As Good As A Neumann But Cheaper

[DM60]

China was a leading technology country way before the Europeans. For example, they were making porcelain about 300 years before the Europeans could. Paper and the printing press, all of Chinese origination. So I think they can and do make quality products. That being said, IP is not something they respect.

 

[rob aylestone]

Keep in mind the basic fact that IP protection is something alien to their basic culture - mimicry is something they do because our opinion on it is simply different to theirs. One loudspeaker manufacturer of top class L-Acoustics has got the key players of one Chinese company sent to jail for copying their products.

My view on it is that if people are being sold products and they think they are genuine, so they're being conned - that is totally unacceptable. However - if somebody wants a mic for their own use, and (like the ones I tested recently) sticks on the little Neumann enamel badge, then that's sort of product envy, and probably makes them happy. Clearly, the manufacturer hasn't lost a sale - because somebody spending a little money on a fake, would not be buying the real thing. I realise this is unacceptable to many people, but often these people are those who can afford the genuione article. I'm clearly not normal - and have collected loads of mics over the years from well known manufacturers, but I also have some fakes, and while some (like the ones this week) are awful, some are useful and have a place in my collection. I've also got a Gibson branded Les Paul from China, and a Strat and a Rickenbacker 12 string. Why? I needed a 12 string for a project - and the price of a genuine Rickenbacker was silly when I knew it would be one off. I finished the project and had a few shows coming up with the band The Searchers - well known for 12 string rickenbackers - so I took along the fake one and asked John to play it. It sounded very similar bit he strummed it and said it felt weird - then he spotted the strings were the wrong way around - the normal one and the octave were swapped around - but it was so similar to a player who had played the real thing. It's been on a wall hanger since then - still with the strings swapped.

If somebody wants a counterfeit for their own use, yes, that's wrong ethically and morally, but I can live with it. Passing off to gullible folk, or people reselling them on ebay is a very different thing. I know loads of people will think this bad - but I have, as an example a Shure SM7B and a fake one sitting in a box on the shelf that I used in a YouTube video. It would be really easy to get them mixed up, because they sound virtually the same - close enough that I'd not be able to tell - so I keep it well away and boxed.

Some fakes cost more than the originals - if you don't pay attention.

 

[Smithers XKR]

Keep in mind the basic fact that IP protection is something alien to their basic culture - mimicry is something they do because our opinion on it is simply different to theirs. One loudspeaker manufacturer of top class L-Acoustics has got the key players of one Chinese company sent to jail for copying their products.

My view on it is that if people are being sold products and they think they are genuine, so they're being conned - that is totally unacceptable. However - if somebody wants a mic for their own use, and (like the ones I tested recently) sticks on the little Neumann enamel badge, then that's sort of product envy, and probably makes them happy. Clearly, the manufacturer hasn't lost a sale - because somebody spending a little money on a fake, would not be buying the real thing. I realise this is unacceptable to many people, but often these people are those who can afford the genuione article. I'm clearly not normal - and have collected loads of mics over the years from well known manufacturers, but I also have some fakes, and while some (like the ones this week) are awful, some are useful and have a place in my collection. I've also got a Gibson branded Les Paul from China, and a Strat and a Rickenbacker 12 string. Why? I needed a 12 string for a project - and the price of a genuine Rickenbacker was silly when I knew it would be one off. I finished the project and had a few shows coming up with the band The Searchers - well known for 12 string rickenbackers - so I took along the fake one and asked John to play it. It sounded very similar bit he strummed it and said it felt weird - then he spotted the strings were the wrong way around - the normal one and the octave were swapped around - but it was so similar to a player who had played the real thing. It's been on a wall hanger since then - still with the strings swapped.

If somebody wants a counterfeit for their own use, yes, that's wrong ethically and morally, but I can live with it. Passing off to gullible folk, or people reselling them on ebay is a very different thing. I know loads of people will think this bad - but I have, as an example a Shure SM7B and a fake one sitting in a box on the shelf that I used in a YouTube video. It would be really easy to get them mixed up, because they sound virtually the same - close enough that I'd not be able to tell - so I keep it well away and boxed.

Some fakes cost more than the originals - if you don't pay attention.

The Chinese are doing very good fake guitars these days. I bought a 12 string Ricky 335 George Harrison model for £300 all in with the tweed case. I had to wait 5 weeks for it but when it came it was actually better than the £3.5 grand original US version I played in Guitar Guitar. I had bought a Rickenbacker decal on line but the guitar came with the headstock stamped as .... Rickenbacker.. Made in USA.... I dont think the words copywrite infringement translate into Manderin.
The action was a bit high so I took it to my guitar guru and he milled the bridge down and got the intonation and action perfect for £50. The pickups were garbage but got 2 seymour ricky replicas for 75 each.

Total cost 500 for a guitar that is better than the £3.5k original

 

[Smithers XKR]

Keep in mind the basic fact that IP protection is something alien to their basic culture - mimicry is something they do because our opinion on it is simply different to theirs. One loudspeaker manufacturer of top class L-Acoustics has got the key players of one Chinese company sent to jail for copying their products.

My view on it is that if people are being sold products and they think they are genuine, so they're being conned - that is totally unacceptable. However - if somebody wants a mic for their own use, and (like the ones I tested recently) sticks on the little Neumann enamel badge, then that's sort of product envy, and probably makes them happy. Clearly, the manufacturer hasn't lost a sale - because somebody spending a little money on a fake, would not be buying the real thing. I realise this is unacceptable to many people, but often these people are those who can afford the genuione article. I'm clearly not normal - and have collected loads of mics over the years from well known manufacturers, but I also have some fakes, and while some (like the ones this week) are awful, some are useful and have a place in my collection. I've also got a Gibson branded Les Paul from China, and a Strat and a Rickenbacker 12 string. Why? I needed a 12 string for a project - and the price of a genuine Rickenbacker was silly when I knew it would be one off. I finished the project and had a few shows coming up with the band The Searchers - well known for 12 string rickenbackers - so I took along the fake one and asked John to play it. It sounded very similar bit he strummed it and said it felt weird - then he spotted the strings were the wrong way around - the normal one and the octave were swapped around - but it was so similar to a player who had played the real thing. It's been on a wall hanger since then - still with the strings swapped.

If somebody wants a counterfeit for their own use, yes, that's wrong ethically and morally, but I can live with it. Passing off to gullible folk, or people reselling them on ebay is a very different thing. I know loads of people will think this bad - but I have, as an example a Shure SM7B and a fake one sitting in a box on the shelf that I used in a YouTube video. It would be really easy to get them mixed up, because they sound virtually the same - close enough that I'd not be able to tell - so I keep it well away and boxed.

Some fakes cost more than the originals - if you don't pay attention.

In fairness Rob, a lot of stuff is being made in China these days as genuine stuff in the legit factories. Then the workers go and work in the fake shops to supplement their income in the evening. Golf clubs for example. It is the fault of the profiteering companies, not the fake makers

 

[Smithers XKR]

Keep in mind the basic fact that IP protection is something alien to their basic culture - mimicry is something they do because our opinion on it is simply different to theirs. One loudspeaker manufacturer of top class L-Acoustics has got the key players of one Chinese company sent to jail for copying their products.

My view on it is that if people are being sold products and they think they are genuine, so they're being conned - that is totally unacceptable. However - if somebody wants a mic for their own use, and (like the ones I tested recently) sticks on the little Neumann enamel badge, then that's sort of product envy, and probably makes them happy. Clearly, the manufacturer hasn't lost a sale - because somebody spending a little money on a fake, would not be buying the real thing. I realise this is unacceptable to many people, but often these people are those who can afford the genuione article. I'm clearly not normal - and have collected loads of mics over the years from well known manufacturers, but I also have some fakes, and while some (like the ones this week) are awful, some are useful and have a place in my collection. I've also got a Gibson branded Les Paul from China, and a Strat and a Rickenbacker 12 string. Why? I needed a 12 string for a project - and the price of a genuine Rickenbacker was silly when I knew it would be one off. I finished the project and had a few shows coming up with the band The Searchers - well known for 12 string rickenbackers - so I took along the fake one and asked John to play it. It sounded very similar bit he strummed it and said it felt weird - then he spotted the strings were the wrong way around - the normal one and the octave were swapped around - but it was so similar to a player who had played the real thing. It's been on a wall hanger since then - still with the strings swapped.

If somebody wants a counterfeit for their own use, yes, that's wrong ethically and morally, but I can live with it. Passing off to gullible folk, or people reselling them on ebay is a very different thing. I know loads of people will think this bad - but I have, as an example a Shure SM7B and a fake one sitting in a box on the shelf that I used in a YouTube video. It would be really easy to get them mixed up, because they sound virtually the same - close enough that I'd not be able to tell - so I keep it well away and boxed.

Some fakes cost more than the originals - if you don't pay attention.

That is a good point, the 335 I have could pass for an original, but I am not a scammer

 

[mowtontom2]

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

In fairness a lot of stuff is being made in China these days

Just got my first MIC instrument. It is ..ok. But no more. When I touch it, my fingers hurt..

This IS the Microphone you seek. Way better than a Newman, the Line 6 Sonic Port Wireless.

Its what Led Zeppelin used, on House of the holy...I saidz .. ' Yo Led, what mic was that you used there on track 2 '. "It was the line 6", replied Led.. Mr Zeppelin, knows how to record in castles made of sand...and even then uses only the best equipments.(possibly none of this is true)

 

[R D Smith]

I read the early part of the thread and the "Chinese trash" thing was very typical. The problem is that it's not very accurate. Just like anywhere, the Chinese can make excellent products and they can make complete junk. It would be like saying that all European cars are great. Anyone still drive around in a Yugo?

I worked with some chemical manufacturing companies in China, Japan and Korea. Our company had a facility is China that we got from buying a division of BASF. The plant was designed by BASF engineers. They made products that were every bit as good as the German division, in a few cases, better. Some other Chinese companies couldn't make an acceptable product no matter how hard they tried. Some were like a family run business in a run down tin shed. The lack of regulation was key. Most South Korean and Japanese companies did excellent work. Several Japanese companies built plants in China because a) they had the space and b) they worked cheaply. Products were built to spec. Foxconn has been Apple's biggest OEM and most the manufacturing is done on mainland China, although Foxconn is technically a Taiwan based company. I don't hear people saying that I-phones are junk.

One big issue with China made products is that there seems to be little regard for ethics. They have no problem selling fake products, stealing trademarks and copyrights for anything. I don't know if it is a cultural thing or not, but it has been apparent for a long time. I don't see it as much from Taiwan as from mainland China. But I don't think these are the big companies doing this. They will build whatever quality product you want as OEM or make their own brands. Folks like sE and 797 don't need to fake it. But it's easy to set up a company and make knock off products and lots of places to sell them now with places like Alibaba. I'm sure the Chinese government doesn't care. People are bringing in dollars and euros to the economy and it keeps people employed.

Who knows what the landscape will be 20 years from now (the first posts by Bunyip was that long ago). Everything might be made in Malaysia, or Vietnam or Indonesia.

I was in Shanghai in 2008 visiting our CN factory. One of the places I went to in my leisure time was called, wait for it..... The copymart! You could get your name brand fashion clothing, Rolex or other high dollar watch, electronics, or anything else you can imagine, all with authentic (um) labels, branding, etc.. The items I bought where high quality and still work to this day.

The company I worked for originally dealt mostly with Taiwan companies in the mid 1990's. The problem was eventually they got good and the cost went up. We then started changing to CN (and so did our competitors) because it was cheaper. Initially, I was rejecting the first 3 or 4 tooling samples before they were acceptable. After a period of time we opened a factory and things improved.

As I, and other's in this thread have said, IP is nothing in CN. If one company has it, sooner or later they all do. Probably because in CN, the only way you get a good increase in salary is to change companies. You bring something, they hire you. I don't hold that against them. The people I met that worked for my company, were just like me, only in a different circumstance. They have to survive, and the game is played differently there.

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

Its got 1xmono condenser
2x stereo condensers...field modeling, off a true stereo base
Oooo!
+ plus , it has all that other line6 stuff.
Line 6 , ....you get so much.

 

[spantini]

View attachment 125630
Its got 1xmono condenser
2x stereo condensers...field modeling, off a true stereo base
Oooo!
+ plus , it has all that other line6 stuff.
Line 6 , ....you get so much.

Modeling mics interest me very much, but way outside my current budget.
_____________________________

I don't mind that an inexpensive China version of a high-dollar original gets marketed with the original's badging. As Rob stated, the buyer of the replica probably won't be buying an original, so the company has not lost anything as far as that goes. The one thing about that I might see a problem with is someone shopping for a great microphone and, upon hearing the lesser qualities of the replica with original badging, decides to pass on the purchase of an original, genuine article. This may not amount to much in the world market, but it would be some few thousands of dollars in sales not realised by the original manufacturer.

 

[TAE]

I was in Shanghai in 2008 visiting our CN factory. One of the places I went to in my leisure time was called, wait for it..... The copymart! You could get your name brand fashion clothing, Rolex or other high dollar watch, electronics, or anything else you can imagine, all with authentic (um) labels, branding, etc.. The items I bought where high quality and still work to this day.

The company I worked for originally dealt mostly with Taiwan companies in the mid 1990's. The problem was eventually they got good and the cost went up. We then started changing to CN (and so did our competitors) because it was cheaper. Initially, I was rejecting the first 3 or 4 tooling samples before they were acceptable. After a period of time we opened a factory and things improved.

As I, and other's in this thread have said, IP is nothing in CN. If one company has it, sooner or later they all do. Probably because in CN, the only way you get a good increase in salary is to change companies. You bring something, they hire you. I don't hold that against them. The people I met that worked for my company, were just like me, only in a different circumstance. They have to survive, and the game is played differently there.

Likewise I have been going to China since 2007. I'm in the stone business ( countertops ) but I have been all over China and visited other types of factories that make a myriad of different things...Accidentally walked into a Bicycle trade show in Shanghai...Holy Moses. Golf club grip company, electronics manufacturing facility, a company that makes the plastic shells for musical instrument cases...total blast. Been to many knock off marts.. Purses wow...my buddy started buying them for his wife and encouraged me to do the same...Oh happy days...really nice high quality fakes...They loved em. I used to be into watches and I'd buy the high end fakes with real swiss movements.. You just have to educate yourself to know what to look for you're not going to get a watch with a real swiss movement for $20 but you can some REALLY nice watches for under $100 that are worth much more than that. A friend of mine wholesaled Chinese mics online for a while but the competition is tough and he had other things that were better to put his time into so he shut it down.

 

[ecc83]

I am not as jetsetty and urbane as some here so my comments have little weight but I just wonder what life is like for Chinese people who are at the lowest strata of their society? I mean the basic factory worker. The very low cost of Chinese goods must I think come at some human cost?

My eldest grandson did a degree in Spanish and Mandarin and went to Mexico for experience and had a blast! Cheap booze and lovely people. He also went to China and hated it. The rigid society and restrictions in what he could talk about were very depressing.

Dave.

 

[rob aylestone]

Back in the 80's I was a pretty active radio ham, and we used to send little postcards to people in far flung countries, to confirm we spoke on the radio - especially if the contact was special in some way. I had loads of contacts with Russian hams - who seemed a very nice bunch. All of the cards went to P.O. Box 88, Moscow - and you'd get one back via the same PO box in a month or two. The UK had a similar central point to deal with the thousands of cards going out and in. When the Berlin Wall fell and the Cold War ended, we discovered PO Box 88 was KGB Headquarters! That said, I have had some frank discussions with the Chinese folk I deal with for my business, and while many are formal, a few were quite open about things, although none criticised their government, but one did have a moan that she found it difficult to find charging points for her electric car - so business can't be too bad.

 

[ecc83]

Back in the 80's I was a pretty active radio ham, and we used to send little postcards to people in far flung countries, to confirm we spoke on the radio - especially if the contact was special in some way. I had loads of contacts with Russian hams - who seemed a very nice bunch. All of the cards went to P.O. Box 88, Moscow - and you'd get one back via the same PO box in a month or two. The UK had a similar central point to deal with the thousands of cards going out and in. When the Berlin Wall fell and the Cold War ended, we discovered PO Box 88 was KGB Headquarters! That said, I have had some frank discussions with the Chinese folk I deal with for my business, and while many are formal, a few were quite open about things, although none criticised their government, but one did have a moan that she found it difficult to find charging points for her electric car - so business can't be too bad.

Ha! If WE could not criticize our government we, (and the news proggs) would have very little to talk about!

What grandson found disturbing was that everyone was a 'straight' family and there were no disabled people to be seen.

Dave.

 

[Mark7]

Which Neumann?

Cheapest is the TLM 102. Most expensive is the M49V

 

[TAE]

I am not as jetsetty and urbane as some here so my comments have little weight but I just wonder what life is like for Chinese people who are at the lowest strata of their society? I mean the basic factory worker. The very low cost of Chinese goods must I think come at some human cost?

My eldest grandson did a degree in Spanish and Mandarin and went to Mexico for experience and had a blast! Cheap booze and lovely people. He also went to China and hated it. The rigid society and restrictions in what he could talk about were very depressing.

Dave.

I have dug pretty deep into this. It is an emerging 2nd world into first world country. Been going there since 2007 and it is remarkable how much things have changed as a culture. Consumerism / capitalism has exploded. In 2007 the average low level worker would save 50% of their wages none had a cell phone.
Now the low level workers hardly save anything ( just like us Mericans) they all have phones and aspire for "cool things" (Consumerism keeping up with the Jones's)

On the factory workers thing. This is my observation of how it generally works. It goes from small factories to huge factories. "migrant workers" mostly unskilled under educated folks from rural farm areas 100's to 1000's of miles from their village or "hometown" for most of the year live on site at the factory. Just wild ass guess is on average the main work force is 80% migrant and 20% local workers. For those living at the factory their meals, their rent , their work clothes are provided. They work 8 to 12 hour shifts 5 to 6 days a week with Sundays pretty much being the day of rest for everyone. They do have A LOT of national holidays, way more than the U.S. Very often the parents go work at these factories while the grandparents raise the kids. The masses accept this as normal. When they work they way up into management and they start becoming aware of how it works in other countries ( by speaking to outside of China customers like myself) they generally get bummed that they are caught in this long distance from their families trap and quit. Seen it first hand. They aspire to have more...not settle for the norm....capitalism.

The big paradigm shit happens each Chinese New Year...that is when the worker is empowered. The average time off during CNY is 3 weeks or more. This is when the workers are able to go home to their village and stay with family. How sad is that. This is also when they negotiate with other factories for a better gig. If you work for Factory A...you reach out to factory B and with all the intellectual property you've amassed you negotiate a better salary or position.

This is why nothing is secret in China. If factory A figures out or innovates something new this year, within a few years it is common knowledge all over China and everybody is using that trick or making that product.

Sometimes manufacturers circumvent the annual exodus by building their factories in these rural areas and hiring mostly local workers who go home to their families each day or at least on weekends, It reduces that CNY loss of employees greatly.

The factories either build their own little hotels where workers have their own little space, or they bus them each morning and night to an off worksite living space.

I've eaten the food the factory workers eat many times and it is usually pretty darn good but then I like Chinese food

 

[TAE]

On the rigid restrictions and rules.

Yep some of it is pretty whacky. No Google, No Facebook, No drugs...(you can be sentenced to death) I know of a billionaire who just "disappeared" Government swooped him up and he was...gone

MY American buddy was using a VPN reading some political sites one night in his hotel room and all of a sudden this official government warning page comes up saying he has accessed an illegal site and he must stop immediately...SHIT! He shook in his boots the whole night expecting them to crash in and arrest him.... Don't be a dumbass when you're there obey their rules. YOU DO NOT WANT TO GO TO JAIL in China.

 

[TAE]

Ha! If WE could not criticize our government we, (and the news proggs) would have very little to talk about!

What grandson found disturbing was that everyone was a 'straight' family and there were no disabled people to be seen.

Dave.

On the disabled people I have definitely seen many. Though China has come down hard on them Gangs still do exist. I watched the city of Donguan transform from a city similar to Las Vegas with regards to prostitution and gambling get transformed in a matter of a year to a completely safe and clean city.

In Xiamen I saw beggars missing body parts or horribly disfigured. I was told by my Chinese counterpart that some of these beggars are controlled by these gangs and that they are mutilated and disfigured by them so people will feel sorry for them and give them money... that is some screwed up shit

 

[spantini]

As far as workers living many miles from job sites, I see similarities here in Florida. Many of the commercial vehicles in our county (not interstate trucking) are based 60-100 miles away... 2-3 counties over. Plumbers, HVAC, Roofing, Landscapers, etc. Almost none are local outfits.

Then, watching morning and evening rush hour traffic, it's virtually bumper-bumper moving in all directions. Apparently, not many commuters live anywhere near their job locations. Oh sure, there are the locals who work nearby, many just a few miles from home.. but not many when compared to the population as a whole.

Of course, this is all based on qualitative observation. No real measurements.

I believe many cultures are gradually becoming homogenized.

 

[Smithers XKR]

I have dug pretty deep into this. It is an emerging 2nd world into first world country. Been going there since 2007 and it is remarkable how much things have changed as a culture. Consumerism / capitalism has exploded. In 2007 the average low level worker would save 50% of their wages none had a cell phone.
Now the low level workers hardly save anything ( just like us Mericans) they all have phones and aspire for "cool things" (Consumerism keeping up with the Jones's)

On the factory workers thing. This is my observation of how it generally works. It goes from small factories to huge factories. "migrant workers" mostly unskilled under educated folks from rural farm areas 100's to 1000's of miles from their village or "hometown" for most of the year live on site at the factory. Just wild ass guess is on average the main work force is 80% migrant and 20% local workers. For those living at the factory their meals, their rent , their work clothes are provided. They work 8 to 12 hour shifts 5 to 6 days a week with Sundays pretty much being the day of rest for everyone. They do have A LOT of national holidays, way more than the U.S. Very often the parents go work at these factories while the grandparents raise the kids. The masses accept this as normal. When they work they way up into management and they start becoming aware of how it works in other countries ( by speaking to outside of China customers like myself) they generally get bummed that they are caught in this long distance from their families trap and quit. Seen it first hand. They aspire to have more...not settle for the norm....capitalism.

The big paradigm shit happens each Chinese New Year...that is when the worker is empowered. The average time off during CNY is 3 weeks or more. This is when the workers are able to go home to their village and stay with family. How sad is that. This is also when they negotiate with other factories for a better gig. If you work for Factory A...you reach out to factory B and with all the intellectual property you've amassed you negotiate a better salary or position.

This is why nothing is secret in China. If factory A figures out or innovates something new this year, within a few years it is common knowledge all over China and everybody is using that trick or making that product.

Sometimes manufacturers circumvent the annual exodus by building their factories in these rural areas and hiring mostly local workers who go home to their families each day or at least on weekends, It reduces that CNY loss of employees greatly.

The factories either build their own little hotels where workers have their own little space, or they bus them each morning and night to an off worksite living space.

I've eaten the food the factory workers eat many times and it is usually pretty darn good but then I like Chinese food

The reason why the Chinese fakes are so good is that all of the people work for western companies in their factories. E.g guitars, golf clubs etc. Then the Chinese workers go and work in the fake making factories in the evening to supplement their income.
Dont blame the Chinese, blame the western companies from profiteering out of cheap labour. Sorry political rant over