Are you as good a songwriter as the pros ?

[fat_fleet]

For me, what really makes a recorded song is threefold ~ the arrangement, the performance and the mix.
The writing of the song is, if not the easy part, certainly the not too hard part.
Someone who likes DIY decorating may not do it for a living, but given time, they can come up with just as good a job as the pro. The pro does it quicker and more regularly. But the result is often 'the same', relatively speaking.
So it is, in my opinion, with songwriting.

I respect that view, and as we both know it is not the first time it has been expressed around here.
And I am here, not to argue, but just to provide the contrasting viewpoint.

You are correct that it's not tough to write a song. Here I'll write one right now:

G
Hangin ouuuut
Am
on the Recording Forum!
G
Makin a post
Am
That noone will read!
(bridge)
C
It's gonna be loooooooong!

There. That's a song. Is it a good one? Depends on how you define a good song. Will anyone want to hear it? Doubt it. Hold it up next to, I dunno, any song. I'll just pick Sympathy For The Devil cuz everyone knows it. Is my song better? Nope. That doesn't mean there won't be a few who will prefer it...or maybe it does but that's beside the point. My point is it's easy to identify the "better" song. I'm pretty sure Mick and Keith spent a little more time and effort thinking their song out. But hold Sympathy for the Devil next to, say for instance Metallica's One and things get a little dicier. You will find folks who argue vehemently for either one for reasons sometimes not even based on the music, but rather on the style, the genre, the bands' political beliefs etc. Replace One with Stairway and things get crazy. The closer two songs are to each other in terms of style and writing level, the more wackadoodle people's opinions are about which one is "better". One can say the graph shoots off to positive infinity as it nears the asymptote.
BUT Van Gogh's Starry Night is better than my stick figure drawing. Only an idiot would argue otherwise. And likewise a good song is better than a bad song, or even a mediocre one. And the difference is 100% inspiration. Arrangement, performance, and mix are important...but that can all be learned. Spyro Gyra and Kenny G have that stuff in spades and it's still torture (for me at least) to listen to them. Inspiration and the capacity for ideas is the only part that can't be imitated by a trained monkey. You may looooove Leonard Cohen, but while you're cooped up in your bedroom trying to approximate his magic, he's off somewhere writing a totally new song that it will take you another 20 years to even get, never mind like. Even if you've got better gear. It's the difference between leaders and imitators, not to get all Ayn Randy on yo ass.
It's like the scene in Bedazzled where Dudley Moore wishes to be a famous pop star and he appears on stage singing some pop tune to screaming teenage girls that sounds great until Peter Cook as the Devil goes up and sings this slow smoky song full of nuance and subtlety. Suddenly Dudley Moore's song seems weak and vapid and the teenage girls are all Peter Cook fans while poor Dudley can't even get a ride home.

I could go on and on, but my point is that objective standards do exist in art. Sure it's "easy to write a song". Will it be a "good" one? Depends on what you put into it.

 

[grimtraveller]

I know it's accurate story telling. The point is, if you or I had written it, would it have ever been even recorded ?

Well, some of my songs are pretty quirky or comedic or both, so, yes !
As an aside, Simon Leng in his book "While my guitar gently weeps" {if you like reading, I recommend it. It's a great book} makes an interesting point regarding this song. He observes that the difference in quality between the A side and "Old brown shoe" on the B side is very noticeable and that in any other band "Old brown shoe" would have been the A side but the Beatles internal politics kept the Lennon/McCartney axis on top. He reckons that this was the kind of thing that ultimately drove Harrison to the point where he didn't want to play in the band any longer. Interestingly, Lennon later said he fought hard to make sure "Old brown shoe" got to be on a single at all.

Fame plays a part in a song's success.

Yeah, there's alot of truth in that. Or maybe not so much fame as popularity and being established. Once an artist had a fan base, they were often freer to try out things they might not have tried on their first offerings. And it was more likely to sell because of prior familiarity. How true this is in these download days is anyone's guess.

G
Hangin ouuuut
Am
on the Recording Forum!
G
Makin a post
Am
That noone will read!
(bridge)
C
It's gonna be loooooooong!

There. That's a song. Is it a good one? Depends on how you define a good song. Will anyone want to hear it ?

There are a number of short, quirky songs that various artists have released down the years. It's impossible at this stage to say whether your song would be any good. However, once you've padded it out, arranged and then recorded it, those that listen are in a position to say whether it's a good song. I don't think in terms of "good" and "bad" songs. I think in terms of songs I like, songs I dislike and songs that I'm indifferent to.

Hold it up next to, I dunno, any song. I'll just pick Sympathy For The Devil cuz everyone knows it. Is my song better? Nope. That doesn't mean there won't be a few who will prefer it...or maybe it does but that's beside the point. My point is it's easy to identify the "better" song. I'm pretty sure Mick and Keith spent a little more time and effort thinking their song out.

In the film "One plus one" {retitled "Sympathy for the devil"} Jean Luc Goddard intersperses boring revolutionary drivel rhetoric with the Rolling Stones recording "Sympathy for the devil" during the 'Beggars' banquet' sessions in the summer of 1968. It is absolutely fascinating in bearing witness to the evolution of a song. The song goes through about 5 revisions as they work their way towards the final form. Jagger later said "he happened to catch us on two very good nights".
The song is a good song {}, an interesting song. I like it in it's original folkie format but none of the other variations until the final one. That's what I mean about arrangement, performance and mix being the key ingredients for me. In "Sympathy" each attempt is the same song, yet, it is the arrangement, performance and mix that brings the song to where it is something else.

BUT Van Gogh's Starry Night is better than my stick figure drawing. Only an idiot would argue otherwise. And likewise a good song is better than a bad song, or even a mediocre one.

This is so dependent on the individual appreciating the art. I happen to dig Van Gogh's picture because for me, there's something psychedelic about it but someone into primitive art will perhaps value your stick figure and think it's better. Van Gogh's art wasn't much appreciated in his day. He sold one or two paintings. People and perceptions change over the years.

Arrangement, performance, and mix are important...but that can all be learned. Spyro Gyra and Kenny G have that stuff in spades and it's still torture (for me at least) to listen to them. Inspiration and the capacity for ideas is the only part that can't be imitated by a trained monkey.

Arrangement, performance and mix can be learned and it's how those ingredients are used that is going to determine how 'songs' turn out. I agree about Kenny G and Spyrogyra by the way. I think they're both awful. I think. But that's because they bore me and the stuff of theirs I've heard does nothing for me.

I could go on and on, but my point is that objective standards do exist in art.

It's a fascinating debate. I utterly disagree on this because the question must always be asked, who sets the criteria that is to be applied ? What if the songs that don't pass the criteria are nonetheless loved ? Why can't I set the criteria ? Or you ? Why should you bow to what I think or I you ?

Sure it's "easy to write a song". Will it be a "good" one? Depends on what you put into it.

Sometimes, it's easy to write a song, sometimes it's like pulling teeth. I can only say that different kinds of songs appeal to different people.
Many really well known 'classics' of the last 50 years were written in a matter of minutes. Tossed off as throwaways.

 

[Armistice]

When I unleash my new song in a week or so you'll all be able to tell me...

I'm not sick of it yet, which after a couple of hundred listens during the recording process, I'm taking as a good sign..

Just have to get the other guy's backing vocals tonight and it's into final mix...

 

[ric3xrt]

Yes I am as good, as anyone out there today, I've had a few offers on some of my songs, and have actually sold a few in the past 20someodd years, but only you can decide
reverbnation.com/clientno7

 

[miroslav]

I'm curious....which are the songs you sold?

I listened to a few on your reverbnation page....do any of your songs have lyrics/vocals?
Also, on the first song "Ellie"....how did you get that lead guitar sound...that is a guitar, right?
You have some interesting guitar tones.

 

[fat_fleet]

Yes I am as good, as anyone out there today, I've had a few offers on some of my songs, and have actually sold a few in the past 20someodd years, but only you can decide
reverbnation.com/clientno7

How much does one of your songs go for? Would you cut me a deal for the whole lot?

 

[fat_fleet]

Tellyawhat, I'll give you $50 for all your songs and your complete music persona including name, credit cards, and any personal info I deem pertinent.

 

[fat_fleet]

I respect that view, and as we both know it is not the first time it has been expressed around here.
And I am here, not to argue, but just to provide the contrasting viewpoint.

You are correct that it's not tough to write a song. Here I'll write one right now:

G
Hangin ouuuut
Am
on the Recording Forum!
G
Makin a post
Am
That noone will read!
(bridge)
C
It's gonna be loooooooong!

There. That's a song. Is it a good one? Depends on how you define a good song. Will anyone want to hear it? Doubt it. Hold it up next to, I dunno, any song. I'll just pick Sympathy For The Devil cuz everyone knows it. Is my song better? Nope. That doesn't mean there won't be a few who will prefer it...or maybe it does but that's beside the point. My point is it's easy to identify the "better" song. I'm pretty sure Mick and Keith spent a little more time and effort thinking their song out. But hold Sympathy for the Devil next to, say for instance Metallica's One and things get a little dicier. You will find folks who argue vehemently for either one for reasons sometimes not even based on the music, but rather on the style, the genre, the bands' political beliefs etc. Replace One with Stairway and things get crazy. The closer two songs are to each other in terms of style and writing level, the more wackadoodle people's opinions are about which one is "better". One can say the graph shoots off to positive infinity as it nears the asymptote.
BUT Van Gogh's Starry Night is better than my stick figure drawing. Only an idiot would argue otherwise. And likewise a good song is better than a bad song, or even a mediocre one. And the difference is 100% inspiration. Arrangement, performance, and mix are important...but that can all be learned. Spyro Gyra and Kenny G have that stuff in spades and it's still torture (for me at least) to listen to them. Inspiration and the capacity for ideas is the only part that can't be imitated by a trained monkey. You may looooove Leonard Cohen, but while you're cooped up in your bedroom trying to approximate his magic, he's off somewhere writing a totally new song that it will take you another 20 years to even get, never mind like. Even if you've got better gear. It's the difference between leaders and imitators, not to get all Ayn Randy on yo ass.
It's like the scene in Bedazzled where Dudley Moore wishes to be a famous pop star and he appears on stage singing some pop tune to screaming teenage girls that sounds great until Peter Cook as the Devil goes up and sings this slow smoky song full of nuance and subtlety. Suddenly Dudley Moore's song seems weak and vapid and the teenage girls are all Peter Cook fans while poor Dudley can't even get a ride home.

I could go on and on, but my point is that objective standards do exist in art. Sure it's "easy to write a song". Will it be a "good" one? Depends on what you put into it.

Oh god, shut up stupid.

 

[Greg_L]

I can't believe you guys actually checked his link. I guess troll/spam does work on some people.

 

[fat_fleet]

Well aren't we rushing to conclusions.

 

[miroslav]

Well he made a big claim about how good he was....almost too good to pass up!

You really should check out a couple of the tunes....at least go listen to "Ellie", you don't have to hear any more than that. You'll want to completely reevaluate your idea of "good tone".

 

[Greg_L]

Haha, no thanks. I don't indulge these guys.

 

[Lt. Bob]

simply had to go check out Ellie ............... ummmmmmmmm ............. that's about the worst mosquito fuzz I ever heard.
But if that's the sound he wanted ....................

 

[zendao]

Professionals? That word don't mean S##T to me when it comes to songwritting, specially cause the masses are the ones who decide who is.

 

[ric3xrt]

I'm curious....which are the songs you sold?

I listened to a few on your reverbnation page....do any of your songs have lyrics/vocals?
Also, on the first song "Ellie"....how did you get that lead guitar sound...that is a guitar, right?
You have some interesting guitar tones.

I have Few with Lyrics, "Return To Sanity, is about the raven from Edgar Allen Poe".
Ellie,
left channel Guitar, is a 58 Les Paul with PRS pick ups ran into a Rocktron Gainiac, out to a Digitech RDS4000 , then into a Furman PQ4 lineout to a H&K Redbox MKII, into the board
Right Guitar, is a G&L with a Mid 90s Jackson Neck, and who knows what kind of Pick up through the same setup as right Channel except the DI, the Di used on the right channel was a Radial pro.
The main Backing Guitar is the Paul through a PreSonus Studio Tube Channel Strip in to a Digitech RDS 1000 and the furman PQ4
Drums are SR16, bass stock 71 fender Jazz in to a Trace Elliot GP11,into the board
Everything was recorded Direct to Soundcraft Studio Spirit board then mixed down to a Alesis masterlink.
Return to Sanity is the only song I've Recorded with Live Guitars,here at my house, The Paul in the Left Channel thru the Gainiac then into a 72 Marshall superlead 100 Plexi.
Right Guitar is a Cheep dean semi hollow 12 string into the same setup
The Song "Thief" was sold 2 years ago, but the band hasn't decided if they are going to use it, if they use it I have to pull it from the page.

 

[ric3xrt]

simply had to go check out Ellie ............... ummmmmmmmm ............. that's about the worst mosquito fuzz I ever heard.
But if that's the sound he wanted ....................

I'm not a fan of the tone, but once I get the studio done I can work on it better.........and for the record my dog doesn't like the mosquito fuzz either.

 

[XploZiveToyz]

As a former "pro" songwriter who was a paid staff writer for three different publishing companies in Nashville several years ago, I can say with authority that there are several people here who have written songs every bit as good as any of the so-called "pro" songwriters. What does "pro" mean? It means you get paid. One day I was a smartass, beer guzzling idiot that played in bars and clubs, and was considered an "amateur" songwriter, and the next I was a "pro" songwriter. What changed? Certainly not me! I was still the same beer guzzling, smartass idiot that I always was, but now I was doing it on someone else's dime. I haven't heard everybody's songs here, but I have heard Greg's and his stuff is definitely on the same level as the "pro's". Will he ever get rich and famous? Very doubtful, but I doubt seriously if Greg gives a flying fuck one way or the other! LOL! The man does what he loves and enjoys it while he is doing it, so I'd say he's got life pretty much by the balls whether he is ever considered a "pro" or not!

 

[VomitHatSteve]

You know, I'm told that prompting people to "decide for themselves" is a really effective marketing technique, but it just annoys the crap out of me. It just seems condescending. "I could tell you what to think, but nah. You can decide for yourself!"
</rant tangent>

Yep. That Ellie song has some interesting tone.