe that for bass, switching amps isn't going to have as much of an effect on the tone.

 

[mixsit]

.... After blending them together and very little EQ touchup for the high end, it sounded MONSTROUS. The band purposely left my bass lines hot as hell in the mix because it sounded so powerful and they loved the growly snarl it added to the guitars. ...

Yes! That will frikin make my day! When they lay there and carry the load.

I go through a phase every once in a while and just marvel at the rolls bass and their tones will play on classic rock radio for example. Gota love it.

 

[Bryan316]

The perfect tone, as I discovered, is when the guitars and bass, playing the same riff, SOUNDS AS ONE. Yet, when they separate, and start harmonizing and playing overlapping parts, they SOUND COMPLETELY SEPARATE.

Best example I could give, is the album Clayman, by In Flames. That there is some flawless blending of heavy guitars with defined, deep bass. The ever-so-desired Wall of Sound, yet they break apart and sound as three separate instruments when they want to.

So remember, give your recording all the tone you can.

It is better to dial down what you don't need, than trying to dial up what you don't have.

 

[mixsit]

...I certainly wasn't trying to come off as defensive or argumentative - I just thought it was a strange concept to think that for guitar, the amp can make all the difference, whereas some might believe that for bass, switching amps isn't going to have as much of an effect on the tone.

Not at all. Just some good exchange.
Thought about your guitar vs. bass amps' there. In my est, a bass rig is certainly part of the sound
(I put #3 there) - and vibe. Live for sure, recording too.
Maybe with guitar the amp gets involved a bit deeper, maybe more often than into being ‘part of the instrument/sound?

 

[Lt. Bob]

well .... when you get right down to it there's really lots of different ways to do all this and it comes down to personal preferences.
I've heard great bass that was done D.I. regardless of whether I like it or not.

I've heard great mic'd amps and combos of both ..... modelers of every kind one person or another has made sound great.
So it ends up being a matter of finding what works for you. Suggestions can be things to try out but just cause it works for me doesn't mean it's gonna be your favorite.
I'm a big believer in 'no rules'.

I have a great bass rig and no volume problems but without a decent room I pretty much use modelers.

 

[Bryan316]

I've heard great bass that was done D.I. regardless of whether I like it or not.

Exactly. I know how I like MY tone. But there are plenty of recordings and other bassists I know, who I'd love to be able to steal their tone every once in a while! But tone is so very personal. Such a subjective topic to discuss.

Suggestions can be things to try out but just cause it works for me doesn't mean it's gonna be your favorite.
I'm a big believer in 'no rules'.

This is the secret. That there is NO secret. It's whatever you DISCOVER that gets what you want. I know bassists whose rigs are 12 space racks, and everything inside that rack is used to get them their tone. Yet the next guy has just a single amp, with a pedal board stuffed with EQ's and stomp boxes to tweak it how he needs. Then I look at my rig, it's my bass, cable, amp, cabinet, nothing else, and I'm perfectly content. How? Why? Who the hell knows any more! But at least for me, it makes me happy as hell.

 

[somegeezer]

Then I look at my rig, it's my bass, cable, amp, cabinet, nothing else, and I'm perfectly content. How? Why? Who the hell knows any more! But at least for me, it makes me happy as hell.

Same here.

As for a reply to th OP, I use the direct out from my GK head, with the post EQ button in. That way, I have close to my stage sound [just without my cabs].

As you;ve also found yourself, it really depends on the very bass you use. One of my basses is real dep and growly, where the other one can almost shimmer on the top end. I think most of that comes down to them having different stings, different pickups and even differently set preamp EQs. They are such different monsters, but perfect for each job they are best at.