Anyone know of a Yamaha AW16G discussion group?

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Just so everyone knows, I haven't forgotten about the forum or anything. The only hold up right now is setting up postgreSQL. I have to have our linux admin here at work set it up, and due to a Denial of Service Attack, router upgrades, and downed T1's (thanks for Verizon), he's been too busy the last few days. He'll be coming it to work any minute now and so I'll see if he can set it up today...I'm probably going to pay him some money just to make sure it is setup quickly.
 
AW16 vs the bigger brothers..

The AW16 does not have automated moving faders :( like the others, but:

When using it stand alone, you have several "scene" snapshots you can use for at least some automation.

When used with a midi sequencer (see Yamaha's list) you can have the midi sequencer do automation, fades up/down etc.

The AW16 processes in 24 bit, but only stores 16 bit on disk (not sure about the
others).

There are less knobs in general, and the lack of moving faders is probably the major difference.
Don't forget, the actual cost difference between the AW16 and the others at the manufacturers level is a lot less than the retail cost difference. Moving faders are not cheap!

If I won the lotto, I'd probably buy the fancier model, but I'm totally happy with the AW16 (except perhaps how difficult the sampler pad sequencing is, but I wasn't planning on using them anyhow..)

Gord
 
My two cents, about recent comments, and a question...

I've had my 16g for a few weeks now, and I've been knocked out by the overall quality of the initial recordings I'm producing. Coming from a cassette format, I'll be the first to admit that there is a learning curve; then again, 15 minutes of manual reading per night and some fiddling for anouther 15 minutes in the morning have brought me quickly up to speed in getting basic things done.
I just keep reminding myself that a month of learning will pay off in years of efficient recording--in other words... just be patient.

Yes, the build quality is excellent. The brushed aluminum housing is surprisingly appealing after touching so much plastic in recent years! Good move, Yamaha.

Yes, no defragging (I called yamaha), but as someone stated, backing up and then reformatting should solve most problems.
Yes, too, to the ability to take off (or add) the copyrighting feature that protects (yours or others') disks from copying.

For a nice discussion of the differences between the 16g and the 2816, see the last issue of SOS magazine (sound-on-sound.com), in which the reviewer also gives his ultimate blessings to the 16g.

ONE QUESTION: Although I really like the sampler (for drums) and am having good luck with laying down drum grooves, I've run into a frustrating little problem that the manual doesn't address clearly
(the manual doesn't address many things as clearly as I'd like):

*When I RECALL an entire sampled set to the four pads, and then
select, for example, some of the pads pads to trigger BANK B, I'm finding that the unit automatically swicthes back to BANK A for all pads when I begin recording. Has anyone else run into this?
(The manual implies that I can simply select any sample bank for each pad--using the SAMPLE EDIT button--but my unit keeps defaulting to BANK A when I begin recording.) Any ideas, gang?

By the way, ED BLACKMORE at the technical support line (In L.A.)
is really a Godsend. He has expertly and quickly answered a few initial questions I had, and if he's typical of Yamaha support, I feel that we're in great hands. I promised him that I wouldn't call often, though, so I'm saving questions for a, say, once per month call if no one in our new chat group can solve an issue. At least he's there when/if we need him.

I'm obviously looking forward to our new discussion group! We all have a lot to learn--and to share. I'm looking forward to it.

Happy holidays to you,
J.
 
The AW16 does not have automated moving faders like the others

Could somebody please explain to me what 'Automated Moving Faders' translate into? I am assuming that this refers to an equated movement of faders when one has effected a 'fade-out' action command on a unit. If I am wrong, here, please correct me by enlightening. If I am correct in what I assume, then - yes - I can see how that would be a real 'bummer' indeed.

I know that I have touched on this question, before, but (if you don't mind) I would like to throw it out again - this time, in a little more direct fashion. I have heard it mentioned that the Korg D-1600 was one machine where a CD mastered on it would be 'radio-ready'. All of the others that I had looked at, within the $1000 to $1500 range, listed the ability to master 'high quality demos' on it. My real question is this: If the same amount of mastering effort was to be applied to the same song, on two different machines (say, the Korg & the AW16G), then what is it that would make the one master sound better than the other. As I understand it, both of these machines utilize the very same bit-rate, and it is because of this that I find confusion within this. The closest that I can come to any reason in this, is that the sources of that information are all guitarists, and they are really knocked out as to the guitar 'sims' that the Korg incorporates (and that the Yamaha, apparently, does not). I am not a guitarist, or a bassist, so those features wouldn't mean much of anything to me. I am somewhat of a keyboardist, but mainly a singer. I know that someone, in an above post, mentioned that he wasn't really thrilled about his vocal efforts on the AW16. But he was also honest enough to state that it might have been due to some degree of error on his part - coupled with the fact that he wasn't accustomed to hearing his own voice. Any and all info on this machine is always appreciated, but I would really like to hear from someone who has done some extensive vocal work on this machine; to find what the feelings were on the reproduction. I don't mean to bombard you all with so many questions, but I am a family man - and $1000, or better, is a LOT of money for me to put out. I just want to make sure that what I am intending upon (the AW16G) will be the best bet for the money.

Blessings,

Nate
 
NLAlston,
the reference to "automated moving faders" was a description of the mixing feature available on the Yamaha AW4416 and AW2816. when a mix is played back,
the faders actually (physically) MOVE up and down on the console (in accordance to the mix parameters that you have programmed into the unit). this is a nice feature as it let's you see AT AN INSTANT where all your "levels" are. the AW16G (and the Korg D1600) do not have this feature. mixing "automation" is possible in the form of SCENE CHANGES. using this method,..the channel levels DO change,..it's just that the actual faders DO NOT dance up and down on the cosole (MOVING FADERS come with a substantial price burden, and it was necessary for yamaha to leave them off to keep the price of the 16G so low). instead there is menu page where you can see graphic "representations" of the faders moving around. it is the next best thing.
the effects on the AW16G are very good and VERY tweakable. the effects on the D1600 are very good as well. i like the user interface on the D1600, but there one thing i find quite unforgivable about the unit. with all it's horsepower and features, there is only ONE SINGLE (MONO) EXTERNAL EFFECTS SEND. this meant that i couldn't patch in my favorite Lexicon STEREO reverb to sweeten my mix (there is some workaround using the monitor sends and muting channels and recording the effected signal but it just doesn't work when mixing to your stereo track. THANKFULLY the AW16 DOES allow connection to an external stereo processor. BOTH the Korg and the AW16 feature "scene recall" type automation. BUT,..there are TWO important features which put the AW16 ahead of the Korg. these are "TRULY"
PARAMETRIC 4-BAND EQ and EXTENSIVE DYNAMICS PROCESSING on EVERY CHANNEL!! this includes: Recorder channels 1-16, inputs 1-8 and sample pads 1-4.....ALL AT THE SAME TIME!!! this is an ASTOUNDING feature given the price of the unit. with these tools at your disposal (combined with some practice, a good ear AND some musical "common sense") you should have no problem making excellent sounding recordings on this unit. good luck.

p.s. i'll second the opinion of whoever said this little recorder was mechanically "very quiet". you almost have to lay your ear on the top panel to hear any noise at all.
:)

p.s.s. i would also say that (if you do alot of vocals) that i would not rely to heavily on the AW's onboard mic-pres to get the optimum results. i nice little outboard pre-amp (tube or otherwise) would sweeten the AWG package even further (this seems to be a common opinion of owners of practically every stand-alone DAW ever made,..INCLUDING the expensive ones).:D
 
Thanks Cratinus,

You have been very, very helpful, and - largely because of your input - I have decided to go with the AW16G.

Blessings,

Nate.
 
AW16 vs others for sound quality.

I don't claim the AW is better or worse than say the Korg, or the Roland units etc.
I would say in general the whole batch of current generation machines should easily be capable of creating a full professional sound, As Long As your outboard gear, and your capabilities as a recording engineer are up to that task.
There are probably some minor differences that audiophiles would like to haggle over, but these kind of issues are (imho) far less substantial than how careful you are at recording and mixing down, how tight your "band" is, how good your room sounds, etc. Technique and Tools.
I'd guess if you took any of these units into a top notch recording studio, and let the best engineer create a CD with one, the results would be top notch, just harder for him/her to use than the full blown professional tools they would normally use.
I think it's great that a hobbyist like myself can afford one of these units.
As a specific example, I recorded a song a couple years ago on the Roland VS1680, and I used my old trusty Shure SM58 for vocals. A freind helped me mix it down, and showed me how the total lack of a clean clear top end quite obviously hurt the sound, but it was a demo effort, so good enough for my beer budget.
Once I finish paying for the AW16 I'll be shopping around for a poor man's large diaphragm condenser mic for vocal work, like the Rode NT1 I keep hearing about. A top of the line recording mic can cost you more than the AW16 itself..
Gord Wait
 
Request to AW16G owners - try the soloing

One negative I have found is that the Solo feature does not work the way I would expect. I think it's a bug, and I hope to get all AW16G owners to send email to their local Yamaha support to get them interested in an eventual fix.
Description:
First go to the monitor page, and
turn off all sources of audio.
Then monitor a few inputs and tracks,
say for example, turn on monitor for
INPUT 1, TRACK 3 and TRACK 4.
Now, switch to the solo page,
and Solo TRACK 3 for a few seconds.
This will work, as you expect.
Now, UNSOLO TRACK 3, and go back to the Monitor page. You should now see that ALL inputs, tracks and pads are now monitored, so you have lost your monitor setup just by using Solo.
My tech support person was very sympathetic, and at least found a workaround: Before Soloing, make a SCENE snapshot and save it. After Soloing wipes out your monitor settings, restore the saved Scene.
She forwarded my bug report to yamaha (Japan?), who respond that this is the way it is. Not unexpected,
if only one customer complains...
For me the Solo bug means I won't likely use it very often, or at all.
So, please try it yourselves, and send in a bug report to your local support person, perhaps we can get it fixed.
It should only be a software change (save/restore current state, an OLD software concept!), so should not cost them a fortune to change, hopefully we can get field updates to our units..
Pass this on to any AW16 owners you know. I wonder if the higher end Yahama units have this bug?
Cheers,
Gord Wait
 
Nate,
WHICHEVER multitrack you decide on,..keep this in mind:

NONE OF THEM ARE PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

whether you buy a Roland, a Yamaha or a Korg....there will be features about each that you LOVE and features about each that BUG THE CRAP OUT OF YOU. you just have to decide on a recorder (and they are ALL good, mind you) that seems to offer the best features (for your needs) and just give it a rip. (I.E. ....recorder "A" offers such-and-such EFFECT capability but doesn't provide whatchamacallit COMPRESSION schemes,...recorder "B" offers a great recording specs but has no built in automation...recorder "C" has nice automation but crappy EQ and no memory spaces for customized effects...etc. etc.)

BOTTOM LINE....you really just have to DIVE IN and get to know WHATEVER unit you buy "inside out and upside down". if (at THAT POINT) you finally decide that it doesn't suit your needs, just sell it or trade it in on "the next best thing". keep in mind that MANY great recordings have been made on equipment FAR inferior to the D12, AW16G, VS1680 and so on.

the AW16G is NOT PERFECT . neither is the D12 or any of the others. BUT,.....they are ALL VERY GOOD. i still think that AW16 is the most "full featured" 16-bit DAW recorder currently available. i hope you like it. it DOES have limitations...but they all do. who knows,....something might come along (in a couple of months) that will blow the AW16 right out of the water. such is the way of digital progress. BUT,...yah gotta jump on the technology train at some point! cheers.:D
 
Cratinus,

Thanks very much for your very informative input. I know what you mean about there not being a "Perfect" recorder out there. I have checked out a number of units and found that with each one's strong point, there seems to be a weakness. I have never agonized as much over a prospective purchase, as I have - and am yet doing over this matter. I have heard the two Korg units (the D-12, and the D-16) and they both sounded really nice. One of the things that I really liked about the D-16 was the fact that the burner could be easily changed by the user. In my way of thinking, the burner would - more than likely - be the first thing to peter out, and the situation could very easily be remedied without a 'shop' visit. I am told that the same thing would apply to the D-12, and the USB connection capability was also something that I found captivating. With that unit, I could save a few bucks by utilizing that connection in conjunction with my PC's burner, until such time as I was ready to install one (if that was what I would desire to do).

Now, I never heard the AW16G, but never-the-less find myself drawn to it. As I have said earlier, I really like the fit & finish of this machine, and it feels like you've really got something there, when you pick that baby up. I wish that it had USB connection capability, as the Korg D-12 does, and one big problem that I have with the AW16G is that the burner CANNOT be changed by the user.

One other negative issue that I just learned today (which is supposed to be characteristic of all recorders) is that the mastered CD, on any of these units, has nowhere near the 'kick' of commercial CD's. Is this really an insurmountable problem with these recorders, or is there a work-around to champion this matter? I had previously figured that my QY700, and a decent Mic, would be all that I would need to do what I want to do. I hope, now, that I won't have to be looking at more external equipment, because I just wouldn't be able to swing it. I have Cakewalk Pro Audio 9, that my brother gave me when he bought the newest version (Sonar, I believe), but he had lost the manual, and 'picking' my way through it hasn't exactly been a rosy walk. Besides, I'd hate to tie the computer up from my children, and I could take the recorder up to my bedroom and sing away.

Well, I still have a week or so before these funds are supposed to be in. Right now I'm leaning toward the AW16G - yes, even with the downsides that I mentioned above - but we'll see where my direction is when my pocket is proper.

Blessings,

Nate
 
I have had my AW16G for about a week and have immersed myself in getting to know the unit. Thus far, I think the biggest pluses are:

1. Dynamics processing and 4 band parametric EQ on ALL channels. HUGE / MASSIVE feature!!!. I use a QY100 as a sequencer sound module for some demo work, and tweeking EQ and dynamics on the input for the QY improves the "kick" of recordings significantly. Having it available everywhere, all the time is very powerful. It would be very hard to go back to a world of not having this.

2. Quick navigation. While there is some learning curve here for sure (you have to study the manual over a couple of days), the navigation becomes very intuitive once learned, and there is not much cumbersome multi-level menus to sludge through. Most of the operations you tweek with in a mix are associated with a knob.

3. Overall fidelity. For the $$$, the final mixes you get out of this unit are tremendous. While you can tell that they are not pro studio masters, they are VERY listenable with good punch and with minimal to no listener fatigue.

4. Very solidly built. Amazing for the $$$.

Minuses:

1. While the reverbs / delays seem usable, my initial impression of some of the other effects(chorus, phaser, etc) as related to guitar use seem just OK. In defense of the AW16G, I have not had time to tweek them.

2. While the manual covers pretty much all the bases, it is needs a section where it takes you through a "typical" record / mixdown session step by step. This would cut the learning curve significantly The included DVD was perhaps supposed to do this, but it falls way short and I found it somewhat annoying.

Comments:

Amp sims are adequet to very good ... much better than expected. I use a SansAmp PSA-1 for guitar recording and the AW16G sims are not as good (IMHO, the PSA-1 is the best guitar direct record pre-amp). Still, I would put the sims in the same league as a Behringer V-AMP, J-Station, and even very close to the POD with tweeking. I have done some tweeking here and the tone and expression I can get is VERY usable.

Thus far I believe I made the right purchase. I am interested to see how the full MIDI setup and final edit / polish process goes ... have not had the time yet to really sit down and tweek / edit a mix. I also have not spent much time with the sampler yet. I like the sound clip element for capturing ideas.
 
Very appreciative, SurfMonster. You have been a huge help to me, also.

Blessings,

Nate
 
Just to add that I agree with almost all that Surfmonster has written about the 16G. I've had mine for about 3 weeks and have already produced and burned--in my very spare time--a nicely polished 10-track recording. I can't rave enough about the quality of this machine... and all for under $1K. As SM wrote, the dynamics processing and EQ (both of these on all channels) really helps to put together a professional mix. Moreover, despite my
analog background, I've managed to plunder my way through each step without much cursing or physical abuse of any type.
Sure, there's a learning curve, but as previously written, almost nothing is more than a button or single screen away, which makes a lot of difference when getting started. Also, there's a certain inherent logic to the entire machine that begins to become clearer as I add new pieces to my knowledge.

One point of disagreement with SM, though. I've been passing off my first recording as a track off the the new Steve Morse CD, and folks here have been responding enthusiastically. OK, you and I know that it's not in the same league, but still, the sound is
exceptional given a little bit of care during recording and mixdown. Even the sampled drum tracks, aided by keyboard stereo drum fills, sound surprisingly alive and well.

In short, I'm in digital heaven, and I'm looking foward to sharing
tips and questions on our new dedicated chat-site once it's up.
The future has never looked brighter for this semi-pro musician and former Tascam Porta owner.

My next opus will use all 16 tracks, which are a lot easier to fill than I'd expected. In fact, the biggest danger I face these days is
the tendancy to overproduce everything with so many possibilities here. But such sweet danger.

My best to all of you 16Gers,
J.
 
I guess I should clarify... I DEFINITELY agree with Jefree that the quality of the AW16G final mixes CAN EASILY be passed off as a production CD. Heck, there are MANY CD's out there that I have heard that are MUCH worse. When I commented on the overall quality, I was comparing it to studio masters I have heard listening direct off of equipment worth more than people's CL500 Mercedes, and obviously, there is a subtle difference. The difference I heard is just a little less "liquid" presentation vs. the reference. AGAIN, I would not call this a negative for the 16G, just a point of absolute reference ... and not a fair one. But the fact that I thought to compare is a credit to the 16G.

In sum, I could not be more happy with the quality of the final mixes with the 16G. I actually was expecting a more "digital" sound, but it is vanishingly low. It is truely amazing for under $1K, WITH NO OTHER OUTBOARD RECORDING OR PROCESSING EQUIPMENT other than instrument inputs / mics, that you can get a mix that SOUNDS VERY PROFESSIONAL !
 
yamaha!

I just wanted to bump this thread by saying that an extra Yamaha DAW user forum (AW 4416, 2816 and 16G) would be greatly appreciated by me as well!

I know there already are boards for these, but nevertheless it would be nice to have one under the roof of HR.com. And I feel discriminated by the fact that there are forums for Roland and Fostex users... :D
 
Touche, Surfmonster. I can see now that we agree, and I should add that I was being a tad sarcastic about the high quality of my recordings. Still, the sound is much better than I expected, especially in regards to, as you mention, the lack of a strongly
digital quality (hardness). My acoustic guitars are ringing quite full and sweet after I carefully EQ and (slightly) process them.

J.
 
It will definitely be the AW16G - and that is now cut in stone.
 
NLAlston,you CAN install a CD-RW drive in the AW16G.It's right here in my owner's manual (pages 10-11) Cheers
 
Fuzzy Dice,

You have just added icing to an already sweet cake. Not being able (or so I had read) to change the hard-drive out was one thing that really bothered me. It wasn't only stated that the hard-drive wasn't 'user-changeable' - but that there was just one drive that would fit it, and Yamaha was the place where it could be gotten. Apparently that source was wrong, because you have it right there in front of you - right out of the horse's mouth - what the true situation is regarding that matter. My appreciation to you is HUGE.

Blessings,

Nate.
 
NLAlston,I said CD-RW drive not hard drive.As for the hard drive i bet it will be easy to install once inside the 16G's case but is a 2.5 inch notebook drive not a regular 3.5 . A 40 gig IBM 2.5 is $123 at newegg.com.I wonder if these would work as an upgrade to the 20 gig 2.5 in the 16G although I don't see the need for it in my situation right now.As for the CD-RW drive, it gives you step by step instructions in the owner's manual. you can download the owner's manual here in PDF format http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/pa/english/recorders/AW16GE.pdf
 
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