Audio Dropouts - Chasing my tail

  • Thread starter Thread starter Phyl
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Phyl

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The old timers must be tired of this topic, but I've tried everything I can think of to solve the problem and need a nudge in some new direction.

The system:

1.8Ghz Pentium IV (Dell 4500) running XP
1GB RAM
20GB HD
SONAR 2.0 XL
SB Live !
Aardvark Q10

I've recorded my first little ditty using three tracks:

Track 1: MIDI drums playing through the SB Live!
Track 2: Audio recording of Track #1
Track 3: Acoustic guitar

Total length of the song is about 45 seconds. The reason for two identical drum tracks is that I'm still experimenting with the drum pattern.

The problem:

When the computer starts up, the Windows theme plays through the SB Live! but it stutters.

When I start SONAR and play my project, it works fine for about 5 or 10 minutes, then I will suddenly get the dreaded Audio Dropout warning each time I hit the play button. The CPU and disk meters typically read between 0% and 10% when the song plays normally. If I close the warning message and try again, same result. The only cure is to restart the computer.

I've tried most of the suggestions offered on this and other bulletin boards:

1. Increasing latency slider (currently at 100 ms).
2. Disable programs at startup (all disabled)
3. Disable services within msinfo32.exe (disabled some,
others I don't understand enough about)
4. Decreased graphics acceleration (by about half)
5. Shut off auto notification ( I don't think XP has this option)
6. Checked "Always use MME drivers" within SONAR Audio
options.
6. Followed suggestions on SONAR and Aardvark websites.
7. I think I'm using the correct SONAR drivers...

I just can't believe this computer is running out of resources. I guess my suspicions lie with the SB Live! card but I don't know to prove it other than taking it out of the computer and living without MIDI sythesis (sounds like a project for tonight).

Thanks for your help.

Phil
 
...I think I'm using the correct SONAR drivers...

Man, Sonar doesn't use any drivers, your SBLive card does. Which drivers version you're using?
 
Sorry, I meant to say I think I'm using the correct Aardvark drivers, I downloaded the new ones from their web site.

As far as the SB Live!, I went to the Creative web site to get its drivers.

Phil
 
Although your system kicks ass overall, your weak in the hard drive area. You should get yourself a second hard drive, at a little over $1 a gig for a 7200 rpm drive, I'd add a 100 gigs to that system. Try defragging

You have enough mem to set your virtual memory (swap file) to it's minimum for now (both min and max size), right click on the my computer on the desktop, hit properties. under the advanced tab, performance options you'll find the settings. if you have problems, a 256k min and max should be fine. defrag again.

Also consider a Norton package with Speed Disc in it. that will optimize your swap file.... that's about the only Norton product worth installing. Speed disc is a defrag program.
 
Thanks Torpid...

I bought a second drive but was waiting to install it until I got this problem under control (IBM 40GB 7200rpm), I didn't understand that not having it installed might actually be the problem.

This brings up two more questions:

I understand that I should have the second drive installed as the secondary master, but the guy at the computer shop told me that my computer probably only has ATA33 support on the secondary master channel. He wanted to sell me another PCI card so that both my primary and secondary IDE channels supported ATA100 (or ATA133) interface. Is this really an issue?

What specifically do I need to change within SONAR so that it uses the second drive to store projects?
 
The guy at the computer store ---- post name will flame ----- is full of shit. that really pisses me off. I've never heard of a system having different ATA specs per channel. should be dual ATA 133 or 100.

If I'm wrong, making it your primary slave is fine. that's how mine is set up due to cable length, drive position probs.

when drives installed, make a folder for sonar, then sub-directories for all the file-types in the options to be directed to. (picture cache and audio data to) direct the file types to the appropriate folder.

you can also put a shortcut in your start menu to the sonar folder, it will fold out giving access to all the folders/files inside.
 
Phyl - I don't have a lot of time right now, but here's a couple of quickies:

While a second HDD will certainly help your system in the long run, it should have absolutely no bearing on your ability to play 3 tracks on 1.8 GHz system (sorry torpid). My system is a 733 Mhz Dell, and I was getting 10+ tracks WITH effects long before I ever installed a second HD. Something else is going on here. When I have a little more time, I'll see if I can suggest anything for you (although pulling the SB temporarily might be a good start, just to see what happens).

I agree with torpid, that the computer store guy sounds like a jerk - but I would highly recommend putting making the 2nd hdd your secondary master. The advantage of a second hdd is simultaneous reads/writes with your primary HD and I don't believe you can do that if you slave it. All the communication will have to go through the same controller in that configuration and negate the advantage of having two drives.

Catch you later.
 
btw, you prolly got highly overcharged for that 40 gig drive, it's hardly worth buying smaller than 80 gigs anymore.


another thing, you might want to make a small partition on that drive for other file types. you can store your favorites and other system files, desktop,my documents etc... so if (uh when) you need to reformat your system drive, you don't loose the important stuff.

Just drag the folders to that partition, Windows will make the system changes for you. you don't need a separate partition, but they defrag independently, so it's better.

dachay2tnr - I know, but a badly fragged drive can cause dropouts of even a single track. and I have no drive degradation using it as a slave, Yes, I also recommend making it the secondary master if possible.
 
Last edited:
The fact that the windows start-up sound stutters is a clue.
Don't know 'bout XP, but I've heard this on win98SE and it turned out to be part of the modems drivers.
If you go into device manager - see in sound & game controllers if there's a "wave device for voice modem" in there. If there is - Disable the bastard.
Tut-tut - you really don't want Windows system sound running anyway - disable them.
I strongly suggest you go to www.tascam.com and download the "optimising windows 2000/xp for audio" pdf - it's very good.
No, the hard drive is not the cause of this - the optimisations are more important - especially disabling ACPI management.
 
i agree with Jim Y

first goto control panel | network and disable your modem.

in the Sonar drivers section go to audio options | drivers and disable all the input/output drivers except for the one you want to use.

go to audio options | advanced and uncheck share drivers with other programs (just until you get things settled).

see if this fixes the problem.

now, even if it does fix the problem, re-enable the modem, and goto control panel | system | hardware | device manager | view | resource by type | IRQ

look to see which pieces of hardware share an interrupt with your sound card(s).

the Lucent WinModem on my laptop was causing the same issues, but the 10/100 ethernet works just fine.
 
phyl -

Couple of questions:

What bit and sample rates do you have Sonar set up for?
Is the 100 ms latency number that you quoted, the "effective latency" or the "buffer size?" Also, have you checked to make sure you have DMA enabled on your hard drive?

In the meantime, try increasing the "number of buffers in playback queue" setting? I think Sonar defaults this to 2. Try raising it to 3 or 4, or even higher. This will increase your latency, but as long as you're not using Input Monitoring, it shouldn't be a problem. Do it a step at a time and run the wave profiler after each change, and then test the change to see if it helped.

Try the above, along with some of the suggestions the other guys gave you and report back. You should be able to fix this, it's just a matter of finding the specific problem.
 
Dachay2tnr - I'm using 16 bit resolution and a 44.1KHz sampling rate. The latency I spoke of was read from the Sonar Options/Audio menu, I originally had moved the slider down to 10ms manually, when this problem began I moved it up to 100ms to see if it would help things. I'm coming to understand this the latency number of this menu is only relavant when using input monitoring (true?) and I don't do this. I have DMA enabled on both my drives and have increased the number of buffers under options/audio to 4.

Progress so far:

- Removed the SoundBlaster Live! card and it's drivers.

- Unselected Modem under Options/MIDI Devices.

- Went through optimal audio set up guide published by TASCAM.

- disabled modem wave device in windows device manager.

- checked to see if any devices were sharing IRQs, IRQ was shared between USB Bus and my video card, but I'm not using
any USB devices so I ignored this.

So far everything is working well, no more problems with drop outs. This whole exercise taught me a lot about my computer.

Only one question left - now that I have a second drive, do I want all my Sonar files (executable and project files) on it or should the executable remain on my primary hard drive? Would re-installing Sonar be a good move or can I just copy the appropriate directories to the new drive?

Thanks guys!

Phil


dachay2tnr
 
One thing for sure when you use SB Live! card with WinXP..., Microsoft's driver works better all the way than the one Creative's provide... IMHO...
 
Phil - that's good news that you were able to get it running without dropouts. That's real progress. The fact that you know your computer better is also a good thing, you guys are going to be partners in this new recording venture. :)

As for USB, since you are not using any USB devices you can disable USB from the control panel. Just go into Device Manager, find the USB controllers, select properties and click in the disable checkbox.

As for the other stuff, I would start re-enabling them one-at-a-time. See if you can figure out which one was actually causing the problem.

Lastly, you should only put your audio data (wave) files on the second hard drive. Windows, Sonar, and everything else goes on your primary drive. Although, you could put backup Sonar bundle files (.bun) on the secondary drive as well, for extra storage.

Oh, and as for latency, this will affect your computer's performance. The lower this is set, the worse overall performance you will get. However, most operations (e.g., mixing) can tolerate relatively high latency settings. Some, though, like input monitoring, requiire very low latency settings. Obviously the higher you can set this without it bothering you, the better performance you will get.
 
Good job!

Congratualations guys, this is what this place is all about.

A question with good information from a person who is serious about dealing with his problem. Solutions and scenarios put forward by people who will work the problem.

Kinda gives you some hope for humanity.
(Having just returned from Iran, I need some!)

Well done guys, queue the cheering crowds and tumultuous applause.


Alan.
 
drop outs

phyl-i had the same problem for a while...i had to disable the virus detector (in my case "mcafee").
also, when dealing with audio tracks, you may want to close the "console view" BEFORE you play it....
 
OK - the issue you are experiencing is related to the driver version you are using for the Q10 and how you have Sonar configured.

For the Aardvark products to get low-latency and 0 dropouts, you need to be using their specific A-WDM drivers. The latest drivers I am aware of were posted on 27th June, version 7.0 for Windows XP/2000. (You can check your driver version in the Device Manager or in the Aarcvark control panel software)

They can be downloaded from here -

http://www.aardvarkaudio.com/aasd-v1/download/install-page-xp-2k.html

To get Sonar to correctly use these drivers, you need to tell it to "ALWAYS USE MME INTERFACE" which is in the OPTIONS-AUDIO section. The Aardvark website also provides a complete walkthrough on how to set Sonar up to get super-low latency and no dropouts.

The link for this document is -

http://www.aardvarkaudio.com/aasd-v1/download/sonar_tutorial.html

I went nearly insane with this same issue using a Direct Pro 2496. After installing these drivers and setting up Sonar correctly, I can now run 40+ tracks of audio at 2.2msec latency with no dropouts, stutters or other issues. My CPU indicator shows about a 30% utilisation at that point in time.

I am using Windows 200, SP2
Aardvark Direct Pro 2496, (recording @ 24bit, 44.1KHz)
Pentium 4 - 1.8GHz
1 Gig of RAM

Let me know how you get on!
 
Querty - you have me puzzled.
Why install WDM drivers and then tell Sonar to "always use MME interface"? As I understand it, MME is only relevant to win9x using the old .vxd drivers. I thought win2000/XP could only use WDM drivers?
When I used Win98SE with a SBLive Card and an Audiophile2496, Sonar only showed the 2496 because this had WDM drivers - the Live did not. When I checked "Always use MME interface" both cards became available albeit with much higher latency.

PS. I just took the trouble to look up the Aardvark tutorial - I see your point now (Doh!). These aren't WDM drivers but Aardvarks own - somehow Sonar will turn to these as MME even though this shouldn't be available! Clever, very clever. And I'm impressed to see a company actually showing their customers what to do. M-Audio please note.
 
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