Anybody know anything about copyright law? Kind of a unique question...

mjr

mjr

ADD -- blessing and curse
Years ago my father wrote some poetry. He gave me three poems that he hand-wrote. They have his name on them, and they're just written on paper.

I've been thinking of publishing them, either as poems or trying to turn them into songs, but I don't know the implications there as far as copyright goes. I mean, they ARE his, and they are technically "copyrighted" (though it's not registered).

I can't ask him, because he passed on at the end of 2018, so I don't know what to do. I could keep them as keepsakes, and that's something I'm considering, too, but what are the legal/copyright implications here?
 
In US copyright, songwriting is split 50% between "music" and "lyrics" (with a little bit of wiggle room between music being the melody that is sung and music being the chord progression.)
A reasonable split of ownership for the final song (as written) would be 50/50 between the two of you, but you would own the actual recordings. So more or less, his estate would receive 4.55 cents for every copy of the song you sold (half of the 9.1 cent statutory rate for songwriters. I don't know how those numbers map to streaming income, but I believe there is a formula for that too.

This is made a little more complicated in that writing a new melody to his existing lyrics is a derivative work, which requires permission from the other author (or their estate).

If you never publish the songs and only record them for your own personal listening, there isn't really any copyright implications to consider. You can do pretty much whatever you want for private usage.

So if you want to publish these songs, the best option would be to figure out who his next of kin was: the person who inherited his intellectual property by default (unless he specifically willed such things to someone). Talk to them; work out some kind of arrangement and then adhere to that.
 
VomitHatSteve said:
In US copyright, songwriting is split 50% between "music" and "lyrics" (with a little bit of wiggle room between music being the melody that is sung and music being the chord progression.)
A reasonable split of ownership for the final song (as written) would be 50/50 between the two of you, but you would own the actual recordings. So more or less, his estate would receive 4.55 cents for every copy of the song you sold (half of the 9.1 cent statutory rate for songwriters. I don't know how those numbers map to streaming income, but I believe there is a formula for that too.

This is made a little more complicated in that writing a new melody to his existing lyrics is a derivative work, which requires permission from the other author (or their estate).

If you never publish the songs and only record them for your own personal listening, there isn't really any copyright implications to consider. You can do pretty much whatever you want for private usage.

So if you want to publish these songs, the best option would be to figure out who his next of kin was: the person who inherited his intellectual property by default (unless he specifically willed such things to someone). Talk to them; work out some kind of arrangement and then adhere to that.
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Ok, as far as I'm aware, he has/had no estate. He didn't really own any property when he passed, except for some DVDs, some vinyl records (I think), and some jewelry. My sister basically got all of that (or, more appropriately, took all of that). I don't think he had a will, either. I mean, he gave these poems to me in the 1990's, so I've had them in my possession for close to 30 years. I do have a sister, and I don't even know if she knows I have them. My dad passed, as I said, at the end of 2018.

There is really not an "other author". He hand wrote two of them, and typed up the 3rd. There are no other copies. So I'm not sure who the "estate" would be (unless it's me and possibly my sister).
 
mjr said:
Years ago my father wrote some poetry. He gave me three poems that he hand-wrote. They have his name on them, and they're just written on paper.

I've been thinking of publishing them, either as poems or trying to turn them into songs, but I don't know the implications there as far as copyright goes. I mean, they ARE his, and they are technically "copyrighted" (though it's not registered).

I can't ask him, because he passed on at the end of 2018, so I don't know what to do. I could keep them as keepsakes, and that's something I'm considering, too, but what are the legal/copyright implications here?
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IANAL, as they say, but copyright [registration] is not something that only the author can have or claim. In fact, many authors of works had publishers who [legally, if unscrupulously] registered the copyright and made all the money of the work. (In the U.S., at least, it's only the *registration* of copyright that has legal "teeth" to protect works.)

If your father and you never published them (print or online), then as a non-lawyer, I'd say you can submit a copyright registration application of the collected works. (Been a few years since I did that, but guessing it's still possible.) You can put what/whomever you want in the owner, but I'd say you can put yourself as the owner, as you have the original works, conveyed to you by the author. Just hope you don't get rich off one of your songs and the other heir(s) find out :)
 
Realistically, what are you trying to keep from happening?

If you are worried about anyone stealing the poems, it really wouldn't make any difference unless the person who took it made money from it. Even then, it just gives the copyright holder the ability to spend eyewatering amounts of money trying to take the money away from the person who figured out how to monetize it.

Since the person who wrote it has passed, he can't defend his rights, so putting it in his name is pointless.

If you feel the need to copyright it, do it in your name, since you are the one that can defend it.
 
in the U.K. it’s 70 years after death, and on passing the right is then administered by the person who inherited as if it’s a physical object. One really simple method would be to write some music, and get them out there through a distributor like distrokid(spit) or songtradr. Music by and lyrics by. You could choose today as the date and as you own the rights use your name, or his. Using his is more complicated as he’s passed, but the vital thing is once it is on Spotify, Apple Music iTunes, YouTube etc, your rights are very public.
 
Oh! I misread "father" as "friend". That makes things way simpler (or potentially more complex if anyone wants to fight over it). If you and your sister are the only next of kin, she's the only one to sort it out with. Does she want to claim any of his copyright ownership of them? If not, then they're yours. If she does, negotiate her as owning some % of your dad's half, and pay her out of any money you make from the final song.
 
VomitHatSteve said:
Oh! I misread "father" as "friend". That makes things way simpler (or potentially more complex if anyone wants to fight over it). If you and your sister are the only next of kin, she's the only one to sort it out with. Does she want to claim any of his copyright ownership of them? If not, then they're yours. If she does, negotiate her as owning some % of your dad's half, and pay her out of any money you make from the final song.
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Honestly, I don't even know that she knows that I still have them. I looked the other day, and one was dated from 1994, another from 1999, and the 3rd is undated.
 
mjr said:
Years ago my father wrote some poetry. He gave me three poems that he hand-wrote. They have his name on them, and they're just written on paper.

I've been thinking of publishing them, either as poems or trying to turn them into songs, but I don't know the implications there as far as copyright goes. I mean, they ARE his, and they are technically "copyrighted" (though it's not registered).

I can't ask him, because he passed on at the end of 2018, so I don't know what to do. I could keep them as keepsakes, and that's something I'm considering, too, but what are the legal/copyright implications here?
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You can Copywrite them or not - it doesn't matter - you want to protect them? Copywrite - if you think any money is going to be derived you can split anyway you want.
 
First off a though your Dad's poems are in theory "copyrighted" they are not protected by US copyright laws until they are officially copyrighted at the USPTO. In other words yes they are copyrighted but you can not sue anyone in the U.S. until you have a U.S. Copyright on them.

Once your Dad passed all his property was placed in control of the executor of his estate. The Executor is in control of everything of value and decides who gets what. They can keep it all and you can fight them for it in court or they can distribute everything as the deceased had asked for it to be distributed in his will.

In your case whoever was executor of the estate is who you need to ask permission to use the poems if the poems were not already given to you by them. The odds of the poems actually in the end making enough money to amount to anything for someone to sue for is similar to the odds of winning the lottery....but people win the lottery all the time...just the odds are infinitesimal...

If it were me I'd just get permission to use the lyrics from whomever was given the original poems cause that is who owns them at this juncture, If the executor let you have them you own them... and it's your football to do with as you wish...

Here's a link to the copyright office and the page you and anyone who wants to know the legality of copyrights in the U.S. should read.
 
Sorry I didn't read all the post till after...You own the poems.. He gave them to you. They are yours to do with as you wish.... If they make any real money you will need to get them copyrighted in the U.S. if you want to sue anyone for infringement.
 
mjr said:
Honestly, I don't even know that she knows that I still have them. I looked the other day, and one was dated from 1994, another from 1999, and the 3rd is undated.
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The conversation should go something like "hey sis, dad wrote me some poems back in the 90s. I'm gonna write some songs based on them. Theoretically, you would own half of his share of the songwriting credit for these things. Do you actually care if I keep track of the fractions of a penny you'd be owed from streaming?"
Probably, she doesn't care, and then the lyrics are yours to do what you want with. If she does insist that she wants her share, give her a dollar and a receipt. There's no need to do any math until you start getting into 100s of thousands of streams or 100s of physical albums sold.
 
Again the chances of this ever being a financial thing to fight over is HIGHLY unlikely. That said, they were given to you by your Dad.. He gave them to you, not you and your sister. He made no mention of if they are ever worth anything you need to share 50/50 with your sister. Guess what I'm trying to say is don't sweat it just do what you want to do with them..Totally don't hide the fact that you are doing what you are doing with your sister. If by some rare chance they actually do generate REAL income that exceeds like a thousand bucks at that juncture even though you don't have to legally, it'd be cool to give her a 25% share just to be cool cause it was her Dad too. You get all the song writing rights and you split the lyrics portion with her 50/50... Just do it and don't sweat it. It'll be a cool way to honor your Pops...
 
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TAE said:
YOu get all the song writing rights... Just do it and don't sweat it. It'll be a cool way to honor your Pops...
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This is one of the things I'm curious about. My dad wrote them as poems. If I turned them into songs wouldn't that make me a co-writer? Or are you suggesting that since my dad gave them to me in the 1990's that I could list myself as writer?

I doubt I make any real money on them (I mean, heck, I've only made 52 cents on my last release that's been out over a year, I think). I just want to keep everything legal.
 
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The original work’s copyright came into existence when they were written down on paper. It’s just never been registered and you can do that. I guess I wasn’t clear enough before but you do not have to be the author to register your copyright. Whether that’s a written work of collected poems (PA) by someone else or a song (PA or SR), you have your name on that document so own the rights. You can assign those rights or not.

There are a lot of documents at copyright.gov worth reading and a real long thread at the UMGF but it’s not completely current (and neither am I). If you know they were original, unpublished works and your father gave you the only copy, register them and sleep easy is my suggestion.
 
mjr said:
This is one of the things I'm curious about. My dad wrote them as poems. If I turned them into songs wouldn't that make me a co-writer? Or are you suggesting that since my dad gave them to me in the 1990's that I could list myself as writer?

I doubt I make any real money on them (I mean, heck, I've only made 52 cents on my last release that's been out over a year, I think). I just want to keep everything legal.
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Bernie Taupin and Elton John 50/50 .....Bernie writes the lyrics, Elton puts them to music....This is exactly what you are doing...so yeah if the music version makes money and you wrote the music you own 50% of the rights right off the top...Like I already said you own the lyrics 100% to because your Dad gave them to you.. So really you own 100% of the song. Again if by some bizarre chance the song or the poem generated REAL $$$$ by default it's all yours but your Sis could try and fight you for half of the lyrics, she probably would not win in court but like I said if that miracle were to happen it'd the cool thing to give her half of the lyrics side of the $$$$.... Most importantly don't let this legality shit stop you from doing a very cool thing in honoring your Dad. Worry about the monetary stuff when there's monetary stuff to worry about. Get r Done!
 
TAE said:
Bernie Taupin and Elton John 50/50 .....Bernie writes the lyrics, Elton puts them to music....This is exactly what you are doing...so yeah if the music version makes money and you wrote the music you own 50% of the rights right off the top...Like I already said you own the lyrics 100% to because your Dad gave them to you.. So really you own 100% of the song. Again if by some bizarre chance the song or the poem generated REAL $$$$ by default it's all yours but your Sis could try and fight you for half of the lyrics, she probably would not win in court but like I said if that miracle were to happen it'd the cool thing to give her half of the lyrics side of the $$$$.... Most importantly don't let this legality shit stop you from doing a very cool thing in honoring your Dad. Worry about the monetary stuff when there's monetary stuff to worry about. Get r Done!
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Oh yeah and when you do complete these post em here man. It'd be cool to see the collaboration. Good luck!
 
The legal and copyright implications are dramatically diminished if you don't talk about it. Just make the music and have fun.
 
That leaves you stuck, though? You make the music, but youtube might remove it, and getting it to people to hear becomes a problem. If it's for your own use it doesn't matter, but if you can't let people hear what you've produced, what's the point?
 
rob aylestone said:
That leaves you stuck, though? You make the music, but youtube might remove it, and getting it to people to hear becomes a problem. If it's for your own use it doesn't matter, but if you can't let people hear what you've produced, what's the point?
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Youtube doesn't remove anyone's music. The only time music is removed is when a copyright owner makes a copyright strike. And even then, that never happens. At worst, copyright is claimed and all that means is that the copyright owner gets whatever advertising money is generated.

I literally have about 25 cover songs on my Youtube page. Didn't bother with licensing or anything. Just record them and put them up. Most just get copyright claimed by the copyright owner, which means someone else gets the 32 cents I would have made. Some are not affected at all. No claim, nothing. Never has a song ever been blocked or taken down. That's a copyright STRIKE, which is different than a claim and I've never seen that happen.

As a side note, Youtube itself isn't the "bad guy" when that happens. They don't decide to take anything down until a claim is made by Don Henley. :D

It's never Youtube arbitrarily taking anything down. They don't do that. They just do what the copyright owner asks them to do.
 
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