any church players here??

[whattaguy]

My name's Christian, and I'm a youth pastor. I totally agree that no one will come to Christ or go to heaven because of me or any other human being. I totally agree that "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." I didn't mean to sound like I was "validating" your walk with God. What I am saying and what the Scripture is saying is that there is no other way to God, but through Jesus.

I believe that God is holy and perfect in His being, and the only way that imperfection (me, a very sinful man) can have fellowship with Him is through perfection; Jesus Christ. He had to have the perfect Man to be the perfect sacrifice to restore our relationship with the perfect God. He can't have it any other way or else He would cease to be perfect. Does that make sense?

For me to say I am not judgmental, I would be a liar. I have a lot to improve on in that area, and I ache and regret when things come out of me as judgmental...and I feel like a hypocrite. I'm sorry if you took that previous statement as judgmental, but Scripture isn't all about being warm and fuzzy inside. It cuts to the heart.

I agree with you, though, that the church is far too full of elitists saying that they are better than another person. When the older folk at my church treat my youth as 2nd class, my heart drops. When my youth make a gay-bashing comment, my heart drops. And when I do both these things and even worse in my heart, I feel like quitting. That's why I need Jesus' to cover over my sinful ways and forgive me for what I've done. That's grace.

Sorry if I sounded preachy.

Because of Him,

Christian

 

[apl]

<<<You have passed judgement when it was not your place to do so.>>>

I did not. God did. He said we're all guilty. This is no more judgemental than that time we were all smoking dope and a bunch of cops pulled up to the back door of the apartment building, and someone says, "It's the cops!" I'm in the apartment breaking the law, and you're in the apartment breaking the law, and everyone else is, too. Should I just quietly slip out the front door and leave you hanging? I think not. We should all help each other make the best of the bad situation.

<<<The proverbial pot calling the kettle black. Especially as I could say "you are a sinner" to any christian, and be correct.>>>

That proverb, as well as the speck-beam thing, have to do with the attitude of the pot. In the proverb, the pot is smug about the kettle's blackness. I am the worst guy I know. I can't even see any speck in your eye. I can barely see you at all, because there's this tree trunk growing out of my head. I only know that you are a human being, and therefore guilty before God.

<<<...making someone else feel inferior...Browbeat people for not believing like you do...Verbally smacking someone...shows intolerance and elitism>>>

Doing that would be wrong. That's not me. At least not the me I'm trying to be. I apologize if I came across that way.

<<<It's not up to you, or your divine duty, or your great commission, to work out my salvation. Thats between me and God.>>>

Again you are correct. I am under obligation, in the lovingest way possible, in the humblest way possible, in the most "you seem like a really nice guy, much better than I" way, to make you aware of your cosmic situation. After that, it's all up to you. And no matter what you do with it, I will never, ever, ever, think of myself as better than you.

We don't even need to talk about "big" sins. I preach to kids, and when I talk to them about needing to deal with the sins that they have committed, I ask them, "Ever murdered anyone?" No, they say. "Stolen a car?" No again. "Cheat on your wife?" No, and they're feeling pretty good. "Ever lie to your mommy?" Gets quiet. "Fight with your brother or sister?" Quieter. "Argue about bedtime?" All those things are violations of God's law, and are capital offenses. Seems a little harsh, I know, but God's holiness is what it is and so He expects perfection. But He also knows about our frailty, and and because of His love, makes an easy way to deal with the sin problem.

And that's why I play in church.

 

[MadMinute]

You guys still don't get it, and probably never will, And i'm done trying to explain.
I'll leave you to work out your own salvation. Please do me the favor, and everyone else you meet as well, by allowing me to do the same thing.

I must try to raise one more point though.

Nowhere in my original post did I ever say I did'nt believe in God. Nowhere did I say I was needing any of you all's help. Some of you made some really large assumptions about me without having the sense to ask. You just assumed because I did'nt look at things like you that I was different from you and therefore needed your intervention in my life. This is incredibly presumptuous and rude. And it's also why so many people get turned off by this message of modern christianity.

My original comment stated that I used to play in a P&W band and that I ran FOH at a large church in L.A. I also stated why I won't do that anymore. Thats pretty much all I said. From this, You extrapolated something that was'nt there. Well, you and others. This is what I mean by everything else I responded with to all the other posts tryin g to make me fit into their mold.
Don't make assumptions about other peoples lives. Don't offer things that you neither have, or that others don't need or want. Love people instead of making them feel defensive about themselves.

God lives in all of us, whether or not we acknowledge that. When you recognize who and what God is, then you'll understand what I'm talking about.

Peace.

 

[apl]

Hey, Mad, I'm sorry about not being clear about something. My posts were intended as a general discussion about Christianity, especially the role of the Christian in a lost world, and were not intended to be about MadMinute specifcially. Looking back I could see why you would read them as being personally addressed to you. My apologies.

Love people instead of making them feel defensive about themselves.

Can you help me understand this? What is it about my posts specifically that would put someone on the defensive?

 

[MadMinute]

I'll try to answer both questions at once so you can see what I mean, apl.

You have labeled the world "lost". You label others "sinner". This implies that you are somehow more enlightened and on some higher spiritual plane than everyone else. That mentality, meaning labeling others who are not like you, is in itself offensive and arrogant. You are not God, or Jesus, or even Paul for that matter.

You are very tiny part of your so called "lost" world. You live in it and contribute to it's problems just like everyone else. You are in no place to make such sweeping statements.

This world was created by someone else. That someone else did'nt leave you in charge of recreating it in your image.

I have, in my own life, tried to look past myself and see others where they are. Not that I'm anymore successful than anyone else, but my experiences have led me to the conclusion that most people have a concept of God and the way he(?) relates to this world. And most people, even if they don't label things like you do, are doing what they can to relate to God in their own way, just like you are.

So, to say to someone "you are a sinner and are lost because you have'nt used my formula for getting close to God" is not doing anyone any good. This is what makes people defensive and makes you seem arrogant and elitist.

Let people see what your values are instead of browbeating them. Instead of telling them they're wrong for not thinking like you, just do what you think is right, and let others see this as an example.

Religion has killed more people on this planet than anything else. The "holier than thou" attitude is one of the underlying causes of this. That and greed. Muslim kills Jew, pagan kills christian, and on and on. The dogma has to stop. We are all people before anything. Children of God. All of us, whether muslim or jew or christian or begger or thief, it makes no difference. We were put here for God's pleasure. Not our own. We can continue to isolate and point fingers at everyone outside of our group, or we can get along and make this a real garden of Eden, like it was before our humanity trashed it.

Jesus was "the Prince of Peace", and not the prince of condemnation. He strived for unity and understanding.

I hope this clarifies some of what I've been saying.

Peace.

 

[mrx]

All of us, whether muslim or jew or christian or begger or thief, it makes no difference.

I've been fighting an inner battle regarding this thread, but the above quote provided a 'handle.'

At some point between the start of the intifada and 9/11 CNN had a rountable discussion with a rabbi, a Muslim religious leader, and a fundementalist Christian minister regarding the deteriorating state of affairs in the Middle East and how the world's religions could, or should, work together (or whatever the specifc 'theme' was.) As the discussion started the rabbi and Muslim spoke of tolerance, understanding, and reaching out. When it came around to the minister he, without hesitation or double talk, essentially said that none of what the others were saying was of any relevance since he gathered they had not accepted Jesus Christ and their personal savior, and hence were going to hell together. Having grown accustomed to the typical scripted "why can't we be friends" rhetoric on such broadcasts, I found his stance to be shocking, and the impression stayed with me for quite some time how his conviction and message made the other two gentlemen (and what they represented) seem very cheap and irrelevant.

I also, however, kept struggling with the same concerns as MadMinute. My search isn't complete, but I share what I believe to be his unease with reducing this all to some select lines from John.

My question to you devotees of Pauline Theology is how you justify picking and choosing what to take literally and what to dismiss as quaint? For example, how can you allow women to speak in church, yet still throw figurative stones at homosexuals?

 

[faderbug]

and exactly where do the guitars come in to this story?

 

[MadMinute]

MRX....a hearty well done.

I've asked these same exact questions myself.
Some answers i get are that cultural differences exist between then and now. This is very true.

But I ask why are those same reasonings not applied to where we are today in the U.S. and the world?

To me, the guy that said the muslim and the jew were going to hell is a complete jackass, and has no business spewing hatred from a pulpit. And from my experience, this is a pervasive attitude that christians have. Just as Bush quoted..."you are either for me or against me". Nevermind that the proper context had been removed from Bush's use of that statement. Such nuances are lost on him, as they are on alot of people who claim to be christian.

I think a big problem stems from people not educating themselves. Most don't have time to truly study what was going on in the bible, and the times in which it was written, and the errors in translation. So they lose the real plot somehwhere along the way. They get some of it, but the real message is lost. People are more into being told what to think, because it's easier and more convenient. Studying to show yourself approved is difficult and time consuming, kinda like learning to play guitar well.

Jesus' message is one of love and peace. It's about seeing God in everyone and everything.It's about taking care of each other, and not just those who you like, or are your freinds. It's like whattaguy said, cutting to the heart. Stepping outside of your box and dealing with those who are unacceptable in society's eyes, like homeless people, prostitutes, gays, and even those who practice a religion you don't happen to claim. It's all about getting past yourself, dying to the flesh, as it were, and letting love for man, who God dwells in, come to the fore. If you can do that, peace will result. Keep the petty differences as part of your dogma, and we will continue to have what we have now, which is war, death, destruction, hatred and fear.

So you're right MRX, it's not about a few bullet points taken out of context from the rest of the manuscript. It's about the bigger picture, and what we can contribute to making that picture more pleasant for those that come after us. If you read the book, you'll find that this is exactly what Jesus did.

Again, I hope this helps.
Peace.

 

[mrx]

I think a big problem stems from people not educating themselves. Most don't have time to truly study what was going on in the bible, and the times in which it was written, and the errors in translation. So they lose the real plot somehwhere along the way. They get some of it, but the real message is lost. People are more into being told what to think, because it's easier and more convenient. Studying to show yourself approved is difficult and time consuming, kinda like learning to play guitar well.

That is exactly the issue. Modern research does nothing but reinforce the fact that 'something' extraordinary happened 2000 years ago, but it also makes it impossible to justify Paul's prejudices as the 'word of God', and removes the X-Files-esque appeal from Revelation. Of course for many that just takes the fun out of it...

 

[mrx]

Got side tracked - I was going to at least add to the guitar aspect of this thread. Not much, but going to sunrise Easter services where they'd sing 'Morning Has Broken' and play guitars was a huge influence on getting serious about playing guitar and piano. Always wanted to join them...

 

[MadMinute]

MRX...
The problem is that you have a book, or in this case a collection of books, written by people. While christians say the bible is divinely inspired, and that may well be true, it was still written by men. And so, in this collection, you have the biases and prejudices of those people that comes through in the writing. Alot of this has to do with the times and circumstances in which these people lived.

Additionally, what you read is a translation. This also has it's problems. Not all words or ideas translate from one language to the next, and so the translator injects his own philosophies and preconceptions into those translations. So you end up with many inconsistencies from what was originally written. Try translating Mandarin Chinese into english. Some things just won't go.

Also, some of those books contain stories that happened years before they were written down. Memories change over time. Like I say about my motorcycle racing when I was a kid...."the older i get, the faster I was".

Then theres the debate over whether or not certain books were even authored by the people they were supposed to be authored by. I don't have full details on this issue, but I will investigate it further.

At the end, you have more people putting their spin on what is being said in these books. Their spin, like those before them, comes from their own experiences and cultural upbringing. So then they interpret things the way they know how, or were taught.

What exacerbates the problems is when people teach absolutism, as in there is only one way to worship God, or one way to pray to him(?). This is ridiculous. If this were true, then as you stated earlier, women would not speak in church, and they would sit away from the men, and they would wear burqhas so as to keep their heads covered, etc.

You also raised the eschatological question. If you read the whole title of the last book, it says "The Revelation Of Jesus the Christ" and not the revelation of some possible "endtime" prophecy or whatever. And certainly not just "Revelations".
This is but one more example of people disregarding parts of what was written to satisfy some need that they have. It takes away from the big picture when you do things like this, and leads to misunderstanding and confusion.

Interpret all this as you wish, but don't take it as gospel. Use your mind more than you use your eyes, and you'll see much clearer.

Peace, man.

 

[danobi]

Mad, I don't think that either apl or anyone here were making sweeping statements or being judgemental, that i've noticed, anyways. if anyone was, it was probably me. So I apologize to you if i have, and to anyone else on HR bbs also. i am only human and i can get defensive myself sometimes, and because of that i could be the biggest hypocrite on the face of the planet, but i am trying to be humble and anything but a hypocrite... and I'll accept a rebuke if i'm not.
christians were commanded, by God, to preach the gospel and inform others what God requires of them. "Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone, everywhere."
the words used there, 'everyone' and 'everywhere' include me, you, and everyone else on the planet.

a few posts back, you said:
----
So, to say to someone "you are a sinner and are lost because you haven't used my formula for getting close to God" is not doing anyone any good. This is what makes people defensive and makes you seem arrogant and elitist.
----

well, i think apl put it best when he stated:
---
I am under obligation, in the lovingest way possible, in the humblest way possible, in the most "you seem like a really nice guy, much better than I" way, to make you aware of your cosmic situation. After that, it's all up to you. And no matter what you do with it, I will never, ever, ever, think of myself as better than you.
---

that is exactly the way that Christ would have us do it. Even if someone is humble, that person could still come across as anything but. There are so many things a person has to be careful of when discussing such a matter as God or "religion", that sometimes it doesn't come out just right. A christian who is filled with the precious Holy Spirit has a burning desire to make known the path of salvation to others. God is God and He never changes. Christ is the only way to salvation and everyone has to face Him when they die. One may choose to believe whatever he wants, but that person should be aware of the aftershocks of his choices.
again mad, i sincerely apologize if I judged you or came across as an 'elitist'. I really didn't mean to. Jesus is the prince of peace, but informing a person of the 'formula' to salvation was intended to bring peace. People who are offended by such info is usually the fault of the person providing it, or certain circumstances or history in the receiver's life.

also, the guy that said the muslim or jew(someone who tries his best to follow the Law, but can't because it's not humanly possible) is going to hell is Christ, and he is anything but a jackass. but it doesn't have to be that way. God loves that person as much as any other person on the planet. Jesus will still love a person as He casts them into the lake of fire. He will not be happy to do so, and He'll probably be crying when He says to them "I never knew you". A person who does not choose Christ as His savior and accepts His death as a payment for said person's sins is rejecting Christ. As heavy as that statement is, one can only be so politically correct. I'm sorry if the word of God offends someone, but that someone needs to take that up with God.

this was not a personal attack on you, mad, and i apologize if it came accross like that. as apl put it, this is meant to be a general discussion.
later.

-dan

 

[apl]

Hey, MadMinute. I appreciate you taking time to reply. Please let me take the liberty of rearranging your resonse to better reply. From your other posts, it seems you see the Bible as somewhat reliable, so I will try to stick to themes that are broadly laid out in scripture, so that we don't have to get into the whole, "Does it really mean that?" thing.

1. You have labeled the world "lost". You label others "sinner". This implies that you are somehow more enlightened and on some higher spiritual plane than everyone else....So, to say to someone "you are a sinner and are lost because you have'nt used my formula for getting close to God" is not doing anyone any good. Let people see what your values are instead of browbeating them. Instead of telling them they're wrong for not thinking like you, just do what you think is right, and let others see this as an example.

2. This world was created by someone else. That someone else did'nt leave you in charge of recreating it in your image.

3. I have, in my own life, tried to look past myself and see others where they are.

4. Religion has killed more people on this planet than anything else.

1. Jesus came to seek and save the lost (His words). Who are they? How do they become found and saved? You have consistently said I come across as arrogant. I keep trying to say I'm nobody. I am trying to be an example of a good person, but I've got a long way to go.

2. I agree. I am nobody.

3. Me, too. And when I see someone in bad situation I want to help them only to the point at which they will allow me to.

4. What religion was Hitler? Stalin? The Khomer Rouge? Slob Milosovich?

You seem to be convinced that it is not possible that there is a specific God Who has specific instructions about what mankind should do. By specific, I mean beyond "love everybody and be nice." Is this accurate?

I'd like to ask you the following; the questions are about possibilities. Is it possible that all of mankind is doomed? Is it possible that there is a way out? I'm not asking whether or not you think those propositions are true, but whether you think they are possible.

Now, you're pretty clear about letting people believe whatever they want. If I believe that mankind is doomed and that there is a way out, and did nothing about others, what kind of guy would I be?

Do you believe there is one God who created everything? Do you believe Jesus was God Himself living as a human being? What do you believe was the point of His death and resurection?

Again, I appreciate your response (and mrx, too).

I think about this stuff a lot when I play guitar in church, you know.

 

[MadMinute]

Danobi...
While you may read about going around proclaiming the good news, I've never read anything that instructs you to tell others what God requires of them. Never once have I read such a statement outside of fundamentalist diatribe.

The guy that made the remark MRX quoted was hardly Jesus. It was one more finger pointing asshole of a christian minister who feels his divine right is to subjugate and denigrate those who don't see things his way.

I still want to know how it is, outside of your emotion, that you are convinced that nobody who practices any religion besides yours is wrong.
This is exactly what I mean when I say you come off as arrogant regardless of your supposed humility. The mere fact that you state unequivocally that your message is the only right one is what makes people think what I do about you and the majority of fundamentalist christians.

Think for just one moment that fundamentalist muslims have the same attitude that you do. They say the same things about Islam, that it is the only true religion and the only way to God. What do you say to them?

I know what you'll say to them. You'll explain how you know in your heart of hearts, that you've had some experience with God, and that the holy spirit entered into you and changed you, and you've had some kind of revelation and know the bible to be true in it's entirety. You'll say how you've seen this manifest in some way in your life, how you are a changed person and you never want to go back to what you once were.

And the muslim will say the exact same things back to you.

So tell me danobi, which one of you is right? Who had a fake emotion based experience and who had a deep spiritual awakening?

My hope is that both of you did. Theres room for more than just you here.




Apl....
You must not give much thought to what I wwrote earlier about culture and translation of documents and whatnot. Thats cool. But what I said earlier would answer some, if not most, of your questions and would rebut some of the other things you mentioned. The comments made to danobi would also apply to your comments.

Hitler was a believer in many things. He believed in God and divine providence. He also believed in other systems like astrology. I think Nancy Reagan shared some beliefs with him.
Stalin I can't answer. I would probably guess he was an atheist.
Khmer Rouge operate in largely Buddhist areas, so it seems logocal that there would be some of that influence in their people.
Slabodan Milosevich I can't say either. His religion was probably greed.

To answer your question about possibilities, yes I think anything is possible, though I can't say what will or will not happen in the future anymore than you can.

Do I believe in one creator God? Not necessarily. Maybe he is actually a she, and maybe there is more than one. I don't know. I believe in something other than man being god, but I believe that spirit of god dwells within man.

I don't know about Jesus being God in the flesh. I do know he had some really intelligent things to say that transcend anyones personal beliefs. Alot of what he said was just plain truth. But then, so is alot of Zen that I've read, and the Koran contains alot too. Which one is absolutely correct?
Ask two people and you'll get three answers. I prefer to take something from all of them, because they are all useful and beneficial.

Those are my thoughts.

Peace.

 

[a12stringer]

Madminute:
I have to ask when did God cease to exist and appoint you the Master of the Universe? I ask this because your denigration of Bible-believing Christians is long on bigoted generalities because of whatever imagined abuse you received and not once is there a specific legitimate criticism based in fact.

You are being, at the least, logically inconsistent, and, at worst, hypocritically dishonest because you complain about how judgmental you believe fundamentalist Christians are in your estimation--but in every criticism you level, you are being very judgmental yourself.

You cast judgment on the Bible as being full of errors based on the biases of men--yet not once have you cited one specific instance of error or bias. Have you ever heard of Aristotle's dictum? It states: "The benefit of the doubt is to be granted to the document itself and not arrogated by the critic to himself."

Quite frankly, when I read of such scholars as Gleason Archer, Norman Geisler, and Bruce Metzger, who have staked their lives and reputations on the absolute inerrancy and trustworthiness of the Bible, I have to ask what your qualifications are. Have you studied the original languages? If so, to what extent? What other training do you have in the fields of archaeology and anthropology? What about epistemology? In other words, why should we accept your prejudices as fact?

All in all, your comments on the nature of Scripture and the Person of Jesus Christ have the appearance of simply parroting the pseudo-scholars at the Jesus Seminar. They display no real first hand research.

 

[jeffrydada]

I attend a Bible college and play on 2 worship teams. It's a rotational thing I get in about 3-4 services a month. I play bass. the school has a double bass I use on occasion, but I mainly use my Rick or my Jazz bass through Dean Markley Power amps and Peavey cabs. The Church we use has a sweet mackie board with crown amps and some outboard effects processors. Being a college worship team can be very creative because our audience is young, (i'm 42 BTW) we've had some cool worships with Rock, ska and jazz styles. The funest thing for me is that I record my own stuff and have access to some great young talent.
in His grip
J.

 

[danobi]

well, i'm going on a hiatus. if any of you want to continue this then PM me, i don't mind. But i didn't come here to dispute what the best version of God is (...). I've become pretty erked and i may've erked others (although not on purpose). also, i don't care if erked isn't a word. i'm using it anyways. Seriously though, if anyone is willing to listen to what i have to say then feel free to PM me. I think everyone here are rock solid in their beliefs. To anyone who isn't, or who just wants some answers, i'm all earz.

i came here to find some christian rockers and got sucked into a big something else entirely.
later.

this was not intended to sound as dramatic as it does, by the way.

-dan

 

[MadMinute]

a12stringer...
You must not read well, or your ability to comprehend is lacking.
Where did I say to anyone here that they had to belive like I do?
Please point out and quote where I did.
I think if you actually READ what I've said, then you'd find it abundantly clear that I've stated thatpeople have every right to believe as they wish. I am master of nobody. I have no desire to be. I merely want to be left alone to form my own decisions. I have in no way said my views are the only views that matter. Quite the opposite actually.

If you go back to my original comment, I merely stated my reasons for not playing in church after having done so for years. After that, people called my beliefs into question. I was made defensive by the assertations of others, and therefore I defended my views. If this offends you, tough shit.

So by citing "Aristotle's Dictum" you claim anyone can write whatever they please and it must be given respect and must not be criticized?

As for the scholars you mention, they are also free to believe as they wish. That does'nt mean I have to follow them. If you decide to follow, thats up to you. Do as you see fit. Can I be any clearer to you?

Don't dictate to me what I should think, how I should act, what I should look like or what language to speak. Is that also clear enough? If not, please explain what you don't understand.

Whether or not my views are something you agree with is irrelevant to me. It makes absolutely no impact on my life. I will still believe as I do. And I'm quite sure you will do the same.

At this point I really don't care if you're offended. I offered you no arguement. You offered me one. I gave one back. I think we're even.

 

[a12stringer]

madminute,
In logic, your responses are referred to politely as "begging the question."
In forensics, it's called an "ad hominem" argument. Your arguments are lacking intellectual or rational bases, so you attack with name calling and vilification.
I did not tell you what you have to believe. Yes, people have a right to believe whatever they wish. But having the right to believe anything does not mean that all beliefs are equally or even necessarily valid or true. You have obviously throughout all your posts, missed that crucial distinction.

I asked you what qualifications you have that we should accept your opinions as valid. You never answered that question and therefore any logical person would have to dismiss your rantings as invalid.

 

[mrx]

Jesus will still love a person as He casts them into the lake of fire.

Chapter, verse?