Any analog boards with phase reverse?

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nate_dennis

nate_dennis

Well-known member
Hey guys,
I'm getting super jazzed about recording again. I dont' know what it is, but I've got the bug!!! I'm planning on buying some "new" gear come tax time and have a question . . .

Do any of the analog boards from back in the day have phase reverse funtions? If so, how much do these cost as opposed to some of the "lesser" consoles? Also, if they don't, how would one go about using a blumlein array in the analog world?

Thanks so much for all you guys do to help people like me!

cheers
 
nate_dennis said:
Hey guys,
I'm getting super jazzed about recording again. I dont' know what it is, but I've got the bug!!! I'm planning on buying some "new" gear come tax time and have a question . . .

Do any of the analog boards from back in the day have phase reverse funtions? If so, how much do these cost as opposed to some of the "lesser" consoles? Also, if they don't, how would one go about using a blumlein array in the analog world?

Thanks so much for all you guys do to help people like me!

cheers
Click to expand...

My Yamaha PM 1800 has phase reverse. And works well in the studio. Not to mention the 24 great channel stripes connected to 24 great preamps.
But most all good outboard mic preamps do as well, maybe this is the route you should be taking, get three or four different ones for different flavors. ;)







:cool:
 
Typically you don't start seeing phase reverse on a channel strip until you get into the bigger boards...The Tascam M-500 mixers have it...the M-3x00 series too...of course the M-600...M-2500 no, M-2600 I don't know.

But if you're wanting to setup a Blumlein pair, what do you need the phase reverse for?
 
sweetbeats said:
But if you're wanting to setup a Blumlein pair, what do you need the phase reverse for?
Click to expand...

To decode the MS signal. I didn't finish it, but I was watching a video that said you could do it with a mixer if it had phase reverse. But I'm not super set on having this capability. Just curious how people do/did MS recording on analog gear.
 
Switch the Pin 2 and Pin 3 wires of the line feeding the channel you want to phase reverse. You can just make a "phase reverse" cable and use it when needed.
 
miroslav said:
Switch the Pin 2 and Pin 3 wires of the line feeding the channel you want to phase reverse. You can just make a "phase reverse" cable and use it when needed.
Click to expand...

hmmmmm, cool. Thanks!:D
 
Nate, Blumlein Pair and M+S are not the same thing...

A Blumlein Pair uses two figure-8 mics 90 degrees concident and two mic pres, M+S uses a cardioid or super-cardioid and a figure-8 and uses three channels if you're keeping it all analog. If you're going to a DAW straight off the mixer you only need two mic pres and then you can split the figure-8 into two channels and reverse the phase on one of the pair in the DAW.

If I were you I'd get a bead on a mixer and then ask how you would accomplish the M+S if you are tracking to analog or want to be able to monitor the array in analog. It gets tricky with phantom power and such. Here are a couple examples of how I've gotten around this:

  1. Problem: no phase reverse on the mixer or pre-fade pre-eq access (like no insert...you can use this in the next example if you have it...just put a pin in this one for a moment). Let's assume both mics are condenser mics and need phantom power. The "M" mic (the cardioid or super-cardioid) goes straight on into a channel through the mic pre, and let's assume the mixer has phantom power...no fuss. The "S" mic (the figure-8) will need an external phantom power source. I have a nice Stewart Audio PM-1. So the mic goes to the phantom supply and then I made a custom Y cable to come out of the phantom supply to split the figure-8 mic, but pins 2 and 3 are reversed on one of the outputs like miroslav was talking about. The "M" mic is panned center, the "S" mic channels are panned hard R and hard L. All three channels bussed to the same pair of groups. Done.
  2. Problem: no phase reverse on the mixer (but the mixer DOES have an INSERT jack or like on many of the older Tascam mixers separate "ACCESS SEND RCV" jacks). Here again we are assuming the mixer has phantom power. As with example #1 the "M" mic is no fuss. The "S" mic connects to a channel and gets its phantom power. Set the TRIM and then (in the case of the older Tascam mixer) connect a cable from the ACCESS SEND jack of that channel to the LINE IN of an adjacent channel, but reverse the "+" and "-" terminals at one end the cable. That accomplishes your phase reversal and your split. Now you just source the LINE input on the adjacent channel and you've got your "S" mic split into two channels that are phase opposite. If you are working with a mixer that has unbalanced TRS INSERT jacks then you'll just need a custom cable that has a TRS plug on one end and a TS plug at the other (assuming the mixer has TS jacks for the LINE inputs...it would be a TRS to RCA cable if the LINE inputs are RCA). You'll have to strap the Tip and Ring together of the TRS plug (otherwise it'll break the signal coming into that channel...this is how you, in general, use TRS INSERT jacks as pre-eq pre-fade direct outs...strapping the Tip and Ring sends the signal and returns it simultaneously which is what you want...you just want to tap the signal off of that channel to which the "S" mic is connected...), and then as with above you need to reverse the "+" and "-" terminals at the other end...the strapped Tip/Ring of the TRS plug will connect to the Shield of the TS plug, and the Shield of the TRS plug will connect to the Tip of the TS plug (obviously substitute "RCA" for "TS" if the LINE inputs are on RCA jacks).

Note that whether you are splitting the "S" mic before the mixer or splitting it after it is preamped at the mixer you'll want to balance the level of the two "S" channels...like you set the TRIM on the primary channel and then using test tone and the mixer's meters to set the TRIM to be the same on the second channel.

So you can see there are many ways to accomplish this and it really depends on the mixer, and since you don't generally see phase reverse on smaller mixers that's why I'm advising you get a bead on a mixer first and then come here for help to figure out how you could do the M+S thing.

BTW, I really like M+S mic'ing. I use two Studio Projects B3 mics (which are nice budget multi-pattern LDC's) and have gotten some great results.
 
technoplayer said:
Big boards?

The little Tascam MX80 8 channel rack mixer has phase reverse on each channel
Click to expand...

oooooo shame on me...and I even HAVE one of those...but that gets to what miroslav was suggesting. But good call, Techno...

Yeah the MX-80 is pretty cool.

But still, in the case of M+S mic'ing you'd need to get, at the very least, an XLR Y cable, and I'm not sure how that would work for phantom powering.

Does anybody know what happens if you split a mic cable with a Y and have it connected to two mic amps how the phantom powering works? Do you just turn on phantom power on one of the channels?
 
My M3700 doesn't have channel polarity flips. I had an Allen & Heath that had 'em and I do miss having that function, but most of my outboard pres have 'em so I try to get it right on the way in. For mixing, I do have some cheap reversed-polarity XLR adapters which I put inline between patches when I want to play with it, would be easier to have a button on the channels again, though! Some consoles have it, some don't; the more pro (vs. semi-pro) the board is, the more likely.
 
braink thanks for the info...I appreciate being corrected as I assumed the M-3x00 boards had a phase flip function! :eek:

I'm kind of surprised about that...though I've used phase more in FOH applications and the Tascam boards have a recording lean to them...not that they don't work in FOH applications but they do better in recording apps than some other mixers.

Hm!

Well now I've learned something today. :)
 
sweetbeats said:
braink thanks for the info...I appreciate being corrected as I assumed the M-3x00 boards had a phase flip function! :eek:

I'm kind of surprised about that...though I've used phase more in FOH applications and the Tascam boards have a recording lean to them...not that they don't work in FOH applications but they do better in recording apps than some other mixers.

Hm!

Well now I've learned something today. :)
Click to expand...

Yeah, that Allen&Heath leaned more to live sound, so there you have it!

The M3700 does have Flip switches toward the top of the channels, but that flips the monitors and channel faders if I recall correctly (I only use the console for line mixing and never run short on channels, so I never use the monitors).
 
briank said:
The M3700 does have Flip switches toward the top of the channels, but that flips the monitors and channel faders if I recall correctly (I only use the console for line mixing and never run short on channels, so I never use the monitors).
Click to expand...

That's correct...the FLIP switches just source the tape return to the strip for mixdown.
 
My Amek TAC Scorpion has phase reverse. You can find these for less than $1500. Mine is big (24 x 16) but there is a 16 x 8 version. I love mine. Gonna post soon about some mods I just had done to it.
 

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