Anyone use one of these?

[RejectionNinja]

But its still different than what a power attenuator does (although I don't think that's what your arguing anyways).

We're in agreement there - said so myself.

I just don't see the benefit of using anything that does't allow you to actually PUSH the power tubes. Even if you have your master volume turned way up, if you're only feeding it a small signal, you're not pushing the power tubes into breakup or saturation. You're just adding another volume knob before the power section. I can see how this would be useful for an amp that doesn't have a channel volume, but I can't see the use for any other amp.

It may sound different than simply turning down the master but its still not going to sound the same has having the master wide open, and feeding the power section a hot signal. There's just no replacing that sound.

All you're getting with this device is still the same amount of power amp distortion (or less) than you'd get without it. And power amp distortion is what keeps us tube fanatics drooling

Well, what you're getting is a ton of headroom.

You're also gaining very fine control over your output volume which is sorely lacking in many amps. Just want to reiterate that some individual examples of the Peavey Classic series are louder than bedroom levels with the post amp on 0.

If your goal is to send a hotter signal to the power amp, these boxes are clearly the wrong solution.

 

[didgijimmy]

If your goal is to send a hotter signal to the power amp, these boxes are clearly the wrong solution.

That's what my goal was when posting. Me, having a very limited knowledge of electronics (I'm learning fast!), saw this thing on ebay and thought what it claimed to do is what I wanted. But its not, I wish to drive the power section into saturation and breakup, as previously discussed. But thanks for the input, and If I have the problem of my classic 30 being too loud for a bedroom at 0, then I'll look into the omnisonic again.
Thanks everybody
James

 

[RejectionNinja]

This post has been edited with the specific purpose of making you wonder what used to be here.

 

[ggunn]

That's a great suggestion.



Who said I don't believe you (or even that it was news to me)? It's not an issue of belief, it's an issue of interest. You're arguing the semantics of "master volume IN the power amp" and "master volume in the preamp but connected immediately to the power amp".

These devices allow you to turn the "master volume" much higher than normal, and then lower the volume via a variable resistor in the effects loop. These are facts. I have referred to "turning the master volume much higher" as "cranking the power amp" and you are arguing semantics which is not interesting. (Maybe you thought I didn't believe you because I didn't graciously thank you? Actually it just wasn't interesting.)



Have you ever used this device? Have you ever used anything like this device? Are you just an internet expert talking about something you've never used?

You're jumping on my case because I said "crank the power amp" when I meant "crank the master volume knob on the amplifier". Sincere question: What is your problem? To be honest, I don't think I've ever seen even a dedicated power amp that went above 0 or unity. Why would anybody (except you) interpret what I said as anything different than cranking the master volume knob?

My first hand experience involved an amplifier that was painfully loud with the master volume on 3 out of 12. Using a volume box in the effects loop made the amp infinitely more usable and improved the high gain tone.

Instead of being an internet expert talking about something you've never used, I respectfully suggest that you try one of these devices.

Also, feel free to start a new hobby and leave me alone.

C'mon, man, the attitude is completely unnecessary. You weren't clear (at least to me) in what you were saying. I do have more than a passing expertise in electronics (credentials available upon request), and I wasn't arguing semantics, I was simply taking what you said at face value. My point is and was simply that nothing in the preamp/effects loop chain that enables the amp to run at a low volume can be (at the same time) driving the power section hard. The power section volume is controlled by the amplitude of its input signal and nothing else. If it's cranked, it's loud unless you have a device as was being discussed earlier inserted between the power amp and the speakers.

I interpreted you to be saying that something you insert in the effects loop can drive the power tubes into saturation at low volume. The preamp section, certainly, but the power section, no. If that is not what you were saying, then I misinterpreted you and I apologize.

 

[Roguetitan]

Here's my spin on the volume control with an optional bypass switch added. I'm guessing a potentiometer anywhere from 100kohms to 250kohms would work OK. You could even go a step further and add another switch to mute/kill any sound going through.

Radio Shack 100Kohm Pot - $2.99
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062287

Knob for Pot - $1.99
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3014503&tab=summary

Cheap Aluminum Box - $2.99
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062217

1/4" Jacks (2 Pak) - $3.99
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103379

Optional Cheap Switch - $2.99
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062542&tab=summary

Parts total = $14.95

Thanks for all the research on that Arcaxis, looks like I may have another project in the works

Rejectionninja how you have explained your debate is pretty much how I was understanding how this box actually works and also judging from other reviews on a similar box kind if confirms what you are saying and what I was thinking how it works. I don't need any more power than what the amp alrerady puts out I just need to reduce the volume of what is already there in order to get the tone at a lower volume.
which is basically the whole purpose for having a lower watt amp to begin with so I can get fully saturated power tube tone at a lower volume.
I want the tone but I don't want my ears to bleed trying to achieve getting it.
that probably only made sense to me but at least I understood what I said

 

[Tadpui]

Thanks for all the research on that Arcaxis, looks like I may have another project in the works

Rejectionninja how you have explained your debate is pretty much how I was understanding how this box actually works and also judging from other reviews on a similar box kind if confirms what you are saying and what I was thinking how it works. I don't need any more power than what the amp alrerady puts out I just need to reduce the volume of what is already there in order to get the tone at a lower volume.
which is basically the whole purpose for having a lower watt amp to begin with so I can get fully saturated power tube tone at a lower volume.
I want the tone but I don't want my ears to bleed trying to achieve getting it.
that probably only made sense to me but at least I understood what I said

If those things are what you want, then you'll need a power attenuator and not one of these devices. These devices simply can't drive the power section into saturation at lower volume. I'm still not exactly sure what they do other than offer another volume knob to turn

 

[ggunn]

Thanks for all the research on that Arcaxis, looks like I may have another project in the works

Rejectionninja how you have explained your debate is pretty much how I was understanding how this box actually works and also judging from other reviews on a similar box kind if confirms what you are saying and what I was thinking how it works. I don't need any more power than what the amp alrerady puts out I just need to reduce the volume of what is already there in order to get the tone at a lower volume.
which is basically the whole purpose for having a lower watt amp to begin with so I can get fully saturated power tube tone at a lower volume.
I want the tone but I don't want my ears to bleed trying to achieve getting it.
that probably only made sense to me but at least I understood what I said

Absolutely. I used to gig with a 50 watt Marshall with 8 10's, and I have the tinnitus to prove it. I used a power attenuator for a while, but it really didn't sound the same to me, tone-wise. Nowadays, I gig with a 20 watt Deluxe Reverb into a single 12 and my ears are much happier.

 

[RejectionNinja]

I interpreted you to be saying that something you insert in the effects loop can drive the power tubes into saturation at low volume. The preamp section, certainly, but the power section, no. If that is not what you were saying, then I misinterpreted you and I apologize.

Didn't meant to lash out quite that hard. It's just been one of those weeks when absolutely everyone has argued with absolutely everything I've said, and then this just pushed my buttons. Sorry, only human. Going back now to redact my previous post.

For the official record, I never meant to say or imply that you can drive your power amp using a variable resistor. For the official record, I do think you can improve certain amps using these volume boxes.

 

[ggunn]

Didn't meant to lash out quite that hard. It's just been one of those weeks when absolutely everyone has argued with absolutely everything I've said, and then this just pushed my buttons. Sorry, only human. Going back now to redact my previous post.

For the official record, I never meant to say or imply that you can drive your power amp using a variable resistor. For the official record, I do think you can improve certain amps using these volume boxes.

That's OK; everyone has weeks like that. No harm, no foul.

 

[RejectionNinja]

In an attempt to be helpful, here's a link to some DIY attenuator projects.

http://www.amptone.com/g243.htm

Also here's a link explaining the difference between resistive and reactive dummy loads.

http://amps.zugster.net/articles/attenuation

I had three paragraphs written on that topic but why reinvent the wheel?

If you're a tone snob, pay attention to those reactive dummy loads. It uses an actual voice coil from a speaker, and therefore has the actual frequency-dependent impedance that a real speaker has, but no speaker cone and no output sound. Any other solution (i.e. complicated resistive loads) are merely attempts at mimicking the frequency-dependent impedance.

 

[Roguetitan]

If those things are what you want, then you'll need a power attenuator and not one of these devices. These devices simply can't drive the power section into saturation at lower volume. I'm still not exactly sure what they do other than offer another volume knob to turn

I don't think so
I have a Power attenuator but I think this will work exactly the way I need it to
If I am wrong then I ain't out but 20 bucks but I have read 25 different reviews on this box from 25 different people and they are all saying the same thing pretty much about how this device works, they all cant be wrong and I trust that rejection ninja knows a little bit about what he is talking about which pretty much confirms what the people who has posted reviews are saying how it works.
I am not one to theorize so I will just try one and find out for myself whether it works or not

 

[didgijimmy]

I don't think so
I have a Power attenuator but I think this will work exactly the way I need it to
If I am wrong then I ain't out but 20 bucks but I have read 25 different reviews on this box from 25 different people and they are all saying the same thing pretty much about how this device works, they all cant be wrong and I trust that rejection ninja knows a little bit about what he is talking about which pretty much confirms what the people who has posted reviews are saying how it works.
I am not one to theorize so I will just try one and find out for myself whether it works or not

Please post your findings on it. I would be interested in seeing if you are actually able to drive the poweramp into saturation at low volumes (i assume this is your goal). I don't think it will work though seeing as in my eyes you would be sending the poweramp an even smaller signal than before. And if this device does work the way the people in reviews say, then why don't they sell a crapton instead of the $300 Hotplates? But if it works I wont complain.

 

[RejectionNinja]

It seems to me like a Sansamp pedal (for example) in the effects loop would be perfect for driving the power amp into saturation at lower volumes.

I have the 3 channel programmable bass pedal shown here, and it includes a +10 db switch in addition to the healthy amplification in normal mode.

Sansamp 3 channel programmable bass DI pedal

I don't have the spec sheet handy but I would guess that it'll make something close to +20 db with the boost switch (maybe more?) That ought to be enough to kick the power amp in the nuts.

Any effect in the loop that boosts the gain would do the same thing, but 1) few things will boost as much as the above Sansamp pedal, 2) the Sansamp will boost with 0 effects, and 3) 3 programmable channels

I've never tried it but I'm contemplating it right now...

 

[ggunn]

It seems to me like a Sansamp pedal (for example) in the effects loop would be perfect for driving the power amp into saturation at lower volumes.

I'm going to tread as lightly as I can here...

Any way you drive the power amp into saturation, it will be just as loud as any other way. Power section saturation is a function of output power. I'm not saying that there's no way to putz with the power section input waveform to simulate power tube saturation, but it's the amount of current passing through the power tubes that produces (defines) saturation, and that translates directly into volume.

 

[Roguetitan]

I'm going to tread as lightly as I can here...

Any way you drive the power amp into saturation, it will be just as loud as any other way. Power section saturation is a function of output power. I'm not saying that there's no way to putz with the power section input waveform to simulate power tube saturation, but it's the amount of current passing through the power tubes that produces (defines) saturation, and that translates directly into volume.

Not volume but gain, gain and volume are two different animals

 

[didgijimmy]

I'm going to tread as lightly as I can here...

Any way you drive the power amp into saturation, it will be just as loud as any other way. Power section saturation is a function of output power. I'm not saying that there's no way to putz with the power section input waveform to simulate power tube saturation, but it's the amount of current passing through the power tubes that produces (defines) saturation, and that translates directly into volume.

I sense that ya'll might be onto something here. Imagine, simple product with the same effect as a Hotplate $350 bucks cheaper, and stemming from a post I started! Be sure to put a picture of my noggin on the bottom of the pedal and on the box.

Note: ^the above is me being unserious^

 

[ermghoti]

The short answer:

A master volume knob reduces the signal sent to the power section.

Adding a volume knob in the effects loop duplicates the master volume function. It will behave exactly as a master volume does, with the exact same benefits and downfalls, because it is exactly the same thing.

Putting the amp's master on 10 and turning the knob in the loop halfway* is the same as having no knob in the loop and the master halfway down.

*"Halfway" meaning a 50% attenuation of signal, the physical positions of the knobs may well differ.

 

[didgijimmy]

The short answer:

A master volume knob reduces the signal sent to the power section.

Adding a volume knob in the effects loop duplicates the master volume function. It will behave exactly as a master volume does, with the exact same benefits and downfalls, because it is exactly the same thing.

Putting the amp's master on 10 and turning the knob in the loop halfway* is the same as having no knob in the loop and the master halfway down.

*"Halfway" meaning a 50% attenuation of signal, the physical positions of the knobs may well differ.

So, your take on the omnisonic is that it is a scam, unless the knob is somehow less sensitive than the master volume of the amp? By your description that is the only benefit I can see.

 

[RejectionNinja]

I'm going to tread as lightly as I can here...

Any way you drive the power amp into saturation, it will be just as loud as any other way. Power section saturation is a function of output power. I'm not saying that there's no way to putz with the power section input waveform to simulate power tube saturation, but it's the amount of current passing through the power tubes that produces (defines) saturation, and that translates directly into volume.

Yeah upon thinking for a second, you're absolutely right. It would be pointless to do as I described. It's just like adding another preamp gain stage, and it doesn't matter whether it's before the preamp or in the effects loop.

 

[didgijimmy]

Yeah upon thinking for a second, you're absolutely right. It would be pointless to do as I described. It's just like adding another preamp gain stage, and it doesn't matter whether it's before the preamp or in the effects loop.

Yay! a consensus!! Group hug?