Axe vs. Monitors

[Richard Monroe]

Thanks heaps for all the advice here. Got a couple of questions for you if you don't mind...that Behringer V-amp you mention, I'm guessing the V stands for virtual, as in, you don't need a 'real' amp? If so it might just make an electric guitar/amp set up within my price range. I don't do any live playing, so just need to be able to hear myself and record really. How does this device interact with a USB interface? Do you plug it into the MIC in?


Thanks again.

The current equivalent is VAMP III:

Behringer V-Amp 3 | 8thstreet.com | Call 1-800-878-8882 | Most Orders Ship Free!

It has a built in USB interface out, so you can plug it straight into a computer. Yes, VAMP stands for virtual amplification. If you do a search on amplifier modeling, AKA amp sims (simulation), you'll find it was a hot topic of discussion for quite a while here. The various versions of the Line 6 POD are kind of the industry standard, and I do occasionally use an old POD Pro 2.0, but for my purposes, the VAMP has more useful models and is a hell of a lot cheaper. I also occasionally use a Bass VAMP Pro. You'll hear several basic positions, as follows:

Argument A, the purist:

"To get that real electric sound, you use real amps and microphones. You crank that bad boy up in a good room and play with levels and placement until you get that Godlike sound. No modeler can ever equal the sound of a cranked up tube amp."

Argument B, the moderate position:

"Cranked up tube amps are really cool, but I don't have the bucks to buy all those boutique tube amps, and plenty of successful commercial recordings have been made using modelers. I'd really prefer to crank up an amp. Send me one. In the meantime, I'm using sims because it doesn't wake up the baby and I can practice in my flat anytime without the neighbors complaining".

Argument C, the modeler position:

"This thing is cool. I can make almost any sound I want with it. It just takes time to get the settings right, like any piece of equipment. Besides, a cranked up amp is so loud, it can damage your hearing. Why would I want an amp anyway?"

I don't really subscribe to any of the above positions, but there is some truth to all of them. Here's my spin on it:

Modeling was a really cool idea when the first POD came out. The problem was, it was a technology in its infancy, and basically, it sucked. After a couple of years and redesign, it sucked less. Then, it only sucked a little, then it only sucked some of the time. Now, we're at the point where it doesn't suck as much, or as often, as you think. Personally, I use real amps *and* modelers, and I think they are both useful tools. The first thing is realizing what modelers do worst- simulating a cranked up tube amp with a mic in front of it. What they do best is producing clean tones, whether effected or not. Most electric guitarists use a good amount of distortion, especially lead guitarists. On the other hand, I used to play The Who a lot, especially Tommy, and most of Pete Townshend's tones were pretty clean. Another thing modelers do badly is simulating the sound of air hitting a microphone, generally called "moving air". This is the way electric guitars have been recorded for a very long time, and we have gotten used to that sound.

So- I thought if I took the line out from the modeler, and ran it into a clean power amp and a speaker, I could then put a mic in front of that speaker, send it to a mic preamp, and record it. You can use a small PA for this, or a powered monitor, or a power amplifier and a wedge monitor. This greatly increases the believability of the model, because it's really moving air. I often mix modeled sound with mic-recorded sound, as in the example of putting a mic on a solid body guitar, which I admit is pretty unusual.

All I'm saying is that just because a modeler can be recorded directly, don't think it has to be. Regardless of the Hooey about computer modeling, it's a guitar preamplifier with a line level output. You can record that output directly, or you can send it to a power amp and a speaker, and record it with mics. And, in the case of the VAMP III and the later POD's, it also has analog to digital conversion, so you can send it as digital data direct to your hard drive. No- do not use the mic input on your soundcard. The levels are not compatible, and computer soundcards are not designed for critical recording. In short, your plan should always be to bypass that soundcard. If you have a recording interface, you can just take the line out of the modeler and send it to the line in on the interface.

I use the VAMP a lot for solo gigs, and just jack it right into my PA. It's got banks of presets you can create for different sounds, different songs, and different guitars. If you are just starting, I think a good cheap modeler is really useful, and can be used for lots of stuff. Even after you get the amp from hell, you'll find it has uses as a headphone amp, putting effects on acoustic guitar, and as a creative tool. When I travel, I often carry a Pocket POD, a miniature modeler, just for a battery powered headphone amp for noodling. Bang for buck, the VAMP is a really useful tool and a really cool toy.

 

[grimtraveller]

Whether you agree with them or not, for sheer experience dripping from their words, Lt Bob and Sir Richard write posts that are well worth pondering on.

 

[mjbphotos]

You reckon the Epiphone Les Paul studio is too cheap £260 (new) to be any good? Do you worry about buying second hand, or is that a bit silly?

I'd shop around for a used one (see 'em all the time around here), the chances are it will have a decent set up (rather than a new one, which you then need to bring to someone (and pay) to have set up.

 

[Richard Monroe]

Quote from Fritsthegirl:

"You reckon the Epiphone Les Paul studio is too cheap £260 (new) to be any good? Do you worry about buying second hand, or is that a bit silly?"

Guitars are made out of wood, by humans (mostly). You can pick up a hundred cheap guitars, all the same make and model, made on the same assembly line. 10 of them will be unusable. 75 will be mediocre, 5 will be pretty bad, 5 will be pretty good, and of the remaining 5, you'll find that 2 or 3 suck more than you could ever imagine, and 2 or 3 will shock you by how good they are. Quality control is the biggest issue with cheap guitars, and before you find the handsome prince, you have to kiss a lot of frog. In practical terms, what does this mean? First, I don't give a damn if it's used or new. Second, I would *never* buy a cheap guitar I have not played. Three, if I am looking for a cheap guitar, I'm going to a place that has a lot of guitars, and the salesman is going to hate me before we're done. You're looking for the one that was made right by statistical accident. Personally, I've had better luck with Korean and Indonesian cheap guitars than Chinese, which means I'm more likely to look at Epiphone than Squier or Ibanez. Sometimes a damaged guitar is a great buy. I got my Tex-Mex Strat for $180 brand new because somebody dropped it and messed up the finish. It took me 3 days to find nail polish that matched. You want a cheap electric? Just play them until you find one that feels good, and the chords are in tune across all six strings. When you find one where your fingers hurt a little, not because the action sucks, but because you just don't want to put it down, you have arrived. Ignore appearance. Ignore the cool flamed maple top. A cheap guitar that's beautiful is usually evidence that they spent more money and effort making it pretty than they did making a good guitar. Ibanez Artcore hollowbodies are famous for this. They look great hanging on a wall, and they rock, as long as you don't have to play them.

 

[fritsthegirl]

Thanks so much yet again Richard, you are a fountain of musical knowledge and I seriously appreciate the time you put into replying to me. The shortcuts I've been given in knowledge is unbelievable, and invaluable. I'll go for anything cool and cheap! I'm easily pleased like that, and not good enough to be a snob on anything really - just happy to experiment with what I can afford that other people who know what they're doing can recommend. It sounds like a lot of fun, and it looks small, (space is of a premium) and I'm definitely going to consider this Vamp thing as the next addition, alongside my electric. It'll be awesome fun.

 

[fritsthegirl]

Quote from Fritsthegirl:

"You reckon the Epiphone Les Paul studio is too cheap £260 (new) to be any good? Do you worry about buying second hand, or is that a bit silly?"

Guitars are made out of wood, by humans (mostly). You can pick up a hundred cheap guitars, all the same make and model, made on the same assembly line. 10 of them will be unusable. 75 will be mediocre, 5 will be pretty bad, 5 will be pretty good, and of the remaining 5, you'll find that 2 or 3 suck more than you could ever imagine, and 2 or 3 will shock you by how good they are. Quality control is the biggest issue with cheap guitars, and before you find the handsome prince, you have to kiss a lot of frog. In practical terms, what does this mean? First, I don't give a damn if it's used or new. Second, I would *never* buy a cheap guitar I have not played. Three, if I am looking for a cheap guitar, I'm going to a place that has a lot of guitars, and the salesman is going to hate me before we're done.

Very sound advice, I wouldn't have thought there would be so much difference between guitars manufactured on a big scale, but obviously you're right, quality control is probably random, at best. Definitely a good move to go try them out first. I did this with my current guitar too. So much that the sales guy commented I'd been in 7 times already (it was actually only 4), and I must be serious about buying it. Do you know, I just don't like spending money that I work hard for on crap that isn't worth the time I've spent working for it. So I'm with you there, and will heed your knowledge.

 

[fritsthegirl]

Whether you agree with them or not, for sheer experience dripping from their words, Lt Bob and Sir Richard write posts that are well worth pondering on.

Word.

BTW was your quote..."I didn't get to be where I am today by being somewhere else!" inspired by Reggie Perrin?

 

[Lt. Bob]

Actually, there is no difference.

A speaker is a speaker. To monitor is what you use a speaker for. Most monitoring is done in a studio, so speakers used in a studio are called monitors.

Some companies make speakers specifically for this purpose, and they design them to be effective and accurate (which tends to make them expensive).

Other companies are more interested in luring in the gullible, and will brand their speakers as being 'monitors' even if there has been no special engineering involved.

The same applies to speakers used domestically for listening. There are plenty of well-engineered and effective speakers, and there are many more that are just ordinary.

So you don't necessarily need to look at 'monitors' as such. What you need to look at are good quality speakers that reproduce sound accurately.

^^^^^ this to the third power ^^^^&^^^

It's something I see over and over ..... the idea that a monitor is flat while stereo speakers are not.

Both are simply untrue.
Monitors aren't neccessarily flat .... especially at the prices most of us pay.

And good stereo speakers are often just as flat if not moreso than cheap monitors.
Audiophiles are, if anything, more obsessive about wanting their speakers flat than we recordists are.
They eschew the use of any EQ for instance so the speaker has to get it right ..... read any review on speakers in Stereophile for example ...... any spots on the freq curve that are recessed OR overly prominent get pointed out and well reviewed speakers are often not great for pleasure listening unless the sopurce material is well recorded because they are so revealing.
A speaker designed with an 'pleasing EQ curve' built in would be slammed. Look at Bose which does have such a curve built in ..... they're laughed at as dreck by audiophiles ...... not even considered worth looking at.

In budget priced monitors the term 'monitor' is only a marketing term.

I couldn't find anything on the Sony SS8e's you mentioned so i have no idea if they're a passable for monitor use or not though.

 

[fritsthegirl]

^^^^^ this to the third power ^^^^&^^^

It's something I see over and over ..... the idea that a monitor is flat while stereo speakers are not.

Both are simply untrue.
Monitors aren't neccessarily flat .... especially at the prices most of us pay.
And good stereo speakers are often just as flat if not moreso than cheap monitors.

In budget priced monitors the term 'monitor' is only a marketing term.

I couldn't find anything on the Sony SS8e's you mentioned so i have no idea if they're a passable for monitor use or not though.

Nah, I don't even remember who I inherited them from - they're so old. BUT they play what they play, and I have taken to listening to everything at work now for the acoustics as well as different speaker sounds, plus I have some little PC speakers here at home too. Between these 3 things I ought to hear glaring inadequacies, and well, if I can't hear them, it's probably me...not them.

 

[Richard Monroe]

Oh yeah, sometimes you can find a cool guitar for cheap just because it doesn't make the fashion statement that other people are looking for. I've got a really nice used Epiphone Selena signature electric-acoustic flamenco guitar that Guitar Center couldn't sell because it had a rose on it, and Selena's signature. It was identified as a "girlie" guitar. Guess what, a recording neither knows nor cares what the guitar looked like. Sure, I would buy a a pink Daisy Rock guitar with metalflake finish if it was cheap enough and had a good neck. I would have trouble resisting the urge to put on black leather and use it to play Anthrax, though. To sales staff, everything is perception. They'd sell me the guitar cheap because it's a "girlie" axe, and I'd bitch about the paint job to force down the price. They'd jack up the price on the same guitar for Frits, trying to claim it was "especially made for a woman". The first key to buying cheap guitars is internalizing the idea that form follows function. Does it work, and do you like the way it feels? That's what you need to know.

And when you finally succeed, you can feel a deep sense of satisfaction. Look- anybody can buy a good $10,000 guitar. You walk into a guitar store and wave $10,000. It might not be the right guitar for you, and you may hate it, but it will probably still be a pretty good guitar. It takes time and dedication to buy a good $100-$200 guitar. That's what an expert can do. And, no matter how good your guitars are, you still need a couple of cheap guitars, for backpacking, traveling, airplanes, the places where McPherson and Collings just don't go. You have to be pretty damned rich to be playing your Froggy Bottom in the rain by the campfire. So- when you find a really good cheap guitar, don't sell it. You'll never get what it's really worth, anyway. If anything, *give* it to someone poor who can really play. You'll get more satisfaction from that than the $50 somebody will give you for a treasure that only you recognize for what it is.

 

[Armistice]

. It takes time and dedication to buy a good $100-$200 guitar..

Ya know Richie, I'd rather spend my time recording and playing than trawling guitar and second hand shops and fleabay looking for unappreciated treasures. So I start with good, and work my way up from there. I don't want the hassle.

That said, I live in a country where there's a limited amount of second hand trade, huge distances in between major centres of activity, and a limited amount of brands anyway, and pawn shop specials are always overpriced crap.

And there are other things about guitars you can't tell until you subject them to serious work - will they stay in tune on stage, being a biggie. You can't work that out from a casual play in a guitar store...

The other guy in my two-acoustic-guitar band spend serious coin on a mahogany Martin and then fitted it with an aftermarket pickup system and seems to be forever tuning the fucking thing...cheap American rubbish as far as I'm concerned.... except it wasn't cheap.

I bought an Australian Maton Messiah for about $3600-ish 7 or 8 years ago, and I have never, ever, ever touched a tuning peg during either a gig or rehearsal. Ever. Ever.

Ever.

Or broken a string. And I play really hard. They are completely gorgeous hardworking beasts which sound brilliant as well. And they're all like that. Anyone who's got one will tell you the same thing. Consistency of build, because, hey we're in the 21st century now and it's possible.

Money. Well. Spent.

Ever.

 

[Richard Monroe]

Ya know Richie, I'd rather spend my time recording and playing than trawling guitar and second hand shops and fleabay looking for unappreciated treasures. So I start with good, and work my way up from there. I don't want the hassle.

That said, I live in a country where there's a limited amount of second hand trade, huge distances in between major centres of activity, and a limited amount of brands anyway, and pawn shop specials are always overpriced crap.

And there are other things about guitars you can't tell until you subject them to serious work - will they stay in tune on stage, being a biggie. You can't work that out from a casual play in a guitar store...

The other guy in my two-acoustic-guitar band spend serious coin on a mahogany Martin and then fitted it with an aftermarket pickup system and seems to be forever tuning the fucking thing...cheap American rubbish as far as I'm concerned.... except it wasn't cheap.

I bought an Australian Maton Messiah for about $3600-ish 7 or 8 years ago, and I have never, ever, ever touched a tuning peg during either a gig or rehearsal. Ever. Ever.

Ever.

Or broken a string. And I play really hard. They are completely gorgeous hardworking beasts which sound brilliant as well. And they're all like that. Anyone who's got one will tell you the same thing. Consistency of build, because, hey we're in the 21st century now and it's possible.

Money. Well. Spent.

Ever.

I also think expensive guitars can be wonderful things. As they say, everybody should own one. But we are responding to an honest and respectful noob who is trying to buy her first electric for cheap. I don't spend my time searching for dirt cheap guitars, either. It's weird though. I can be pretty hard on a guitar, too (I told you I used to play the Who a fair amount), and my Epiphone Les Paul holds its tune better than my '72 Les Paul Custom ever did (I sold it, BTW).

Acoustics are a bit of a different animal, I think. Then you get into tonewoods, bracing, soundhole placement, etc. It's *not* a plank. You can find playable cheap acoustics, but generally, even if they have a good neck and good intonation, they will still sound like a cheap guitar. My campfire guitar is a Mitchell with a solid top, $100 new minus a 20% off coupon. The case cost more than the axe. It has *perfect* intonation, but- it's always going to sound like a cheap guitar. It's great for playing old Delta Blues- After all, most of the old bluesmen didn't play a D'Angelico. I can't make my Taylor sound like those old cigar boxes, even with dead strings.

I'll tell you this, though, what is really scary is when you're playing a guitar you bought brand new, and somebody comes up and starts asking you about your vintage guitar! And yeah, the sound has improved quite a bit in 40 years. The price has gone up too.

 

[mjbphotos]

I I'll tell you this, though, what is really scary is when you're playing a guitar you bought brand new, and somebody comes up and starts asking you about your vintage guitar! And yeah, the sound has improved quite a bit in 40 years. The price has gone up too.

Funny, because my Epi acoustic is now that old, and it does sound superb, even with the surface cracks it now sports.

But that didn't stop me from picking up a used Taylor on ebay last night ..... (now how do I tell the wife?)

 

[Richard Monroe]

Funny, because my Epi acoustic is now that old, and it does sound superb, even with the surface cracks it now sports.

But that didn't stop me from picking up a used Taylor on ebay last night ..... (now how do I tell the wife?)

Oddly enough, it's my 40 y/o Japanese Epi with the cracks in the top! And yeah, 40 years makes a hell of a difference. I'm sorry I won't live long enough to find out what that Mitchell will sound like in 40 years. And- even if I do, I'll be deaf, anyway. Old age sucks, but as my wife says, it beats the alternative.

 

[mjbphotos]

Oh yeah, sometimes you can find a cool guitar for cheap just because it doesn't make the fashion statement that other people are looking for. I've got a really nice used Epiphone Selena signature electric-acoustic flamenco guitar that Guitar Center couldn't sell because it had a rose on it, and Selena's signature. It was identified as a "girlie" guitar. Guess what, a recording neither knows nor cares what the guitar looked like. Sure, I would buy a a pink Daisy Rock guitar with metalflake finish if it was cheap enough and had a good neck. I would have trouble resisting the urge to put on black leather and use it to play Anthrax, though. To sales staff, everything is perception. They'd sell me the guitar cheap because it's a "girlie" axe, and I'd bitch about the paint job to force down the price. They'd jack up the price on the same guitar for Frits, trying to claim it was "especially made for a woman". The first key to buying cheap guitars is internalizing the idea that form follows function. Does it work, and do you like the way it feels? That's what you need to know.

And when you finally succeed, you can feel a deep sense of satisfaction. Look- anybody can buy a good $10,000 guitar. You walk into a guitar store and wave $10,000. It might not be the right guitar for you, and you may hate it, but it will probably still be a pretty good guitar. It takes time and dedication to buy a good $100-$200 guitar. That's what an expert can do. And, no matter how good your guitars are, you still need a couple of cheap guitars, for backpacking, traveling, airplanes, the places where McPherson and Collings just don't go. You have to be pretty damned rich to be playing your Froggy Bottom in the rain by the campfire. So- when you find a really good cheap guitar, don't sell it. You'll never get what it's really worth, anyway. If anything, *give* it to someone poor who can really play. You'll get more satisfaction from that than the $50 somebody will give you for a treasure that only you recognize for what it is.

Here's another one for you, Richard!

 

[Telegram Sam]

Funny, because my Epi acoustic is now that old, and it does sound superb, even with the surface cracks it now sports.

But that didn't stop me from picking up a used Taylor on ebay last night ..... (now how do I tell the wife?)

I can get many things by my wife without her noticing; an acoustic guitar would not be one of them.

 

[Richard Monroe]

Here's another one for you, Richard!

View attachment 78563

Lovely! That's the kind of axe you look at and *pray* it doesn't have a straight neck! But- no worries! Stupid looking guitars like that are usually overpriced, because someone thinks they're "art". I usually tend toward proven body shapes that have withstood the test of time- Les Paul, SG, Telecaster, Stratocaster. There are shapes that don't feel good to me, you know, unbalanced? (like my brother). Examples are Ernie Ball, Warlock, Flying V, Parker Fly. Every one of them works for somebody, but not me. That's another lesson in selecting a cheap electric. Just because shoes are well made, doesn't mean they fit, or are comfortable, and cheap shoes that fit are always better than expensive ones that don't. That's just one more reason to play a bunch of guitars, to see how they feel. Personally, I prefer a neck with a short scale. They hold their tune better when playing hard rhythm, and I have very short arms. I can't comfortably play chords on the first 4 frets of an SG Supreme! And- those squared-off frets the lead guitarists love for the sustain sucks for full chords. Personally, I like short scale SG's, Les Paul Customs, Telecasters, and ES335/Casinos. That's just me. Strats don't do it for me. As I said above, form follows function, but the guitar's function has to follow the guitarist's form, also.

P.S. You may notice I referred above to a Tex-mex Strat I bought for cheap because of cosmetic damage. So- If I don't really love Strats, why do I own one? It's a studio piece. You know some nimrod will show up with a dried out, out of tune Strat with dead strings, bad intonation, and 2 or 3 fret buzzes. I haven't got the time to be the guy's guitar tech. I'll just hand him a strat and say- play this. It simplifies my life. Whether it works for me or not, the Strat is just one of the quintessential guitar types. And I actually do like that guitar. It's just that there isn't anything I would do with it that I can't do better on a Tele.

 

[fritsthegirl]

They'd jack up the price on the same guitar for Frits, trying to claim it was "especially made for a woman". The first key to buying cheap guitars is internalizing the idea that form follows function. Does it work, and do you like the way it feels? That's what you need to know.

I know this to be true because it's been tried on me many times when buying bikes. I have been forced to get on so many women's specific bikes. Never bought one because they just didn't respond/feel how I wanted or expected. I knew immediately when I got on the right one, and hey ho it's a 'boy! (bike).

I like a guitar I can get my arms and fingers around comfortably, that sits nice in my lap and sounds sweet to my ears. And I certainly don't go for showy stuff that does nothing for sound. With all the advice I've been given here (which will most certainly help me weed out the no goes) I reckon I will just take my time over this one and drive some poor sales guy to distraction in the process...and then see if I can get it cheaper on ebay.

 

[miroslav]

I'm a big Hagstrom fan...got way more Hags than anyone should have in one room.
For you, I would suggest a Hagstrom Ultra Swede. I had one for awhile, but ended up getting another standard Swede, as that's what I prefer size-wize.

Annyway...the Ultra Swede is a really easy guitar to play that might work well for a woman. It has a smaller body, thinner and WAY lighter then the other models. It feels like nothing around your neck, but plays like a dream. You can get used ones on eBay for $300-$500.

hagstrom ultra | eBay

 

[fritsthegirl]

I'm a big Hagstrom fan...got way more Hags than anyone should have in one room.
For you, I would suggest a Hagstrom Ultra Swede. I had one for awhile, but ended up getting another standard Swede, as that's what I prefer size-wize.

Annyway...the Ultra Swede is a really easy guitar to play that might work well for a woman. It has a smaller body, thinner and WAY lighter then the other models. It feels like nothing around your neck, but plays like a dream. You can get used ones on eBay for $300-$500.

hagstrom ultra | eBay

That looks real nice, I like the look of it a lot. I wonder where I could try one in London though? The only ones on ebay are imports from the states.