Another question for professional audio engineers

[halfred]

Can damper "wooshes" be completely removed from recordings of piano solos in the mastering process? If so, what effect can it have on the sound of the recording. I know it's better to deal with the problem post production. My Steinway tech guy may be able to reduce the noise, I'll find out next week. I'm certain he won't be to eliminate it. I've gone as far back as 20' from the open lid and I'm still hearing the wooshes, dammit!!! The sound is not really desirable from that distance anyway as it's in my very "padded" living room. Thanks for info in advance.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

You should take care of this problem as much as you can long before you get to the mastering stage. Having the piano tech work on it at the source as best as he can is the #1 solution; i.e. those "wooshes" should not even be there to begin with - at least not with anything close to that kind of amplitude.

Any such sound remaining after that you should try to minimize by miking technique; i.e. finding the mic location that minimizes direct pickup of the damper mechanics.

Also, is the pianist perhaps exacerbating the problem with his foot technique? Maybe he/she could do a few run-throughs on that piano to decrease the damper sound.

Beyond that, there's not a lot of great options. you really don't want to over-process the sound of a Steinway grand via EQ or NR; you usually want that kind of instrument left pretty pristine-sounding. Even if you were to try and attack the "swoosh" in post (BTW, in mixing, not mastering), there's probably not a lot you can do about it without doing a lot of collateral damage to the good part of the sound of the piano.

Best to try and get rid of the swoosh as much as possible by fixing the piano and the player, and then optimizing the miking to minimize anything that may be left.

G.

 

[halfred]

Thanks Glen. I'm the pianist. I can eliminate the "bumps" by going lighter with my foot, but not the "wooshes." I've heard that Steinways have a rep for being noisy. Guess I'll wait and see what the technician says. I've heard that in some professional recordings the noises have been left in the mix

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Guess I'll wait and see what the technician says. I've heard that in some professional recordings the noises have been left in the mix

Extraneous instrument noise is not always necessarily a terrible thing. Of course, you don't want an excessive amount, but if it's natural to the instrument even after it's been tweaked by a tech, and it's not a mis-playing issue, then leaving what's left in is probably better than trying to remove it via excessive post processing. The problem is there is no such thing as a "damper woosh removal" button or even technique that can surgically remove the unwanted noise without pretty seriously affecting the rest of the instrument's timbre.

G.

 

[Massive Master]

With Glen on this (as usual). Waiting for the mastering phase on an instrument-induced noise is like waiting to... (I really have to think of another analogy) Like waiting to shampoo your hair after you get out of the shower. (BAM! I like that one).

Anyway - Certainly see if a tech can minimize it. Mic placement and selection can give you a pretty good advantage also - I tend to use a pair of LDD's inside and a pair of SDC's outside and distant (could be "distant" 3', could be 20' - depends on what you're shooting for and time-alignment may certainly be necessary). This gives you a pretty broad spectrum of creative possibilities when you're mixing down...

But if nothing else - It's the pianist that's going to notice it more than anyone else in most cases - Just as the guitarist is driven crazy by string squeak. If the playing is solid and the performance is passionate, few are going to obsess about pedal noise. It's just not that distracting most of the time.

 

[noisewreck]

As a classical pianist, I am with Glen and John on this one. Damper whoosh is as much part of the piano timbre/sound as key-clicks are part of the sound of clarinette. We have become so accustomed to the sterile sampled piano sound that we find those noises objectionable. And we shouldn't be.

Personally, when playing I have at times intentionally induced some damper whoosh (quickly releasing the sustain pedal and depressing it again) to put the strings into vibration which then adds to the overall richness of the notes coming after it, by increasing sympathetic vibrations.

Also, as John said, most listeners will not pay attention to it, as the human ear has a tendency to filter out "unwanted" noises subconciously. You will notice them because you are too close to it (i.e. you are the performer, the recorder and you are too aware of all the warts, noises, performance issues, etc). The listener is more objective in that regard, so they will just listen to the music.

If you find the noises so objectionable, you can pretend to be Glenn Gould and hum over your playing No engineer ever removed his hums from these recordings and personally I think they add to the charm of his performances.

 

[halfred]

Extraneous instrument noise is not always necessarily a terrible thing. Of course, you don't want an excessive amount, but if it's natural to the instrument even after it's been tweaked by a tech, and it's not a mis-playing issue, then leaving what's left in is probably better than trying to remove it via excessive post processing. The problem is there is no such thing as a "damper woosh removal" button or even technique that can surgically remove the unwanted noise without pretty seriously affecting the rest of the instrument's timbre.

G.

OK thanks. Good point.

 

[halfred]

With Glen on this (as usual). Waiting for the mastering phase on an instrument-induced noise is like waiting to... (I really have to think of another analogy) Like waiting to shampoo your hair after you get out of the shower. (BAM! I like that one).

Anyway - Certainly see if a tech can minimize it. Mic placement and selection can give you a pretty good advantage also - I tend to use a pair of LDD's inside and a pair of SDC's outside and distant (could be "distant" 3', could be 20' - depends on what you're shooting for and time-alignment may certainly be necessary). This gives you a pretty broad spectrum of creative possibilities when you're mixing down...

But if nothing else - It's the pianist that's going to notice it more than anyone else in most cases - Just as the guitarist is driven crazy by string squeak. If the playing is solid and the performance is passionate, few are going to obsess about pedal noise. It's just not that distracting most of the time.

Ok, true, I'm specifically listening for it which makes it worse. Average listener probably wouldn't notice it or care. A more critical "classical" listener might take issue but that's not specifically the audience I'm playing for.

 

[halfred]

As a classical pianist, I am with Glen and John on this one. Damper whoosh is as much part of the piano timbre/sound as key-clicks are part of the sound of clarinette. We have become so accustomed to the sterile sampled piano sound that we find those noises objectionable. And we shouldn't be.

Personally, when playing I have at times intentionally induced some damper whoosh (quickly releasing the sustain pedal and depressing it again) to put the strings into vibration which then adds to the overall richness of the notes coming after it, by increasing sympathetic vibrations.

Also, as John said, most listeners will not pay attention to it, as the human ear has a tendency to filter out "unwanted" noises subconciously. You will notice them because you are too close to it (i.e. you are the performer, the recorder and you are too aware of all the warts, noises, performance issues, etc). The listener is more objective in that regard, so they will just listen to the music.

If you find the noises so objectionable, you can pretend to be Glenn Gould and hum over your playing No engineer ever removed his hums from these recordings and personally I think they add to the charm of his performances.

Ok thanks that helps a lot. BTW I do sing and grunt and make some weird sort of I don't even know how to describe, gutteral sounds that seem to follow energy patterns . Usually not that aware of it but--Yikes! I'm working on not doing it. They don't charm me when I hear them in the recordings LOL