Are you as good a songwriter as the pros ?

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There will alwys be formula songs written for good-lookin bands or bands aimed at current fads and trends, it's not unusual to have better material than them. I think I have written some fantastic material but it amounts to a small percentage of my total output. Some of the pros have unbelievable ability to write lyrics that are clever and connect with incredible insight to a large nymber of people, while putting those lyrics to a tune and the perfect accompaniment and arrangement and that really impresses me. I think a lot of us could have approached this if we had hit on something and some point and been afforded the resources the pros have to work with othertalented peopleand develop our ideas. Raw songs? Yeh, there are a lot of people with germs of great songs out there that are just as good as what the pros start out with.
 
It's the Arrangements

I have no trouble creating original music, but agonise over lyrics and song structure. The result has been some stuff people really like and others less popular. The big key for me is arrangement. An arrangement can make an OK song sound really great or a great song lose its sparkle. I have so much to learn in this field.
 
It seems like all the songs I write that I don't like, are the most well-recieved by others and vice-versa. Besides, I don't really care too much about what other people think of my music. I don't write songs to please other people, I write them because it's something I love to do and it keeps me sane.
I wouldn't compare my songs to the pros, because what makes a song "good" is what it means to you. I've written songs that I think are better than commercial ones, and same the other way around.
 
Objective

Its all a matter of perspective. Funny?-I'll write a song and be real impressed with myself-and everyone hates it-or, is disinterested at best. Then, I'll slop some stupid ditty together and get a surprisingly positive reaction (go figure). Bob Costas asked Paul Simon what his favorite lyrical line was and Simon responded-"Oooooohhhhhhh-baby, baby......"(Smoky Robinson)-Go figure.
 
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I like 'Bubble Baths'-pretty cool-reminds me (a little) of Primus-and, maybe a bit of Zappa.-Hey can you tell me how to link my music on to a thread?-Keep it up-thanx.
 
I think, and its a personal opinion...

everyones first attempt at playing an instrument, writing music/lyrics/both, what have you... is gawd-awful.

some progress quicker than others, due to hard work, natural abilities, talent... and the RIGHT mentoring.

that mentoring can be anything, from studying on your own, somone helpign you or working wth you, whatEVER...

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THAT said?

the "pros", when you hear a track played commercially?

you are hearing the final polished product. Even the PROS song you just heard on the top 40 or wherever... had a beginning... say, a acoustic with lyrics demo version...

THAT early version of their "hit song"???

if you are telented and gifted, AND work hard, yeah, i think the amateurs can aspire to THAT. with luck and hard work and ability.

BUT, that finished polished product you heard on the radio? THATS the result of a TEAM. An experienced producer, mixer, mastering, hired guns maybe... a LOT MORE than what the "pro actually made" is what your hearing.

example: a local rock station a few months ago? They played an "early version" of pink floyds "money". It was just acoustic guitar and the "bare" singing...

sort of thing any talented "amateur" with hard work and ability could have made...

i *think* a highly talented and hardworking "amateur" and a "pro" are one and the same... the PRO just has a TEAM behind him.
 
I love songwriting and the idea of songwriting. It's great fun and an interesting process because songs come in so many ways.
But I've felt for many years now that songwriting in itself is kind of overrated. While I think it would be daft to say that 'anyone can do it', there are many types that do it. Some are Professional {that is, they do it for a living}, some are not. Some are just hobbyists that do it for fun. And some used to do it, both professionally or hobbyistically but don't or can't anymore. I don't think it is a given that a pro writes good or memorable songs or that a non pro doesn't.
One of the more interesting developments in music over the last 15 or so years has been the almost standard presence on CDs of demos, outtakes and alternate/alternative takes, the ubiquitous bonus track. It's the presence of these, perhaps more than anything else that leads me to the conclusion that songwriting is overrated. Especially when dealing with albums that are 25~50 years old. Because there, you hear the bare bones of or different versions of songs you've come to know and love and they are often a pale shadow of the song you know and love. Well, at least, I often find them to be so. And then listening to songs written by friends that will never be recorded because they're not interested in recording or some of the quality material written by people on this site, to me, they easilly stand up to alot of stuff that has been professionally done.
For me, what really makes a recorded song is threefold ~ the arrangement, the performance and the mix.
The writing of the song is, if not the easy part, certainly the not too hard part.
Someone who likes DIY decorating may not do it for a living, but given time, they can come up with just as good a job as the pro. The pro does it quicker and more regularly. But the result is often 'the same', relatively speaking.
So it is, in my opinion, with songwriting.
 
When it really comes down to it, it doesnt matter if your write " as good " as the " pros " if you like what you write thats all the matters, as long as it has meaning to it, its a good song, and no im not speaking about songs that have been written by current artists on the charts on the hip hop / R and B side of what they call " music "
 
ManInMotion711 said:
im not speaking about songs that have been written by current artists on the charts on the hip hop / R and B side of what they call " music "
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Wouldn't that be the "pros" by definition? i.e. the people who make a living writing these? :D
 
VomitHatSteve said:
Wouldn't that be the "pros" by definition? i.e. the people who make a living writing these? :D
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Unfortunetly yes it does,but i believe the question can ultimately be drawn down to a relative view of what you consider music.
 
So the lady in the audience hollers out at me, "Hey, is that a real song or did you write it yourself?"

As everybody has been saying, it's all subjective, and depends on the performer, the arrangement, production, etc. Promotion has a lot to do with it as well.

Lyrics can be absolutely amazing--such as "Sha-na-na-na Sha-na-na-na-na Sha-Boom..."--a memorable song right there where the music was fun. The Beach Boys and Jan and Dean music was usually fun, though lyrically they were usually ho-hum. Still, there were some pretty sophisticated verses discussing car engines that one would never expect to be a hit. But they were sing-able.

Johnny Be Good is an incredible song, but Chuck Berry's only #1 hit was My Ding-a-ling. It doesn't have to be fancy, musically complex or have well crafted lyrics.

The Beatles put out some songs that, IMHO, were crap, (The Ballad of John and Yoko for example, 50 acorns tied in a sack...?) but they were the BEATLES! So damn famous they could do anything and it would be a hit. Some of their songs were strings of disparate lyric lines--yeah, we've all got those unfinished lines--that Paul couldn't figure out what to do with. So they stuck them together, threw some music at it--A Hit! (Heard and interview where Paul described the process.) Same thing with the Travelling Willburys--George Harrison, Bob Dylan, Roy Orbison and Tom Petty took lines from advertisements they cut out of the newpaper--threw some music at it (and their fame, of course) and made a hit song.

Today's Hiphop, Techno, etc. is musically boring! But, I remember Dick Clark had a rating system..."It's got a good beat and you can dance to it."

I've written lots of stuff that people thought was as good as the pros. I've never put it out there, and until I do, I ain't as good as the pros.

What makes a pro's song "good", in a measurable sense, is that they put it out there, they get it recorded, it gets promoted, and becomes a hit. And they stay pros by doing it again, and again.

Just my opinion, but if you want to be considered as good as the pros, you gotta put your stuff out there...
 
Folkie said:
So the lady in the audience hollers out at me, "Hey, is that a real song or did you write it yourself?"
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My six year old asks me the very same thing. :(

All the time. And she's not trying to be funny. :facepalm:
 
Good question, I think I am a good songwriting but not so much a good producer of my own music.
 
Folkie said:
The Ballad of John and Yoko for example, 50 acorns tied in a sack...?
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The irony is that "The ballad of John and Yoko" was entirely a true story. Everything mentioned in the song happened. The 50 acorns tied in a sack were acorns that they sent to 50 major world leaders with a request to plant them for peace, for from little acorns do mighty oaks grow.
Sometimes truth is far weirder than fiction.
Groovy little number, too, sans Harrison and Starr.
Folkie said:
Johnny Be Good is an incredible song, but Chuck Berry's only #1 hit was My Ding-a-ling.
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Wow, that takes me back. I was about 9 and recovering from an operation when that came out and got to no.1 in England. I still remember 2 of the verses {the opener and the one about climbing the garden wall}. It was 40 years before I really thought about what he was actually singing about ! I have a mate whose Mum used to say that "Chuck Berry's lyrics are dirty" and even as a young man in my 20s, I didn't have a clue what she meant ! :facepalm:
 
grimtraveller said:
The irony is that "The ballad of John and Yoko" was entirely a true story. Everything mentioned in the song happened. The 50 acorns tied in a sack were acorns that they sent to 50 major world leaders with a request to plant them for peace, for from little acorns do mighty oaks grow.
Sometimes truth is far weirder than fiction.
Groovy little number, too, sans Harrison and Starr...:facepalm:
Click to expand...

I know it's accurate story telling. The point is, if you or I had written it, would it have ever been even recorded? Much less still getting air play occasionally, lo these many years later?

(I used to think that was "50 egg rolls tied in a sack..."--equally as stupid a line, IMHO, but they were the Beatles!)

Compare "The Ballad of John and Yoko" to a story song from someone like Harry Chapin (Taxi--well, pretty much all his songs), or the subtle lyrical and musical crafting of Fogelberg's "Same Old Lang Syne". Or the the Beatles' own Eleanor Rigby, based on Paul's neighborhood. (Gotta love that the Beatles used a string quartet for the background music there. No drums, no guitars--brilliant!)

And yet John and Yoko was #1 in the UK, #8 in the US. Folgelberg only made it to #9 US. Taxi to #16. (But I'd take any of those.)
Fame plays a part in a song's success.
 
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