Background hiss noise in a professional mic. Do i need a pre amp?

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I got a reply that a pre amp is needed. Rather it isn't necessary that the pre amp is expensive. A cheap one will do the work too. Is this right?

Okay, going back to some basics here.

Any time you use a microphone, you need a mic pre amp. The output from a microphone is incredibly quiet, generally measured in thousandths of a volt--because it only has the energy of the sound vibrations in the air to drive it. A pre amp raises this level to something that can be used in normal audio gear.

However, you do NOT necessarily need a separate pre amp. Any of the audio interfaces recommended so far have built in pre amps so you can plug an XLR mic straight into them. The interfaces raise the level of the mic as required then convert the signal to digits to feed into the computer.

A cheap pre amp and a gamer's sound card are never going to do a proper job of what you want.
 
Run with this.
So many people read that then come back with "yeah but..blah blah soundblaster blah blah 3.5mm jack"

Bobbsy has mailed it for ya.
 
Okay, going back to some basics here.

Any time you use a microphone, you need a mic pre amp. The output from a microphone is incredibly quiet, generally measured in thousandths of a volt--because it only has the energy of the sound vibrations in the air to drive it. A pre amp raises this level to something that can be used in normal audio gear.

However, you do NOT necessarily need a separate pre amp. Any of the audio interfaces recommended so far have built in pre amps so you can plug an XLR mic straight into them. The interfaces raise the level of the mic as required then convert the signal to digits to feed into the computer.

A cheap pre amp and a gamer's sound card are never going to do a proper job of what you want.

I'm curious, what is defined by a cheap pre amp? The kind you get in interfaces such as the Roland quad/octa capture, and the KA6? Or are those 'good' pre amps?

In that case, is a separate preamp a must if you want really quality recordings? Just genuinely curious. I like to learn about these things.
 
I'm curious, what is defined by a cheap pre amp? The kind you get in interfaces such as the Roland quad/octa capture, and the KA6? Or are those 'good' pre amps?

In that case, is a separate preamp a must if you want really quality recordings? Just genuinely curious. I like to learn about these things.

Don't wanna speak for Bobbsy but I think his emphasis was on the gamer sound card more than the cheap preamp.

The point is that feeding your audio through a gamer sound card is not ideal, whereas a dedicated audio interface is.

Many interfaces have great preamps built in. Apogee and Rme are two. I like presonus stuff as well.

A separate preamp isn't necessarily a must for quality recording.
 
A cheap preamp, is one that doesn't cost much. Even that being said, a cheap (inexpensive) preamp in a dedicated audio interface, will be way better than a stock, built-in, soundcard. Even the higher priced surround or gaming cards, do not have good enough preamps worth using.

It has been said around here, that anything under $600 range, for a preamp, will not make much of a difference above that of the preamps that come built in to an external interface. I have a $1500 Vintech X73 that blows away my Tascam US`1641 preamps. But the $250 ART dual channel pres, are not really any better than the interfaces ones. Just a bit different sounding.

A preamp on an interface, will typically get you fairly clean gain to your daw. More expensive preamps will give you more gain, and some will add some color to the sound. This is not something to worry about, until some experience is had, that will allow you to know what it is you want.

First and foremost, is to get the right product for recording. If on budget, then go with an entry level interface with one or two mic pre's. This is the place to start. Not with a Soundblaster, or one of the many gaming cards.
 
Guys,

There are a number of things that he has not detailed, such as (a) the brand/model of the mic, (b) is it a condenser/electret or dynamic, (c) if a condenser/electret how is he powering it, (d) what is he plugging the 3.5mm plug into, (e) if a computer does his computer have both a mic and line input, (f) if a computer and it only has one input socket, does he have the input switched to mic input rather than line input.

I'm also guessing that you have all overlooked a major point. I am betting that the cable he was given was XLR (BALANCED) to 3.5mm (STEREO SIGNAL) and that he is plugging the 3.5mm stereo plug into the mic/line input on his computer.

The line in on a computer is a strictly two channel unbalanced input where the left/right input plug is designed to accept seperate unbalanced signals NOT a balanced input as his "professional" mic will be puting out on the XLR connector.

As a result of this at any one time (say) the tip on the 3.5mm plug will be receiving a +ve signal from the mic, while the ring on the 3.5mm plug will be -ve. Now when recorded and played back, the +ve and -ve signals will virtually cancel out, with the result that he will have to wind his gain up very high to get any signal. Winding up the gain will result in hum/noise.

If the mic is a condenser/electret and is powered internally by a battery or it is a dynamic mic requiring no voltage to operate, then he should try using a different cable (probably you can't buy this) where the XLR f/male socket is wired balanced (2 hot, 3 cold, 1 earth) and at the 3.5mm plug join (ie solder them together) the tip and ring connectors together and connect to these joined connectors the end of the wire that was connected to pin 2 on the XLR and then solder to the 3.5mm sleeve (ie earth connector) both of the leads that were connected to pins 1 & 3 on the XLR end. This will give him a balanced to dual unbalanced input lead, so that at any one instant of time, both the left and right input connectors on the 3.5mm plug will be getting the identical signal and as such his recorder will be getting the correct signal. BUT ensure that the computer's input is switched to mic NOT line input. If he is not OK with a soldering iron, then anyone who is, could easily do the soldering for him. The XLR Female socket, the 3.5mm stereo plug and a few meters (I suggest no more than about 9ft -- 3mtrs when finishing up unbalanced as he will be doing) of balanced microphone cable, he can buy from any Radio Shack type shop

For his purposes at this time in his development, I would think that the pre-amp in his computer will be quite good enough, BUT if he decides to to the way of an external Pre-amp box, ensure that it has both balanced (XLR) and unbalanced (generally RCA) output connectors (the XLR output for future use), but I doubt if he wires his plug correctly and selects mic input and IF THE MIC DOES NOT REQUIRE PHANTOM VOLTS to operate, then he should get some success doing what I have suggested, but if he is however plugging the mic into a console, then he has something else wrong and this would require further investigation as to why he is getting the hum/noise.

Can you let us know how you get on and if the above fixes your problem. You can send me a PM if you require further assistance and I will see what I can do.

Bobbsy, I will have to take you to task SLIGHTLY re the quality of his $70 mic, sure it might be a questionable "professional" mic but then again!!!. In my studio I have possibly $60K+ worth of mics including AKG, Newman, Sennheiser, Rode, etc, but as part of my business we sell a range of Chinese made mics where the quality and price are both amazing, for example a radio mic set (transmitter and receiver) for under $AUS100 and independent tests by highly professional and respected FOH operators have determined that it sounds better than a $5K AKG system and a $1.5K Sennheiser system, their Shure SM58 vocal mic equivalent leaves the SM58 for dead in quality and frequency response and sells for a fraction of the price and I could go on for their entire range. I also use in the studio a couple of Russian made condenser mics, one of these being used recently to record the vocals for a CD that is now (I believe) sitting in the top 10 on the US Billboard list --- the mic costing about $US70. So, not all cheap mics are questionable in their professionability, although I agree that many are.

David
 
I don't believe that any of us want to argue this point. The advice given to the OP, is more directed to making purchases that will be best for the future. Yeah, I have a few 57's that I acquired for less than $70 each. Hell, my drum overhead mics are less than $160 for the pair, and they perform well. The point is though, that 6 USB mics will not make a grand setup, not even possible as far as I know, to use more than one at a time. Not a good investment recommendation, in my mind for anyone. Depending on the situation though, a basic internal soundcard might be good enough. If you want your recording to sound like shit. I don't even understand why someone would recommend to 'not' spend $40+ on an external interface. It just sounds redundant to even say it is cool.
 
@CSP: Back when this guy made this thread, he made like 10 other ones basically asking the same thing, in which he did answer all the points you made there. It's some Indian dynamic microphone (don't remember the name, but it has "Professional" in the title) and he's plugging it into the mic-in port on an onboard soundcard.
 
Well, TyphoidHippo and Jimmy69 have summed it up--we did indeed have more info than was available in this thread alone (and it's a good demo as to why multiple threads on the same topic are a bad idea!).

A few comments on CSP's other points.

First, I think my comments on the "professional" mic were aimed more at the use of that word itself. I certainly don't argue that cheaper mics aren't capable of very good quality--I just take issue with the over-use of the word "pro" by salesmen or in model names. In this case, the OP had been sold the expectation that his $70 purchase is of the same quality as a mic costing 20 or 30 times as much. His $70 mic may be capable of good results (and, more important, it may be capable of the sound he wants) but it's just plain a lie to christen it a "professional mic".

I'm not anti cheaper mics--as regulars on the forum know, although I have Neumann and AKG mics in my collection, my present "go to" mic is the sE2200a--more than $70 but a heck of a lot less than my more expensive stuff. Similarly, I do a lot of live sound in theatres and, some years back, stopped using expensive MKE2 capsules, choosing to use THESE or similar. A bit of EQ and they don't sound all that different to a £200 capsule--and the ability to treat them almost as consumables means that you're not struggling with mics that sound different after a couple of weeks because of sweat getting into them.

However, one of the drawbacks of cheap Chinese mics is the consistency. Some sound very nice indeed--but the next one off the line may sound very different. It's luck of draw. They also tend to not last as long--and breakdowns (especially in live work) can be embarrassing! Also, although the AUDIO side can be adequate, I've yet to find one that had acceptable RF performance, particularly when you're using multiple channels. The last time I checked the RF from a cheapy (a Nady as I recall) the filtering was so poor that the transmitter splattered across several adjacent frequencies--both illegal and also awkward when you're trying to cram in 22 channels! However, if you'd like to PM me, I'd love to hear the details of your Aus$100 radio mic! I'm always on the lookout for the holy grail of "cheap and good"!

Finally, on the wiring of the XLR to 1/8th inch adaptor, the incorrect wiring you mention should result in total cancellation, not just low levels. Although I can see circumstances where it could be as you describe, when I did this experiment for some teenagers I was teaching some years back, the cancellation was total! However, even with a properly made adaptor, I've yet to find a mic input on a modern computer that wasn't horrendously noisy. I went through a phase of having to feed voice tracks from Aus to the BBC in London via Skype. My first experiment was a decent mic into a PC with an adaptor cable--and it sounded as the OP described. In the end, I went with a solution involving a proper audio interface and the results (when I heard them back on air) were pretty good--still bandwidth limited but no extraneous noise etc.
 
Bobbsy,

Firstly, I was not attempting to be disrespectfull to you and apologies if it came across that way.

I had not read/seen the other threads by the originator, so I had no idea as to what he was using or how he was using it, but I would say that if he does what I described then he should get better results than he is/was getting. I also will not argue with the idea that a good mic-pre will give him far better results than he is getting, but it appeared from my brief readig of his post, that he did not want to spend much money and as such, I presumed that he was not after the highest professional results, so my suggestion I guessed would be sufficient for him at the present time. I know that the mic-pres that I use and only when I really have to (eg Chameleon, Avalon, Manley) cost an arm and a leg to buy and even something like the M-audio unit is quite expensive (well in Australia anyway).

Being a FOH engineer for almost 40years (as well as the work I do in my studio), I could not agree more with your comments about the use of mics such as the MKE2, DPA's, etc and like you I have been using my Chinese units for some time (my cost about $aus3.50 for a lapel/hair-line mic, or about $aus12.00 for an over the ear type face mic) as they sound equally as good as either of the two above mentioned and do not cost the $aus500 -$aus600 price that they do, so when one gets trodden on, etc, I do not mind having to throw out the mic, and I have been informed by the manufacturer that they will stand quite a bit of water if taken into the shower (I have not really given this a good test!!!).

I have not experienced any inconsistancy in the quality/sound of the mics I am refering to (they make everything from large diaphram condensers, to specific instrument mics, to radio mics, to dynamic hand held, etc) and I have used 16 of their radio mics without any problem, even when stacked directly on top of each other, which is generally considerd a no no. By the way, in the theatre where I do most of my FOH work, we use a combination of Sennheiser and Shure radio mics (24 units all up) fitted with the Chinese capsuals and I use my units when we have to go past this --- which is quite often!!!! The theatre by the way, uses a 56 chnl digital desk and we can sync two of these together if necessary.

I also agree with you about the cancellation of the sound when using the 3.5mm plug wired as I suspect he has it, but depending upon the quality of his "professional " mic, it is quite possible that the balancing within the mic itself is not all that great and as such there could easily be non complete cancellation of signal.

Finally, in relation to the standard internal soundcard on a computer, although I seldom undertake a computer based recording (I have a 96Chnl digital desk, feeding 56 tracks of digital recorder -- actually 2 x 24-track and 1 x 8-track all time-code to one frame synced) only using the computer to transfer files from a disc, USB stick, etc to the removable hard drives on my recorders if a client brings in files this way and for the very odd bit of editing of a track that I can not do with the desk's automation facility (I use Cubase for this), I would have thought that with a decent computer (and you need something reasonable to be able to record audio), and for what I consider his needs to be, that the internal sound card would be quite satisfactory -- he can not possibly be using a laptop or a discount store computer can he ???????

Now I'm going to bed, sending myself to sleep dreaming of the next piece of gear that I will be buying even though I probably don't need it --- the ultimate "gear slut"!!!!!!!

David
 
I would have thought that with a decent computer (and you need something reasonable to be able to record audio), and for what I consider his needs to be, that the internal sound card would be quite satisfactory

Any reasonably contemporary computer, with its internal soundcard, can perform highly satisfactory audio work. Most can record well enough to give reasonable, though usually not brilliant, results. Editing work can usually be performed very well.

Nevertheless, this forum abounds with posts from people who have not realised satisfactory results when using an on-board sound card.

The difficulty is that the internal cards are not specifically designed for duplex recording, i.e. simultaneously playing back what you've recorded while recording something new. Their biggest failing is the latency they introduce. They are typically designed for gaming and for activities such as Skype, where high quality and low latency are not the highest priority, and that lack of priority is reflected in the cost of components.
 
The "internal sound card" on about 90% of computers now is just the Realtek (or similar) system on the motherboard. This applies to both laptops and desktops. If you're really lucky, you might get a Soundblaster gamer's card but even those are the exception, not the rule these days. Neither of those options can accept a mic plugged directly in and give what I would consider acceptable results--last time I measured the mic input of a Soundblaster, the weighted S/N was about 55-60dB. The Realtek stuff is even worse, giving lots of computer rubbish as well as a poor S/N. You can improve things somewhat on the Soundblaster by using the line in (with a pre-amp obviously) but this doesn't work with Realtek--there isn't a line in to use!

CSP, no disrespect felt on your post! It's nice to have another FOH guy around! We're in agreement on the vast majority of points you made and seem to have found a similar route for mic selection in the theatre (except I'm 90% retired now!). Out of curiosity, what are those $100Aus radio mics of which you speak?
 
Bobbsy,

The microphones we are representing in Australia (I believe that we are only licenced for Australia) are the TIANTOP brand and they cover the entire range of microphones. One that they manufacture is a 3RU unit that comprises an 8 x chnl radio mic system (supplied as either a belt pack unit, hand held, or conference mic or each channel) over 2Ru and the 3rd Ru being a basic 10 x chnl mixer (1 x chnl for each of the radio mics and 2 x Aux chnl --- thus allowing you to chain another two units if you wish, giving a total of 24 radio mics). The cost of this unit (same radio mic system as their standard single and dual systems) is about $Aus800 to me and sells RRP for about $Aus1200, which is not bad for eight excellent quality radio channels and a mixer thrown in as well. We are having great success with this unit in schools where they want lots of channels but can"t afford to pay the thousands for the major brands, that do not sound any better.

David
 
MAudio Fast Track MKII USB Audio Interface

Will this be good and will my microphone 1/4" cable fit into it?
 
Yes finally that should give you much better results
You will need an xlr male to xlr female cable for a balanced signal (less noise)
Then get a good DAW (not audacity) eg; Reaper (40$ us i believe, Theres a free trial too. I am not affiliated)
get an upto date driver from M Audio website
Apply talent and your good to go
 
What if i directly put it into the guitar 1/4" jack?
Will it produce noise?
 
You'll be back within one day asking why your level is so low and whether or not you need a preamp.

Pluging into the DI socket does not put a microphone preamp in the path.
Plugging into the XLR socket does.

Also, if you ever invest in a condenser microphone, it just straight up won't work plugged directly into any Jack socket.
 
Some quick background information:

There are three general "levels" of audio carried by cables:

Line level: the highest ("loudest") level, normally used by gear like mixers, CD players, tape decks, etc. plugged into electricity or at least powered by batteries. Since this is the standard level inside electronics, it doesn't need any extra processing when you plug a line level source into your interface. Line level is up near a volt in electrical terms, maybe more depending on the peaks.

Microphone level: the lowest ("quietest") level, as you might guess, the output of microphones. It's very low because it's generated (or at least controlled with condenser mics) by the tiny vibrations in the air made by sound. Mic level is so low it's measured in thousandths of a volt and has to go through circuits (a microphone pre amp) to raise the level when you plug it into your interface.

Instrument level: in the middle of the two above, it's the sort of level coming from an electric guitar. Without wanting to bore you with technical stuff, an instrument level source doesn't need as much level increase as a mic--but it also wants a high impedance input to sound right.

Now, it's important to put the right type of source into the right input on your interface, both because of the relative levels and also because you need the right impedance relationship.

The XLR input will be the only one with the pre amp to raise the mic to a useful level. A quarter inch jack is likely used for either line level or instrument level or both. Using the wrong input will result in poor sound and probably more of the noise you're trying to get rid of.
 
What if i directly put it into the guitar 1/4" jack?
Will it produce noise?

The 1/4 jack is intended for guitar or line i cant remember on this interface Not mic level.
Invest in an xlr cable you wont be dissapoined in the change in qaulity.
Next move get a condensor mic (large diagphram) Make sure your interface has 48 volt phantom power
 
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