Basic question about guitar effects pedals...

[gene12586]

I use several guitar effects pedals (a couple analog and a Line 6 HX Stomp). I've been taught that the "level" knob/parameter for an effect simply controls the volume of that effect. But honestly sometimes it seems like it's more than that. For example, take distortion effects - when I turn the level down on some distortion effects it sounds like I'm losing more than just volume (e.g., the arbitrato fuzz effect on the HX Stomp) - it sounds like I'm also actually losing some of the effect itself (in this case, distortion)... I don't know if it's in my head or not, but just to be safe I will typically leave the level of distortion effects quite high and simply use a volume pedal to lower the volume of the effect once I need it in whatever song I'm playing.
Thoughts? Is it just in my head?

 

[rob aylestone]

It’s in your head. Seriously, you’ve been taught generality, not accuracy. Guitar effects are a classic example of people, dreaming up great sounding gizmos that often behave strangely but sound great. You say just to be safe? Safe from what? Let’s be honest. Guitar pedals often generate huge amounts of noise, that need another device to shut off, and a Les Paul higher output overdrives them in ways a Strat cannot. Gain structure, which we pay great attention to in a mic audio chain for minimum noise and distortion matters little with guitar pedals. Guitarists with loads of pedals spend hours experimenting with the order. There is one rule in pedals. When it sounds good, it IS good. How you do it cannot be described, because 7 pedals is lottery numbers in terms of possibilities and options. Even two pedals means a lot of possible variations. If it sounds good, that is good. I’m not even sure another guitarist with the same devices could listen and recreate your sound. They’d get close, but if you zeroed the knobs, and they played your guitar, it would be different.

 

[gene12586]

It’s in your head. Seriously, you’ve been taught generality, not accuracy. Guitar effects are a classic example of people, dreaming up great sounding gizmos that often behave strangely but sound great. You say just to be safe? Safe from what? Let’s be honest. Guitar pedals often generate huge amounts of noise, that need another device to shut off, and a Les Paul higher output overdrives them in ways a Strat cannot. Gain structure, which we pay great attention to in a mic audio chain for minimum noise and distortion matters little with guitar pedals. Guitarists with loads of pedals spend hours experimenting with the order. There is one rule in pedals. When it sounds good, it IS good. How you do it cannot be described, because 7 pedals is lottery numbers in terms of possibilities and options. Even two pedals means a lot of possible variations. If it sounds good, that is good. I’m not even sure another guitarist with the same devices could listen and recreate your sound. They’d get close, but if you zeroed the knobs, and they played your guitar, it would be different.

Thanks Rob, points taken.

 

[VomitHatSteve]

Pedals aren't particularly standardized. A volume knob is probably going to be master volume of the output signal, but it doesn't have to be.
It could also be volume of the input signal before the effect circuit, in which case it will have a huge effect on the tone of everything else. As Rob said, gain staging is important, and where and when and how much you add gain to your signal has a major effect on everything afterwards.

 

[RFR]

One thing the output knob of the pedal will affect is how hard your preamp in the amplifier is hit. The higher your pedal output volume is, the hotter the signal going into your amp.

This can definitely change how it sounds

You can have your amp go from clean to the edge of breakup, or from edge of breakup into full saturation.

If you roll down the output level on the pedal, your pedal gain is still the same, but it’s not hitting the amp as hard. So now it will ‘seem’ that the pedal is not as overdriven, when in actuality it’s the amp that’s not as overdriven.

As it’s been said before, if it sounds good........it IS good.

 

[markmann]

I currently have six pedals on my board, not including the passive volume pedal, and those six all have level controls. There are three distortion type pedals, a boost and two multi effects pedals. I play though a variety of amps and the level of every pedal needs to be set for each of the amps because the volume level is different for each one. Why that is I have no idea... it's just how it's always been for me. So I automatically make adjustments every time I play though a different amp and I never hear any perceptible difference in my tone or level of distortion once I have my gains set to how I want them.

 

[RFR]

I currently have six pedals on my board, not including the passive volume pedal, and those six all have level controls. There are three distortion type pedals, a boost and two multi effects pedals. I play though a variety of amps and the level of every pedal needs to be set for each of the amps because the volume level is different for each one. Why that is I have no idea... it's just how it's always been for me. So I automatically make adjustments every time I play though a different amp and I never hear any perceptible difference in my tone or level of distortion once I have my gains set to how I want them.

That’s because you’ve figured out your gain-staging

 

[gene12586]

Thank you all. This is making a lot more sense now.
So trust your ears and go with what sounds good (and in effect you figure out your gain-staging).

 

[gene12586]

One thing the output knob of the pedal will affect is how hard your preamp in the amplifier is hit. The higher your pedal output volume is, the hotter the signal going into your amp.

This can definitely change how it sounds

You can have your amp go from clean to the edge of breakup, or from edge of breakup into full saturation.

If you roll down the output level on the pedal, your pedal gain is still the same, but it’s not hitting the amp as hard. So now it will ‘seem’ that the pedal is not as overdriven, when in actuality it’s the amp that’s not as overdriven.

As it’s been said before, if it sounds good........it IS good.

Also, one more thing just to make sure I'm totally understanding correctly. What you're saying applies to a pedal of any effect type, right?
So you took the example of a distortion pedal when saying that if you turn down the level of the pedal the pedal gain is still the same but it's not hitting the preamp in the amp as hard, and so you might hear less distortion in the final tone coming from the amp.
The same would apply to a pedal of another effect type, correct? So if we take a delay pedal and we turn down the level of the pedal, the amount of delay coming from the pedal is still the same, but it's not hitting the preamp in the amp as hard, and so you might hear less delay in the final tone coming from the amp. Is that right?

 

[RFR]

Also, one more thing just to make sure I'm totally understanding correctly. What you're saying applies to a pedal of any effect type, right?
So you took the example of a distortion pedal when saying that if you turn down the level of the pedal the pedal gain is still the same but it's not hitting the preamp in the amp as hard, and so you might hear less distortion in the final tone coming from the amp.
The same would apply to a pedal of another effect type, correct? So if we take a delay pedal and we turn down the level of the pedal, the amount of delay coming from the pedal is still the same, but it's not hitting the preamp in the amp as hard, and so you might hear less delay in the final tone coming from the amp. Is that right?

Well, here on this Strymon there’s no level control but a mix control.




Most time based effects don’t have a level. The mix control determines how much of the effect Is blended with dry signal.

I was referring to gain pedals (overdrive, distortion, fuzz, boost)

 

[gene12586]

Well, here on this Strymon there’s no level control but a mix control.

View attachment 128019


Most time based effects don’t have a level. The mix control determines how much of the effect Is blended with dry signal.

I was referring to gain pedals (overdrive, distortion, fuzz, boost)

Aaaaaah, yes, silly me. Right, wasn't thinking clearly. Forgot about the mix knobs.
Thank you.

 

[markmann]

So you took the example of a distortion pedal when saying that if you turn down the level of the pedal the pedal gain is still the same but it's not hitting the preamp in the amp as hard, and so you might hear less distortion in the final tone coming from the amp.

You can have the gain anywhere you want but I set my levels to work with my guitar volume when all pedals are off.

 

[RFR]

You can have the gain anywhere you want but I set my levels to work with my guitar volume when all pedals are off.

So you’re never pushing the front end of the amp?

That’s very good for getting back to a clean tone without any volume changes.

I’ll do that on some amps, and then other Amps really shine when I hit the front end harder.

Here’s a secret weapon I have for boosting the amp but still giving me a clean tone.



For smaller wattage tube amps, it takes it to the point where the amp is starting to break up and is very responsive to pick attack, volume changes on the guitar.

All at a reasonable volume level where my drummer doesn’t get pissed at me

 

[markmann]

So you’re never pushing the front end of the amp?

That’s very good for getting back to a clean tone without any volume changes.

I’ll do that on some amps, and then other Amps really shine when I hit the front end harder.

Here’s a secret weapon I have for boosting the amp but still giving me a clean tone.

View attachment 128022

For smaller wattage tube amps, it takes it to the point where the amp is starting to break up and is very responsive to pick attack, volume changes on the guitar.

All at a reasonable volume level where my drummer doesn’t get pissed at me

That's what my boost is for

 

[rob aylestone]

Isnt the whole idea with pedals that they offer all these amazing ways to connects them? With guitars probably being the only creative use of distortion most of us ever deliberately create, we have infinite ways of doing it. Normally, recording folk spend hours reducing distortion, so with guitars, people indulge, and discover what would really be faults in any other scenario.

 

[RFR]

Isnt the whole idea with pedals that they offer all these amazing ways to connects them? With guitars probably being the only creative use of distortion most of us ever deliberately create, we have infinite ways of doing it. Normally, recording folk spend hours reducing distortion, so with guitars, people indulge, and discover what would really be faults in any other scenario.

With guitars, there’s varying degrees of distortion . Much like spices in cooking to produce different flavors. Some mild some strong.

“It’s all about the sounds”....... I believe Jimi Hendrix said that once.

And yes, it’s interesting how we shy away from distortion, and even try to completely eliminate it in most recording, but embrace and pursue it in guitar tones

 

[rob aylestone]

And the player, of course. I’ve watched a tribute band set up with identical guitar and pedals laid out the same as photos of the original guitarist, with the same amp and fail to quite get there. I often look at the huge pedal board people and wonder if somebody zeroed the whole lot, if they’d ever get the sound back?

 

[ecc83]

Some basic 'pedal facts'. These only apply to analogue pedals, those clever digital designers are in league with Old Nick and can do magic!

1) The terms "gain" and "volume" are mixed and messed up in the Guitar Electronic World whereas they have a precise meaning in audio electronics. "gain" control is effected by changing the feedback* around an amplifier, usually an 'op amp' and has a maximum and minimum value the minimum being most often 'one' or just a few dBs. "Volume" control is done with a potentiometer and 'taps off' a portion of the signal. Usually they can fade to zero signal but some designs restrict the range to fool you they are GAIN controls! These facts apply to guitar amplifiers as well as pedals.

2)Git pedals fall into two main groups...
Buffered and "True Bypass". A (properly) buffered pedal will have a high input impedance, preff' one meg Ohm (1,000,000 Ohms) and a low, preff less than 1kOhm output impedance. Those properties mean that the internal circuits are NOT affected by different guitar pup configurations nor the settings of V and T pots. The low output Z means long cables will not reduce the treble (aka "tone suck")

"TB" pedals have none of those attractive properties and are to be avoided IMO. Some people like them though...***k knows why!

3) There are only really two basic ways to distort an audio signal. A "clipper" circuit where diodes are placed in parallel across the signal path and the audio is distorted by the non-linearity of the diode's forward conduction characteristic. Next a 'non linear feedback' circuit, usually around an op amp again using the NL part of the diode**. These basic distortion mechanisms can be almost infinitely modified by the spectrum of the signal fed in as shaped by tone pots. Tone controls too can have a vast range of 'turnover frequencies' and limits. One annoyance? Many lazy or ill informed people call ALL distortion circuits "diode clippers" They bloody AIN'T!

From the above I hope it can be seen that the OD pedal is a pretty basic device but capable of being made in almost infinite circuit variety. As Rob says "if you get the sound you want/like, good show" Don't pay silly money. They are ALL just op amps, transistors, caps and resistors! No magic involved.


*Almost always Negative Feedback but Positive Feedback is quite possible depending upon design.
*The "diode" can be several in series. Usually boggy s Silicons but can be Germanium or FETS even LEDs. Many many possible circuit permutations. One range of pedals (cough!) gets almost 100% of its OD sound from a double triode.


Dave.

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

wouldnt you want the distortion/Od pedal in the FX loop?

 

[ecc83]

wouldnt you want the distortion/Od pedal in the FX loop?

There is a bit of a "protocol" that overdrive and compressor type pedals go into the front end* and 'timebase' FX, reverb, chorus etc, go in the FX loop...but as with all things 'geeetar' YMMV.

*Bods may no know it but with a valve amp they are driving the first stage into distortion, something a guitar can rarely do on its own.

Dave.