Balanced vs. unbalanced -- wiring DMP3 and RME Multiface?

adam

New member
This may be a dumb question but I have always been confused by balanced and unbalanced wiring. The DMP3 has balanced outs and the Multiface has Balanced I/Os -- soooooo -- I should used balanced connections, right?;)

Are these 'special' cables, or the same as I've used for guitar pedals/racks, etc.?

Please be kind to me.:confused:
 
Yes, balanced would be the way to go. It looks like it has two 1/4" TRS outs? If it does, that makes it easy. Just get a 1/4" patch cable, making sure it is a three conductor one (it will have two black, green, or white lines instead of one on the connector), and plug it in. If it only has an xlr out, go buy an xlr to balanced 1/4" cable. This will have an XLR connector on one end, and a balanced 1/4" connector on the other end. Hence the name. Hope this helps.

-Tyler
 
This is probably more than you wanted to know, but here you go. Balanced audio is a method of eliminating RF (Radio Frequency) noise from audio cables. This works by sending the exact same signal down two separate conductors (wires), with the polarity of one signal reversed. Both signals will pick up RF exactly the way they would if the line was unbalanced, but that is OK. It will be taken care of later. When the signal arrives at the input of the destination device, the first thing to happen is the signal is decoded. One signal (the original, unchanged signal) is left as it is. The other signal (the signal with its polarity reversed) has its polarity reversed (again) so it is once again in line with the original signal. These two signals are then combined. Both signals pickup the same RF interference in the cable. However, because one of the signals had its polarity reversed, its RF interference has a negative polarity, while the other signal has a positive polarity. The noise on the in the two signals cancels itself out, while the original signal reinforces itself.

There is no extra shielding, nor is there any unusual amount of insulation involved in balanced audio cables. In fact, as long as a cable is shield and insulated to a fairly basic level, adding more doesn't help at all. The most important factor in a balanced audio cable is the amount of copper carrying the actual signal. This is why the best mic cables (Mogami, etc.) double the number of conductors, using smaller gauge wire. Two conductors are soldered to each of the signal connections (hot and cold). This allows more copper to be encased in less insulation without affecting the diameter and stiffness of the cable. A stiff cable is more susceptible to kinks and other damage.

When dealing with 1/4" TRS phono plugs, the normal connection is:
TIP = hot (normal signal)
RING = cold (polarity reversed signal)
Sleeve = ground/shield
If you connect an unbalanced (single conductor) cable to a balanced jack, you end up connecting the cold leg of the signal to ground, which is fine, although you loose the benefits of balanced audio. You also will have 6dB less signal. This then requires more amplification to drive the destination hardware, which raises the noise floor.

The normal standard for XLR cables is:
Pin 1 = Ground
Pin 2 = Hot
Pin 3 = Cold
Unfortunately, not all manufacturers of balanced gear maintain this standard. This is particularly true amongst microphone manufactures. It is common to find gear with pins 2 and 3 reversed. Fortunately, this doesn?t matter for audio, as your ear can not tell if a sound has a negative or positive polarity, only if two versions of the same sound have a different polarity. (I work as a lighting designer, and I have run into a situation where reversing pin 2 and 3 is a major problem. There is one company, Martin, whose DMX protocol is out of polarity with the rest of the industry, and the computers which run these lights can not handle the polarity mismatch.)

It is also important to note that once the signal is inside of a device, it is not balanced. Balanced audio is ONLY for transmission between devices. Only the inputs and outputs of a device are balanced.

You will notice that I never refered to anything being "out of phase," or "reversing phase." Phase is not what is changed when a signal is balanced. Polarity is changed. The confussion comes from the fact that, when you look at a graph of a reversed polarity sine wave (see attachment), and compare it too the original signal, they look (after the first half cycle) exactly like a pair of sine waves which are 180 degrees out of phase. Natural sounds (and sine waves do not exist in nature) are far more complicated than sine waves. They change over time, so the 180 degree shift doesn't act (or look) exactly like a polarity shift. In a 180 degree phase shift, there will be slight diferences, although soniclly it will act very similar. With a polarity shift, every time there is a positive peek in the original signal, there is an exactly equal negative peek.

Too put it another way, a difference of phase is an issue of time, and a difference of polarity is an electrical issue. The two are not actually physically related, though they are soniclly related.

And one last phase nominclature confussion. There is a tendency (even among professionals) to call all phase incoherances "problems." This is not actually true. Some phase issues are problems, and sound quite bad. It is, unfortunatly, impossible to tell which sound bad and which sound good until you have tried them. With considerable amounts of experiance, you start to have some idea of which is which, but even then the best thing to is listen. It is always a good idea, if you are using many microphones, to try inverting the polarity to see which way sounds better.

And now I have (as usual) spoken at far too great of length, so I think I should shut the hell up.

Light
 

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Wow!! Light, thanks for the detailed reponse. Thanks to you too tyler. Now I am educated. :D

So I unscrewed a few of the 1/4" patch cables I have and saw that some had 2 wires and others had one. So looks like I will need some more balanced cables.

Another dumb question. How do I tell if they are balanced when I buy them, short of unscrewing them. Will it say 'balanced'?
 
how to tell it's a balanced cable

hey adam...i believe the way to tell you're getting a balanced cable is by looking at the tip's shaft....there'll be a white, black
or green line around it...if there's one it's unbalanced, if there's
two lines it's balanced....sound right people?
 
I wonder if that unit has an unballanced input, because if it does the !/4" output would also be unballanced, which would make it ok to use unballanced cables.

Thats the rub. because the RNC is definately unballanced and there is no advantage to unessessary conversion.
 
darrin_h2000 said:

Thats the rub. because the RNC is definately unballanced and there is no advantage to unessessary conversion.


Unless you have to run a long cable

Scott
 
Tyler, I apologize, I misread your post and thought you were referring to wire, not rings on the tip. I see that now, and realize then that none of my cables are balanced. Thanks
 
Huh?

Am I just missing something?

darrin_h2000 said:
I wonder if that unit has an unballanced input,
because if it does the !/4" output would also be unballanced,

"That unit"? Which unit is "that unit"? (Incidentally, there are units which have balanced inputs and unbalanced outputs (or vice versa).

Thats the rub. because the RNC is definately unballanced and there is no advantage to unessessary conversion.

How did the RNC get in here?

And I'm not sure where the notion of "conversion" came in. It's pretty easy to convert a balanced line to unbalanced, though I can't see why anyone would think there's any "advantage" to doing this (except, of course, if you don't have any choice, when there's not a lot of reason to worry about it, since ... well, you don't have any choice). In order to convert an unbalanced line to a balanced line, you'll have to stick a transformer on the output device or the input device, or both. There is some advantage to that, potentially, though whether it's worth the cost and fooling with the transformer is another question.
 
yeah tyler...if you'll re-read the order the discussion was relayed you'll notice that he asked after you had already said it...that's why i repeated....jerk.

i.e. how do i tell if they are balanced when i buy them short of unscrewing them?...

drop the attitude dewd
 
i'm sorry if it came off that way, that's not how i meant it.

usually if the cable is XLR then it's probably balanced, and if it's quarter inch, with three conductors (you can tell this because there will be three colored lines on the end of the plug), then it is also balanced.

if you have xlr to 1/4" with only 1 line, then its unbalanced, but if the 1/4" has two lines it is balanced.
 
I am offended you took 3 stars away from me. I mean, 5 stars, well, that is 3 more than 2. Don't worry, I bumped it up.

FYI, I just picked up my balanced cables. Looking forward to trying everything out this weekend. Thanks again for the responses (and...er...the attitude;) )
 
I guess this thread is deserving of three. IT:S JUST THAT THIS THREAD HAS BEEN ANSWERED BEFORE> AND I"M NOT YELLING< IT"S THESE FUCKING STICKY KEYS IN WINDOWS XP! YOU HOLD SHIFT DOWN FOR * THAT"S SUPPOSED TO BE EIGHT< AND IT KEEPS IT DOWN FOREVER DAMMIT!
 
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