Are we loseing too much of ourself in the studio to achieve perfection?

miroslav said:
See....YOU just revealed a PM you sent to me!!!! :eek:

Yeah, I think I wished Merry XMas back to you.


Look man....be honest, are we really fighting/arguing around her with some deep anger....or is this more about basic forum kick-the-can amusements? :)

By now, you and I know exactly what we each like/dislike audio-wise, and we've both repeated our views on a variety of topics over the last few years every time someone starts a new thread about the same old thing....just like most of the veteran members have,


Yeah, you've pissed me off a bunch of times, and I know I've done the same to you.... but I got no hate for you, it's JUST A FRIGGIN FORUM!!!! :D
I don't know why some folks get waaaaay serious-tense and upset about the things that happen here and the discussions that take place.

I mean...no blood, no foul....right?
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I can reveal my own PMs sent to you, you can't! That's the unwritten rule. If I say it's okay, you can repost it wherever.

No, there's no actual hatred in our disagreements. I never got the impression that you actually hated me, and while I have made fun of you mercilessly over the years, it's mostly for jokes and my own amusement because you're such an easy target. There's no actual hatred on my end. Just many many facepalms. :laughings:
 
miroslav said:
All I said was..."look at modern Metal"...and then you say "Really, you want to start another one?".....well, that was you implying something negative and looking to start something.

Then when I reply and ask you what are you getting mad about....you give me all ^^^^^^ that.
I also don't get why you want to do this online rather than offline...talk about “not cool”.
You harped on me a few times in the past on the open forums...then you sent me PMs saying "sorry dude, I was having a bad day"....how cool was that?

You wanna talk about this some more....let's get Chater involved, because I don't want you to accuse me that I am "arguing" here with you. I'm just trying to understand where the heck you're coming from...and maybe that's best done offline and with her involvement since she oversees HR and what goes on here.
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Ok Miro,

I am one to bow down when I have gone to far or said something wrong. I do not defend myself if I am wrong. I will apologize. This is however not the case here. I am just giving my opinion as to how you engage in conversation on the forum lately. IMO, it is becoming annoying. <THAT is my opinion. Mod or not, I am allowed to give one.

Your using a previous context from another situation between 'us' is exactly typical of how you find a way to use something from outside to argue your points. * And why I posted what I did. You seem to find any rope to pull yourself to the top, no matter what the discussion is about. Again, MY OPINION.

Ok, you let the cat out of the bag here. Get Chater involved? Now this I don't feel is worthy of public discussion, but since you brought it up...

Don't go there dood...I can discuss PM's just as you have if you like, between the current mods about you when you were a mod. I however have a but more tact than you seem to.


Dood, Miro, just chill dood. You must have something that is eating at you at this point in your life, because you are really not being productive right now. Just stop man. PLEASE! :)

By the way, there is nothing personal about this. I like you when you are not making everything about 'YOU'.

Cheers!
 
jimmys69 said:
Ok Miro................................
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OK Jimmy....none of this that follows is "arguing", but obviously we need to air it out a bit...


I don’t think anyone would open the mod/PMs can of worms...:D....and it was never about that anyway. All this stuff about "discussing PMs" kinda got silly here.
I never posted any of your PMs or anything like that...you know that. You and I talked offline at times in the past about stuff, and those things will always stay private.

I was just making the point that when you publicly chastised me a few times in the past, and then privately took it back....well, it sent some mixed signals to me, and it would have been nice if you took it back publicly instead....that's all.

You can have any opinion about me that you want...however, as a mod, you giving me a hard attitude on the forums about why I like to debate on-topic stuff so much...and then doing so with a personal snipe about me being dishonest, and just looking to be contradictory for the sake of being contradictory...that's un-cool, and also not true. When you do that as a mod, it makes it appear like I'm breaking some forum rules when I engage in debates....which was/is never the case.

You always say that I'm "arguing" in threads. OK....maybe it's just a perception thing, but again, when you say that as a mod, it seems like rules are being broken, and they are not.
There's all kinds of people posting, and we're ALL going on and on in an extended discussion/debate....with no real “arguing”. What does it really matter how much I or anyone posts in a thread as long as there is nothing nasty/personal/vulgar going on?
If it goes on for 50 pages…so be it. Why does that bother you if it’s not bothering the participants?

Grim really gets it. In that "Analog" thread, even though he and I disagreed about a few things several times, he said he was loving the debate and all the side discussions that were generated from it.
I come to the forums for one thing...the debate/discussion, and the occasional silliness that pops up sometimes in threads. It's fun to debate, and we're just talking.

AFA this personal stuff you tossed out...about me acting like I know everything about everything. Sure, I'm opinionated...but so is most everyone else here. I just maybe enjoy the debate aspect more than some, but certainly I’m not alone in that regard. The stuff that I do know...I do know. There are many threads I never post a word in, because they’re outside of my scope.

I've been involved with audio for over 30 years. I read a lot...I spend a lot of time checking shit out on the Internet...and basically, I don't have much of a life outside of the studio and my audio interests. I spend a LOT of time either recording or just futzing around the studio. If I'm not doing any recording or writing...I'm fixing some audio gear or reconfiguring something or building something.
So while I certainly am NOT a subject matter expert on everything, I am pretty knowledgeable in some areas, and I generally have my nose in just about anything I can find that’s audio related, almost daily...and shit just sticks in my head and when discussions pop-up...I think of it, and I post about it. If that offends you or bothers you....I don't know what to say to that.

Also, nothing is "eating away at me"….where are you coming up with that???
I'm usually in a good mood on the forums...and until this thing came up out of nowhere ‘cuz I made a small comment about “Metal”, I had no gripes about anything or anyone...so no, nothing is "eating away at me", though I have to say, sometimes I do wonder if anything is troubling you...because your mood can fluctuate on the forums from day to day.
AFA as not being "productive"...I don't see how you are in a position to know that..???
I've actually been working on music almost regularly the last few months...plus adding a bunch of new plugs for my DAW (like Trigger), so I’ve been spending time getting familiar with the plugs. Not to mention, been doing some work on my tape deck, and currently waiting to install my "new" remote that's been getting overhauled for the last few months, and I'm excited about getting that hooked up soon.

Anyway…I’m not looking to just keep replying on these topics that you raised here…but feel free to respond back to my post if you want to.....but right now, I’m going back to the on-topic audio discussions, so I'll check in at some point... but everything’s cool here….hope it is with you. :)
 
Your question is a psychological one. At the heart of it is the core question, "Can I avoid doing whatever it takes to improve?" (I'm not implying that you are asking that question.) Here's why your question is so important. We are all most comfortable where we are and we remain satisfied playing the way we play. That's the pull our brains exert on us. But to improve we first have to face the fact that we are not good enough. That is a hard pill to swallow. At every jam you can hear musicians who will never be in a band and are playing no better than they did when they graduated high school. But we must keep improving. And here is how recording makes that happen. The greatest producer in the world is a recording device, because it will not stroke you, it will not tell you what you want to hear and it will never lie to you. By listening to what you are really doing, you work on it to get it "perfect". Of course perfection is impossible. (There is no perfect musician or perfect take.) But by striving and struggling, we improve even in the short time we are in the studio but only with the help of the honest feedback a recording offers. What you really love though is the immediacy and honesty of an imperfect performance. Well, imagine how much better your live performances will be because of recordings. So in the end, we improve through striving for perfection, and life of course is not perfect, and that is its perfection. My advice? Don't worry. and don't let your brain try to talk you out of striving. The brain is comfortable and doesn't like to change, but push past it. Your art will not be lost and will always be at the core of what you do. Good luck.
Rod Norman
Producer and engineer

Illsidgus said:
I guess what I am asking is, have we replaced the artistry of performance with laboratory like perfection in the recording and mixing of music. Do we spend too much time trying to create a perfection that does not exist in nature by removing all human artifacts from a recording? And is this a good or bad thing to do?

Some of the recording that have had the biggest impact on me, the ones I remember with the most fondness are the ones minor imperfections in them.

**Just a note, this is not a discussion of digital vs analog!!!
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Rod Norman said:
Your question is a psychological one. At the heart of it is the core question, "Can I avoid doing whatever it takes to improve?" (I'm not implying that you are asking that question.) Here's why your question is so important.r
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Actually I was implying the opposite of that. My feeling on the subject is to strive for the best performance I can get instead of tweaking and improving on the performance in the mixing and mastering part of the process. I think that younger musician, not all of them, can be a bit lazy in the studio. In many ways the days of perfecting a performance before committing it to tape, or these days into the computer, are disappearing. I am not putting down digital recording, I would like to try it myself, but the digital studio has made it to easy to be lazy.

Now I am getting off point. My original question had nothing to do with not putting forth our best effort but rather are we over processing our performances in the studio and in the process removing the heart of the performance.
 
Rod Norman said:
The greatest producer in the world is a recording device, because it will not stroke you, it will not tell you what you want to hear and it will never lie to you. By listening to what you are really doing, you work on it to get it "perfect".
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The recording device doesn't lie, but your perceptions can. I have encountered many people who will record something that is not good, but are convinced it is the next million-seller. Those perceptions are reinforced by family and friends who declare it to be marvellous.
 
gecko zzed said:
I have encountered many people who will record something that is not good, but are convinced it is the next million-seller. Those perceptions are reinforced by family and friends who declare it to be marvelous.
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Without revealing clients names....do you get a lot of those kind in the project/commercial recording scene like yours?

I often wondered where the talent percentage split was generally speaking in te majority of smaller project/commercial situations. Do you get like seven lousy wannabe artists for every three really good recording projects, or do most sound at least decent with only the occasional clunker?

One of my own reservations in opening the doors, so to speak, to outside recording was not wanting to deal with twenty awful garage bands for every 2-3 decent acts. Do you have days when you wish you were somewhere else in the middle of any sessions because the "artists" suck that bad? :D
Or...do you just pick projects that you know will be enjoyable to do?
 
The real question is who the fuck are any of you to judge? If you're accepting money to record/mix a band, just STFU and do it.
 
It wasn't a question of passing judgment like it was at some contest...but I'm sure most engineers can tell when they have decent talent or not. I've heard of some engineers who would only do fairly seasoned artists, and of course there are studios that will be happy to simply press REC and let you do whatever you want.
You CAN have that choice before you accept the gig...but yeah, I agree with you, once you do, then STFU and record them regardless. :)

I was just curious what Gecko saw during a typical period of time in his recording business.
I'm sure he would give all his clients the same quality engineering....but a 15 year-old screaming out of tune can't possibly be as much fun as a really good, seasoned singer.....regardless of the money at the end of the sessions. :D
 
That depends on the bias and mindset of the recording guy. To a 60 yr old man, a screaming 15 yr old probably isn't very interesting.
 
I'm sure the degree of perceived "lousy" or "good" will depend on the person, like you say...though I think we all can sense some quality level about any kind of musical performance, if we don't allow personal tastes to get totally in the way...and if you're going to do recording as a biz, you probably have to tuck that bias away....or otherwise be very selective in who and what type of music you record.

Some of it might be dictated by the area you live/record in...like if there's a strong music style that dominates, chances are that's what most of the acts would be.

I'm not really sure what the majority of music styles and types of people Gecko deals with....but I was still curious about his perception of them as a whole.
 
I will interject here a bit, since the question has been asked.

I mostly record for musicians that I have known in my 30+ years as a musician. Most of them are very competent, otherwise they wouldn't have been around that long.

I have my studio (if you can call it that) as a place where musicians feel comfortable recording in a environment that feels like jamming in a rehearsal studio. Yeah, there is over $30,000 worth of gear in here, but it looks-and is my basement jam space. I do not advertise as I have a lifetime of relationships that have given me a reputation of being able to give good production advice and ability to capture the performances presented.

There are occasions where someone I know recommends someone to come into my studio and they are not quite my 'cup of tea' per-say, but it is always a learning experience for both sides. Hell, I record Hip Hop stuff for friends of my lost son, and death metal for a friend of a good friend of mine.

The bottom line is not the 'bottom line' as far as money goes. ANYONE who steps foot in my studio is not judged before they come in. It is about what can be done to enhance what they already have. That is the job-and should be the desire of a producer or engineer- if that is what you are in it for. I personally just enjoy lending my experience to those who have other or similar experience, and enjoying the whole process. Experimenting with another person/bands goals/sound and finding that sound is almost spiritual to me. Whatever that means...

That being said, I have participated in many projects that the performer may not be up to par yet (kids), but I would never call anyone a 'lousy wannabe artist'. That is just judgmental and arrogant to say the least. There is much talent that can be given direction when it comes to the young and inexperienced ones.

I will say that there have been a couple times when I have heard rehearsal tapes/live recordings of band, and suggested that they spend more time rehearsing before coming into any studio before recording. And, there is also the fact that most bands improve quite a bit after a recording session.

I suppose the bottom line for myself is that I do not take in 'anyone'. I do not advertize to make money. I do not do this because I need money. I take on projects that I enjoy and feel that I can benefit from in some way, whether it be to help others, or learn something from the experience. Not for monetary gain.

I will not ever be associated with a studio that just generates income, no matter what the talent level. But that does not mean I would close my doors to helping to evolve or help out a lesser talent is they show the desire to learn.
 
Right....youth doesn't always clearly reveal the potential someone has, so yeah, there has to be a period of nurturing and development before a realistic decision can be made about someone's artistic future.
Since Gecko mentioned about people recording "something that is not good, but are convinced it is the next million-seller" that's what kinda gave it the "wannabe" twist....but it's certainly one thing to call someone a "wannabe" to their face, and another to simply have your view about them and their potential. I don't think any engineer would do the former unless he was a really cold prick. There's always a smoother way to bring someone down a bit without totally crushing them.

I've worked with a few folks in the past who were not quite there yet, but certainly had the motivation and inspiration to improve, and that makes it worthwhile and fun. I mean, that's where my own drive comes from....a desire to improve on the last thing I did.
Though I guess if someone just---can't----sing....but wants to be the next Aguilera, there has to be a "come to Jesus" moment at some point, though I don't necessarily think it's the engineer's responsibility to be the one to have it with her, unless there is a good connection and the honesty is asked for by the singer.
Yeah, it's a delicate thing, and most musicians have egos that are easily crushed. Just one "you suck" from the right person can kill someone's interest forever.

Of course, if someone really, truly sucks...and they ask you.....do you say, "no, you're not that bad" just to get another session out of them, or do you give them a more straight answer...???
At some point, if they just ain't got it, I think you'll kinda run out of the "hey, let's give it one more try" enthusiasm, no matter how patient an engineer you might be. :D

There's probably a point in every studio's life span where at first, as an engineer, you just go with the flow, and do what you can to help out....and then as your client list gets bigger and steadier, you might have the luxury of being a bit more selective.
I was just curious in a given period of time...like over the course of a year or for every 30 sessions....where do they generally break out at the more "modest" studio biz level....good/bad-wise?
 
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