Are we loseing too much of ourself in the studio to achieve perfection?

[Greg_L]

All I said was..."look at modern Metal"...and then you say "Really, you want to start another one?".....well, that was you implying something negative and looking to start something.

Then when I reply and ask you what are you getting mad about....you give me all ^^^^^^ that.
I also don't get why you want to do this online rather than offline...talk about “not cool”.
You harped on me a few times in the past on the open forums...then you sent me PMs saying "sorry dude, I was having a bad day"....how cool was that?

You wanna talk about this some more....let's get Chater involved, because I don't want you to accuse me that I am "arguing" here with you. I'm just trying to understand where the heck you're coming from...and maybe that's best done offline and with her involvement since she oversees HR and what goes on here.

Whoa, now THAT is bad form. Discussing the content of PMs publicly? A new low.

 

[Illsidgus]

Of course, this whole thread comes from the perspective that you are actually recording live performances to begin. I would submit that many (if not most) home recordists are actually involved in the more electronic genres which don't in fact rely so heavily on live performance. That is, you've got a whole lot of techno (or whatever the fuck they're calling it nowadays) and hip-hip and whatnot where most of the music is in fact sequenced to begin with. That is, a whole lot of what comes out of home recording situations starts out on the grid, perfectly in time and in tune to begin with, and in fact could not exist outside of the studio. Ask those folks if they're "losing themselves" in the studio.

But even short of the fully sequenced electronic music there has always been a large segment of the recording community who's entire intent is to use the studio itself as an instrument - to deliberately use the tools available in the studio to create things that could not exist in the "real world". From Les Paul to the Beatles and Hendrix to Eno, NIN, and on and on. Ask them if they "lost themselves".

But, part of what spurred me to post this was the idea that if you look into the more studio focused and electronic genres I think that many of these folks have found that they get the "best", most satisfying results when they deliberately add some slop to what would otherwise come across as too sterile and machine-like. They add some amount of randomization or "humanization" to timing and/or pitch to keep things interesting. From experience I can say that even a tiny little bit can make a noticeable difference. Whether that difference is positive or negative depends entirely on what you're trying to do. Just thought it was an interesting perspective on the whole thing. We're talking about taking imperfect performances toward perfection, while so many are trying to take "perfect" things and mess them up a bit.

I don't disagree with what you have said here. I certainly have nothing against using all available tools to achieve what the creative mind envisions, be it effects, the studio itself, tape loops, plug-ins etc. The idea that I was trying to convey was that after the artists, engineers and all the other people involved in getting the vision down on tape or in the computer, that they start tweaking (not twerking) it to the point that the recording starts to loose the character of the musicians whose performance was captured. Correcting every little fat finger flub, every little vocal hiccup, every dropped beat to the point that it no longer portrays the personality and emotions of the performers.
I am not saying that perfection is something that we should not strive for, what I am asking is how far is to far too travel down that road.

 

[miroslav]

Whoa, now THAT is bad form. Discussing the content of PMs publicly? A new low.

Well...after I got publicly chastised a few times, then PM'd with a "sorry"...it just gets worn out and I'm not sure what part of that is sincere,….so what’s the real "content" then?

The cool thing is to say "sorry" publicly too….don’t you think?


I got no real gripes with Jimmy....I don't give him or any mods a hard time.
I would kinda like the same thing in return....or at least some fairness, and not just personal emotions and perspectives clouding what is really a forum-based situation in an open forum environment intended for debate and discussion.
IOW....are there actual rules being broken....???....or does someone just have a personal problem with something?

Anyway...I'm not going to get into it any deeper here. As I said....Jimmy, Chater and I can disucss it offline if there's really anything here that needs to be discussed.....which I think not, but I'll let Jimmy make that call since he raised this.

 

[ashcat_lt]

I don't disagree with what you have said here. I certainly have nothing against using all available tools to achieve what the creative mind envisions, be it effects, the studio itself, tape loops, plug-ins etc. The idea that I was trying to convey was that after the artists, engineers and all the other people involved in getting the vision down on tape or in the computer, that they start tweaking (not twerking) it to the point that the recording starts to loose the character of the musicians whose performance was captured. Correcting every little fat finger flub, every little vocal hiccup, every dropped beat to the point that it no longer portrays the personality and emotions of the performers.
I am not saying that perfection is something that we should not strive for, what I am asking is how far is to far to travel down that road.

That's not really a new thing either. Take a look into ZZ Top. Some of their biggest hits were actually pieced together note by note using some pretty old sampling technology. Seems like I've heard of Aerosmith using a similar method. I'm sure the list goes on.

 

[miroslav]

I would submit that many (if not most) home recordists are actually involved in the more electronic genres which don't in fact rely so heavily on live performance.

Hmmmm....you think that to be the case.....?

I've never taken any mental poll of all the different kinds of music being done by HR people....but from the stuff I've heard in the MP3 Clinic and in the few song contests we've had.....there was actually very little electronic music, and most of it was stuff recorded live.
Maybe not every single track on every songs...I mean, lots of folks squeeze in some synth part or maybe some loops....but it seemed that there was a lot of playing/recording.

 

[miroslav]

That's not really a new thing either. Take a look into ZZ Top. Some of their biggest hits were actually pieced together note by note using some pretty old sampling technology. Seems like I've heard of Aerosmith using a similar method. I'm sure the list goes on.

Yeah....I think there's a lot of edits and comps and punch-ins and what not in much of what we hear and consider great performances....so it's nothing unusual. I think sometime folks assume that everyone does 85 takes until it's perfect, rather than comp/edit....but it's just not the case.
That said....I also think it's possible to do that and NOT sound over-perfect. It all depends how deep and precise you get with it, IMO.

I have no problem saying that I comp tracks. Maybe not all the tracks...things like backing keyboard or rhythm guitar or what have you, it's usually a few takes until I get it, and then it just goes down....but vocals, and other more important tracks, it's usually about getting a few really good takes, and then coming from them.
It's just SO MUCH easier than doing 85 takes!!!

 

[ashcat_lt]

Hmmmm....you think that to be the case.....?

I've never taken any mental poll of all the different kinds of music being done by HR people....but from the stuff I've heard in the MP3 Clinic and in the few song contests we've had.....there was actually very little electronic music, and most of it was stuff recorded live.
Maybe not every single track on every songs...I mean, lots of folks squeeze in some synth part or maybe some loops....but it seemed that there was a lot of playing/recording.

I mean, I've never seen any statistics on it either, but I did say "home recordists", not "homerecording.com forum members". I'm thinking that we may have a somewhat skewed or biased subset of the sum total of people in the world recording at home. In fact, I sometimes feel like this particular forum is somewhat hostile to folks who aren't recording live instruments. At least, a lot of the tone of the this forum leans very heavily in the direction of traditional rock/pop styles. How many folks are out there making music at home who never come over here because they get everything they need from the FruityLoops forum, or Abelton, or Reaper, or whatever more genre-specific forums may exist out there?

 

[miroslav]

I see your point.
Yes....Rock and/or some subset of that is what usually flies here on HR. I think sometimes that works against some folks in the MP3 Clinic and in the few song contests we've had.

IOW....if it don't taste like some Rock flavor, it doesn't always get its due here.
I've heard a few guys put up some sweet Country/Bluegrass stuff...and it didn't get a lot of responses.
Then you have our house opera girl....Elan House.....she posts all those vids, but I hate to say it, at most, a few people are polite and give her a quick thumbs up....but that music just doesn't hit home here on HR.

I'm sure if we went to FutureProducers.com.....they probbaly think everyone is into Rap/Hip-Hop!

 

[Illsidgus]

I mean, I've never seen any statistics on it either, but I did say "home recordists", not "homerecording.com forum members". I'm thinking that we may have a somewhat skewed or biased subset of the sum total of people in the world recording at home. In fact, I sometimes feel like this particular forum is somewhat hostile to folks who aren't recording live instruments. At least, a lot of the tone of the this forum leans very heavily in the direction of traditional rock/pop styles. How many folks are out there making music at home who never come over here because they get everything they need from the FruityLoops forum, or Abelton, or Reaper, or whatever more genre-specific forums may exist out there?

I don't know if hostile is the right word here, I think ignored is more accurate. It seems to me that some of what may here be considered fringe genres of music that are posted to the mp3 clinic are mostly just ignored rather than any expressions of open hostility. I think many of us do that to some extent. I for one have really tried to listen to some of the "Screamo" posts but just cannot get through more than 10 or 15 seconds before I have to leave. Since I do that, I never reply to the posts. *For those who are fans of "Screamo", I am not judging the genre, for me it is hard to listen too.*

 

[Greg_L]

I mean, I've never seen any statistics on it either, but I did say "home recordists", not "homerecording.com forum members". I'm thinking that we may have a somewhat skewed or biased subset of the sum total of people in the world recording at home. In fact, I sometimes feel like this particular forum is somewhat hostile to folks who aren't recording live instruments.

No, this forum is hostile to people that are smug dicks about it. This forum is hostile to people that take and take and don't give. It's true there aren't many electronic/non-rock folks in here, but the ones that are active at this site get lots of feedback. The look-at-me's that pop in just to drop their shit don't get much attention. You get what you give when it comes to listens and feedback.

I know just for me personally, I spend a lot of time in the MP3clinic, and I won't bother with a track from someone that I know isn't a regularly active contributing member. If that makes me hostile or whatever, fine. If they are someone that I feel is a good member, I'll listen and comment no matter what the genre. I'm not suggesting that as a "rule" it's just my own little screening process.

 

[Greg_L]

Well...after I got publicly chastised a few times, then PM'd with a "sorry"...it just gets worn out and I'm not sure what part of that is sincere,….so what’s the real "content" then?

The cool thing is to say "sorry" publicly too….don’t you think?

.

I'm not getting between you two. I'm just saying that I think general unwritten forum etiquette is to not reveal private messages in any way shape or form unless you are given permission. That's why they're called "private messages". It's just not a good thing. Especially to use one to call someone out. I'm not perfect, I've probably done it myself at some point. I get lots of hate mail. I'm just saying....it's not a good thing to do.

 

[miroslav]

I've seen lots of people and even mods repost PMs over some situation....so like, it's a forum, there's nothing really "personal and sensitive" in nature for the most part....and I prefer to keep things on the open forum, especially if that's where it started.

Like the times when someone is in opposition to you in some thread and they play to the crowd against you on the open forum....
...then try and smooth it over with you privately.
I mean...what is that about?

 

[Greg_L]

I've seen lots of people and even mods repost PMs over some situation....so like, it's a forum, there's nothing really "personal and sensitive" in nature for the most part....and I prefer to keep things on the open forum, especially if that's where it started.

I've never seen a mod on any forum post private messages publicly. Just the general idea of a mod revealing private information publicly, or the notion that they have the power to read others' PMs incites internet riots. That I have seen. I have also seen regular members post private messages, and they always get called out. It's like shooting paratroopers before they hit the ground. It might be war, but you're just not supposed to do it.

Like the times when someone is in opposition to you in some thread and they play to the crowd against you on the open forum....
...then try and smooth it over with you privately.
I mean...what is that about?

Don't ask me. No one ever apologizes to me.

 

[miroslav]

No, not posting the exact PM as a cut/paste on the public forum,....but rather talking about a PM they received and what the sender generally said to them (usually it's about someone being pissed off at them)...yes, I've seen mods do that a few times.
Back when some people got banned, and other members were very upset about it, and then there was some big debate over it...yes, as validation for the ban, some aspect of what happened via PM was mentioned....rightly so.

I don't see that as a bad thing...there wasn't some personal secret revealed or anything like that.

When someone says..."this is just between you and me"....that's another story. That stays in the vault

Anyway..let's not keep going on and on about this.
I'm not looking to turn this into some big thing with Jimmy.
I would just like to know how much his views are personal...and how much it's about an actual HR rules infraction.

You and I don't agree on a lot of things (we also agree on a good deal too)...but I'm not going to ask the mods to bust your chops purely because of our differences of opinion.
I just think it sucks when things get personal....why go there...otherwise, we can disagree 'til the cows come home.

 

[Greg_L]

Ok then whatever.

Note to self, never PM miro again.

 

[miroslav]

You can PM me...just don't hate me on the forums...and then love me in the PM.

Makes me think you're being fickle.

 

[Greg_L]

You can PM me...just don't hate me on the forums...and then love me in the PM.

Makes me think you're being fickle.

I think I sent you a merry christmas pm or something? I meant it. We disagree online and in person I'd stab you in the throat with a dull #2 pencil, but those well wishes for the holidays were real.

 

[Armistice]

I don't have a purist viewpoint on music and music recording... or a mystical one. While I would prefer to be able to live track everything, there are often constraints that stop me that I can't control. So I have absolutely zero problems comping something which is not able to be tracked "live" at the time, whenever I need to.

Anyone who's ever seen/heard me play live in any setting knows I know my way round a guitar in my particular style pretty damn well and no listener to a recording has ever asked me whether I comped a particular thing or not. They don't know. They don't care. I don't care.

The end justifies the means..

 

[miroslav]

I think I sent you a merry christmas pm or something? I meant it. We disagree online and in person I'd stab you in the throat with a dull #2 pencil, but those well wishes for the holidays were real.

See....YOU just revealed a PM you sent to me!!!!

Yeah, I think I wished Merry XMas back to you.


Look man....be honest, are we really fighting/arguing around here with some deep anger....or is this more about basic forum kick-the-can amusements?

By now, you and I know exactly what we each like/dislike audio-wise, and we've both repeated our views on a variety of topics over the last few years, just like most of the veteran members have, every time someone starts a new thread about the same old thing.

Yeah, you've pissed me off a bunch of times, and I know I've done the same to you.... but I got no hate for you, it's JUST A FRIGGIN FORUM!!!!
I don't know why some folks get waaaaay too serious-tense and upset about the things that happen here and the discussions that take place.

I mean...no blood, no foul....right?

 

[miroslav]

... or a mystical one.