W
Wallycleaver
New member
It was a joke zip.
sonusman
Banned
Hey guys, don't argue. Perfection is a MUST now!!!
AutoTune away folks! Program those drum machines. Use those POD's. The normal joe on the street doesn't care right? It is JUST a song and a performance. No need to get all huffy about sincerity and the asthetics of the audio. Some guy is just going to encode it at 96kbs and throw it on his Rio player anyway to listen to while on the bus going to his band teller job.
I have been convicted in the past on this BBS by many for suggesting approaches to recording that are not in line with "home recording". My suggestions were too "professional" for the average "home recordist". Yet, look at these guys now, asking away about how to make their recordings sound like the big boys! Yes, I realize that mostly that was pertaining to gear choice, etc......
I don't consider AutoTune to be in line with the average joe on here doing a home "demo". I see AutoTune as being a very expensive toy that is not needed in this case. I mean, who is really going to be listening to your product? Why are some flat/sharp vocals that big of a deal? I thought the whole idea of this home recording boom was to have some fun and get your ideas on some media so you can listen to it. Why is it all of a sudden that people want their vocals perfectly in pitch, and their CDR masters as loud as the big boy recordings? That sound pretty serious to me!!! That doesn't sound like a guy who is looking to have a decent home demo. That sounds like there is a NEED for it to be top notch!
Hypocrisy?
Why does everything need to be fixed? Why does everything need to sound as good as the CD off the music store shelf? Why does everything have to sound JUST LIKE something else you hear? Why why why!!!!
I tell ya why. This is gonna hurt.
Most of you have about as much creativity in music as a Xerox machine! So, barring having anything unique to say with your songs, you are looking to "blend it in" with current music. You are trying to obviously do something you rightfully probably shouldn't, and are looking for ways to hide that fact.
It is respecting music that I am talking about. Keeping a level of uniqueness that is all of your own. If your vocals suck, suck with some PRIDE!!! Suck with sincerity! Suck just to suck!!! Dylan has been doing it for years. Can you imagine AutoTuning his voice?
My experience has been that vocalist with really bad pitch have many other problems in their performances that are still going to be ever present after "fixing" the pitch. Horrible tone (no fix for that yet), sloppy diction (I have seen that sort of fixed with PT), and phrasing that is usually pretty awkward within the song. I have heard many vocalist who have addressed these issues who still had pretty poor pitch who could sell a product! If the pitch is STILL a deterrent to enjoying the song, well, get a damn singer with better pitch to perform it for you!!! If the words, phrasing, diction, and melody line are that good, you will find MANY competent singers willing to step in and perform. Good singers are always looking for a good song to sing.
AutoTune is EVIL!!! It takes away the last shred of honesty about singing. Again, I will make a slight concession in it's use for fixing a note here and there, but I suspect that many are not using it in this manner. Most are trying to bring a majority of the singing into something that resembles decent pitch, and in that case, that person does not belong behind the mic. Get a REAL singer or practice!
Ed
AutoTune away folks! Program those drum machines. Use those POD's. The normal joe on the street doesn't care right? It is JUST a song and a performance. No need to get all huffy about sincerity and the asthetics of the audio. Some guy is just going to encode it at 96kbs and throw it on his Rio player anyway to listen to while on the bus going to his band teller job.
I have been convicted in the past on this BBS by many for suggesting approaches to recording that are not in line with "home recording". My suggestions were too "professional" for the average "home recordist". Yet, look at these guys now, asking away about how to make their recordings sound like the big boys! Yes, I realize that mostly that was pertaining to gear choice, etc......
I don't consider AutoTune to be in line with the average joe on here doing a home "demo". I see AutoTune as being a very expensive toy that is not needed in this case. I mean, who is really going to be listening to your product? Why are some flat/sharp vocals that big of a deal? I thought the whole idea of this home recording boom was to have some fun and get your ideas on some media so you can listen to it. Why is it all of a sudden that people want their vocals perfectly in pitch, and their CDR masters as loud as the big boy recordings? That sound pretty serious to me!!! That doesn't sound like a guy who is looking to have a decent home demo. That sounds like there is a NEED for it to be top notch!
Hypocrisy?
Why does everything need to be fixed? Why does everything need to sound as good as the CD off the music store shelf? Why does everything have to sound JUST LIKE something else you hear? Why why why!!!!
I tell ya why. This is gonna hurt.
Most of you have about as much creativity in music as a Xerox machine! So, barring having anything unique to say with your songs, you are looking to "blend it in" with current music. You are trying to obviously do something you rightfully probably shouldn't, and are looking for ways to hide that fact.
It is respecting music that I am talking about. Keeping a level of uniqueness that is all of your own. If your vocals suck, suck with some PRIDE!!! Suck with sincerity! Suck just to suck!!! Dylan has been doing it for years. Can you imagine AutoTuning his voice?
My experience has been that vocalist with really bad pitch have many other problems in their performances that are still going to be ever present after "fixing" the pitch. Horrible tone (no fix for that yet), sloppy diction (I have seen that sort of fixed with PT), and phrasing that is usually pretty awkward within the song. I have heard many vocalist who have addressed these issues who still had pretty poor pitch who could sell a product! If the pitch is STILL a deterrent to enjoying the song, well, get a damn singer with better pitch to perform it for you!!! If the words, phrasing, diction, and melody line are that good, you will find MANY competent singers willing to step in and perform. Good singers are always looking for a good song to sing.
AutoTune is EVIL!!! It takes away the last shred of honesty about singing. Again, I will make a slight concession in it's use for fixing a note here and there, but I suspect that many are not using it in this manner. Most are trying to bring a majority of the singing into something that resembles decent pitch, and in that case, that person does not belong behind the mic. Get a REAL singer or practice!
Ed
sjoko2
New member
Here we go... autotune is part of most studio's tool kit. personally, I use it a lot. But that is perhaps because I do a lot of arrangements and writing as well, so rather than play a part again, I might just shift a note here and there.
Also, as I said before, when I'm tracking and someone drops a killer performance, but it has a couple of pich errors somewhere, I am NOT going to scrap that performane, because you can bet your nellie its not going to be repeated. This goes for every kind of performance, be it bass, guitar, strings, keys, I have even tuned toms up or down, which greatly improved the whole feel of the track concerned.
Now vocals..... that's another matter. Last year I turned down engineering a CD that would have made me a fortune. Why? Because previously I spend a loooooooooooong time tuning vocals for this artist, which I think is the most non-creative pain in the ass job I've done in a studio. No more!! If I had done it (it would have sounded a whole friggin lot better), looking at the sales figures my one little point would have earned me in the 6 figures. As I'm blessed with ears that allow me to hear when something is not perfect - to much not perfect makes my teeth crack, it does something to my head, I will start barking at people, and if someone disturbs me I'm likely to make them cry, so never again!
Unfortunately there are many artists about who, basically, are not very good. Their singing ability and tone might be really great, but they cannot hold a note. To me, they are not great singers. Live, they fall through the basket, you couldn't pay me anything to go to one of their gigs, and if they are live on TV I go "click" within a second of the first wrong note. If you hear these once live, you know their CD's are autotune specials. Some examples? I'll only mention ones that won't sue me.
Red Hot Chilly Peppers - so bad its almost unbelieveable. Jill Scott - hailed as a great singer, horrible! Seal - Mr. Autotune himself, hail Trevor! Madonna - but she makes up for it by being very clever live, thanks to her brilliant backing singers. Monica - shivers!
And then there are singers who do sing out of tune a lot, but it does not make you cringe, its part of their charm / charisma, call it what you like. Sade is a prime example, Mary J. another one (altough, she has her totally off days! But she can SING), John Lennon was another one, as was Frank Sinatra.
If you would take any of those and autotune their performances, it would remove the character altogether.
In all my time recording I have only met 2 "perfect" singers (non-classical that is), which is unique, like a guitarplayer who's instrument is always in tune and who never makes a mistake. Both these singers have the same characteristics, which is kind of strange. Both have perfect memories, for everything, but especially music. Play them a 10 part vocal harmony, they could listen to it once and re-create it perfectly, be it just after, or a month later. They are also both African, and I don't think that's a coincidence either.
After all that, autotune is just a tool, it makes some things sound better, it screws other things up, and it allows people who cannot sing to pretend they can.
So.... its very much like a printer. A tool you use a lot, widely available, and sometimes used for forgery.
Also, as I said before, when I'm tracking and someone drops a killer performance, but it has a couple of pich errors somewhere, I am NOT going to scrap that performane, because you can bet your nellie its not going to be repeated. This goes for every kind of performance, be it bass, guitar, strings, keys, I have even tuned toms up or down, which greatly improved the whole feel of the track concerned.
Now vocals..... that's another matter. Last year I turned down engineering a CD that would have made me a fortune. Why? Because previously I spend a loooooooooooong time tuning vocals for this artist, which I think is the most non-creative pain in the ass job I've done in a studio. No more!! If I had done it (it would have sounded a whole friggin lot better), looking at the sales figures my one little point would have earned me in the 6 figures. As I'm blessed with ears that allow me to hear when something is not perfect - to much not perfect makes my teeth crack, it does something to my head, I will start barking at people, and if someone disturbs me I'm likely to make them cry, so never again!
Unfortunately there are many artists about who, basically, are not very good. Their singing ability and tone might be really great, but they cannot hold a note. To me, they are not great singers. Live, they fall through the basket, you couldn't pay me anything to go to one of their gigs, and if they are live on TV I go "click" within a second of the first wrong note. If you hear these once live, you know their CD's are autotune specials. Some examples? I'll only mention ones that won't sue me.
Red Hot Chilly Peppers - so bad its almost unbelieveable. Jill Scott - hailed as a great singer, horrible! Seal - Mr. Autotune himself, hail Trevor! Madonna - but she makes up for it by being very clever live, thanks to her brilliant backing singers. Monica - shivers!
And then there are singers who do sing out of tune a lot, but it does not make you cringe, its part of their charm / charisma, call it what you like. Sade is a prime example, Mary J. another one (altough, she has her totally off days! But she can SING), John Lennon was another one, as was Frank Sinatra.
If you would take any of those and autotune their performances, it would remove the character altogether.
In all my time recording I have only met 2 "perfect" singers (non-classical that is), which is unique, like a guitarplayer who's instrument is always in tune and who never makes a mistake. Both these singers have the same characteristics, which is kind of strange. Both have perfect memories, for everything, but especially music. Play them a 10 part vocal harmony, they could listen to it once and re-create it perfectly, be it just after, or a month later. They are also both African, and I don't think that's a coincidence either.
After all that, autotune is just a tool, it makes some things sound better, it screws other things up, and it allows people who cannot sing to pretend they can.
So.... its very much like a printer. A tool you use a lot, widely available, and sometimes used for forgery.
W
Wallycleaver
New member
Amen Brothers Sonusman and sjoko2!
zip
New member
Wallycleaver...
Yeah...I got it just as soon as I hit reply...DOH!! No one ever said I was bright...
And Ed...
Amen again...I'm bringin' out the cross fer ya Bro!
(those of you not on audioforums may not get this...)
The rest of you...If you want a good quality vocalist...call me. I'm not busy and I work cheap!
...just don't call me to lay down guitar solos...
zip >>
Yeah...I got it just as soon as I hit reply...DOH!! No one ever said I was bright...
And Ed...
Amen again...I'm bringin' out the cross fer ya Bro!
(those of you not on audioforums may not get this...)The rest of you...If you want a good quality vocalist...call me. I'm not busy and I work cheap!
...just don't call me to lay down guitar solos...
zip >>
ruebarb
New member
hmmm..I heard of this woman.
I heard Cher used it quite a bit on her album "Believe" - not that that means anything.
I'd love to hear what it does to Neil Young's vocals...I heard Art Alexakis of Everclear praising it too, I guess.
Sjoko - If that was you that engineered Cher's album, you're smart to not put her name up.. we'd razz you to hell....still, I guess we gotta do what we gotta do to put food in the kids mouths.
RB
I heard Cher used it quite a bit on her album "Believe" - not that that means anything.
I'd love to hear what it does to Neil Young's vocals...I heard Art Alexakis of Everclear praising it too, I guess.
Sjoko - If that was you that engineered Cher's album, you're smart to not put her name up.. we'd razz you to hell....still, I guess we gotta do what we gotta do to put food in the kids mouths.
RB
sjoko2
New member
In the words of Shaggy: It wasn't me!
Blue Bear Sound
New member
Re: hmmm..I heard of this woman.
Bruce
We've been thru this before -- it was NOT an Autotune used on that Cher album... the Autotune came out AFTER the production of that album occurred.... it just so happens that NOW with the Autotune, that effect is easily mimicked..... (and is seriously WAY overused...)ruebarb said:
Bruce
ruebarb
New member
unacceptable
sounds like a non-denial denial to me, heh heh.
sounds like a non-denial denial to me, heh heh.
zip
New member
"sounds like a non-denial denial to me"...
good one!
VOCAL LESSONS!!!
zip >>
good one!
VOCAL LESSONS!!!
zip >>
Queue
Active member
Neil Young popped into my mind when reading this thread. Some things shouldn't be "corrected". Anyone ever read that thing where they put the Gettysburg Address through the grammar corrector?
Oh and sonus, on your "Sucking" rant. Great stuff.
I gotta dig you up a lyric from a song one of my fav artists did. It is called "Suck or Shine" and is VERY similar to your rant.
Queue
-I mostly suck, occasionally shine, and will probably never produce a home recording comparable to 'the big boys'
Oh and sonus, on your "Sucking" rant. Great stuff.
I gotta dig you up a lyric from a song one of my fav artists did. It is called "Suck or Shine" and is VERY similar to your rant.Queue
-I mostly suck, occasionally shine, and will probably never produce a home recording comparable to 'the big boys'
six
New member
autotune is the best thing ever invented... I mean now everybody can sing in tune and call oneself a singer. Isn't that wonderful. Isn't _life_ wonderful?
serious: after the release of cher's "believe" - although it may not have been autotune - they all copied that "awesome" effect (which I hated from the very first moment on). And now it just seems to belong to a "real" production.
It's really sad that this uncle cracker dude isn't able to sing such an easy melody like "follow me" without technical help.
Some guys just shouldn't sing lead vocals but practice a bit harder. Does anybody know S Club 7 (yes, I DO watch their videos - I like the girls, ha)? Why do they let bradley sing a whole song??? Those vocals are sooooo processed - it really hurts. sounds like he's singing in a bean-can. Does he have to sing because he's... no, I won't say that.
if I sang this terrible I wouldn't do prince-moves in the video at least.
finally I have to say I really fear that in the future autotune will be used like compressors or reverb - just part of the average equipment.
btw: talking about s club 7. what "funky disco-effect" is used for that "don't stop movin' to this funky funky beat". i guess it's no talk-box and no, it's not autotune.
serious: after the release of cher's "believe" - although it may not have been autotune - they all copied that "awesome" effect (which I hated from the very first moment on). And now it just seems to belong to a "real" production.
It's really sad that this uncle cracker dude isn't able to sing such an easy melody like "follow me" without technical help.
Some guys just shouldn't sing lead vocals but practice a bit harder. Does anybody know S Club 7 (yes, I DO watch their videos - I like the girls, ha)? Why do they let bradley sing a whole song??? Those vocals are sooooo processed - it really hurts. sounds like he's singing in a bean-can. Does he have to sing because he's... no, I won't say that.
if I sang this terrible I wouldn't do prince-moves in the video at least.
finally I have to say I really fear that in the future autotune will be used like compressors or reverb - just part of the average equipment.
btw: talking about s club 7. what "funky disco-effect" is used for that "don't stop movin' to this funky funky beat". i guess it's no talk-box and no, it's not autotune.
zip
New member
"finally I have to say I really fear that in the future autotune will be used like compressors or reverb - just part of the average equipment"
That would be a really sad thing for music....
zip >>
That would be a really sad thing for music....
zip >>
crosstudio
New member
that's what the guy who built the reverb room said when reverb units came out.
speakins of autotune. i've got v1.3 and as soon as i upgraded to windows 2000, it stopped working. i've tried reinstalling it, and it still doesn't work.
speakins of autotune. i've got v1.3 and as soon as i upgraded to windows 2000, it stopped working. i've tried reinstalling it, and it still doesn't work.
G
greggybud
New member
Re: Re: hmmm..I heard of this woman.
Blue Dude:
I have the SOS article in front of me as I type these words. Mark Taylor went to great length explaining how he first used a vocorder then tried the Digitech Talker and used a Nord as a carreir signal via Cubase.
In spite of this detailed explanation, it might be a total JOKE! Really I wish Mark Taylor could be cornered for the truth.
Go here..http://linux1723.dn.net/forum/Forum4/HTML/002178.html
Apparently Mark said on a TV show Autotune was used, and the Mac version was out at the time of the recording. Some people also claim the Digitec Talker is close to impossible to use for these effects.
Maybe he just didnt want to admit something was so simple as an Autotune?
Blue Bear Sound said:
Blue Dude:
I have the SOS article in front of me as I type these words. Mark Taylor went to great length explaining how he first used a vocorder then tried the Digitech Talker and used a Nord as a carreir signal via Cubase.
In spite of this detailed explanation, it might be a total JOKE! Really I wish Mark Taylor could be cornered for the truth.
Go here..http://linux1723.dn.net/forum/Forum4/HTML/002178.html
Apparently Mark said on a TV show Autotune was used, and the Mac version was out at the time of the recording. Some people also claim the Digitec Talker is close to impossible to use for these effects.
Maybe he just didnt want to admit something was so simple as an Autotune?
sjoko2
New member
It was autotune, which was already shipping at the time of the distribution. Your last line is a 100% correct assumption.
Blue Bear Sound
New member
Hmmm... interesting... I think another of those engineering myths has been spawned!
Was that effect the result of an elaborate vocoder/synth experiment or just a simple Autotune?
Maybe he'll 'fess up on his death bed....
"Martha.... martha... come closer... (heavy breath) I... I need... to tell you something.... tell them... (wheeze) it was all a hoax.... Cher's vocal cords are so aged and brittle... (cough) her voice does that naturally.... (hack wheeze) we used the Autotune to REMOVE (choke) some of the extraneous effect! ...now I may rest................................."
Was that effect the result of an elaborate vocoder/synth experiment or just a simple Autotune?
Maybe he'll 'fess up on his death bed....
"Martha.... martha... come closer... (heavy breath) I... I need... to tell you something.... tell them... (wheeze) it was all a hoax.... Cher's vocal cords are so aged and brittle... (cough) her voice does that naturally.... (hack wheeze) we used the Autotune to REMOVE (choke) some of the extraneous effect! ...now I may rest................................."
sjoko2
New member
Its a very simple autotune thing. Get the setting right, play the vocal track, then play along with it in different keys.
barefoot
barefootsound.com
sonusman said:
I just can't let a friendly debate on this one slide.
Ed,
No question you're an excellent recording engineer, but have you had your head in the sand musically for the past ten years?
Man, the 90's is the decade when people really started to figure out how to make drum machines produce out-fucking-standingly rich and emotional music.
Aphex Twin, Banco de Gaia, Dieselboy, Fila Brazillia, Future Sound of London, Higher Intelligence Agency, LTJ Bukem, Massive Attack, The Orb, etc, etc, etc..... Haven't you heard?
Of course there's a lot of crap in any musical genre, and maybe the various forms of electronica aren't to your taste, but how can you deny the quality of music from people like this?
barefoot
crosstudio
New member
autotune 1.3 does not work in win2k
the directx version of autotune v3 will work with win2k but it won't be out for another 60-90 days.
the directx version of autotune v3 will work with win2k but it won't be out for another 60-90 days.