Another newbie question...

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Phobea

Bit of a noob
Firstly Hi all, long time reader first time poster.

I'm ever-so-slowly building a home recording studio (just for vocals at the moment) and I'm somewhat stuck at one of the first hurdles.

Currently I'm using a Soundblaster Live! card (eeeek, I know) with an SM58 routed through an old DJ mixer acting as a makeshift preamp. This has worked reasonably thus far, but I'm getting to the stage where I can notice the noise now.

My next few upgrades are tricky ones, and I've narrowed them down to 2 routes (I'm on a really tight budget):

Route 1: Audiophile 2496 card >> Behringer TUBE COMPOSER T1952 >> Behringer B2 PRO >> Behringer B-CONTROL FADER BCF2000

Route 2: Behringer B-CONTROL AUDIO BCA2000.. then back to Route 1 when I can afford it.

Route 2 will offer the all-in-one cheap option for the time being, but as soon as I go back to Route 1 the interface will be practically redundant.

My main question is, if I were to purchase the Behringer B-CONTROL USB interface, am I going to need the better soundcard still, or does it have its own built in?

ps- Yeah I like Behringer, heh.
 
regardless of whether you truly like behringer....

Take a step back....

Beheringer has its uses, but I promise, if you outfit your entire signal chain in berhinger you will be going down routes 3, 4, 5 & 6 in a years time.

The prices are low for a reason. "Invisible Mic Preamps" are not really invisible, not even close. The hype you read about is advertising.

I'm not sure what your looking to record (analog/midi/drums/samples), but if your ready to get serious, behringer should be your absolute last resort.

My Suggestion to you is to loose the compressor and control surface and put that money back into your soundcard, dedicated mic pre, and a decent entry level mic (B1, A-51, C2000B), and software (which you haven't mentioned).

The point is....Each piece of Berhinger gear you insert into your chain will increase the probability that you will have to make another purchase in a year or so, add more noise to your recordings, or capture thin cold tracks.

Post some more info and see what others here suggest, I have a feeling they may not disagree.
 
Woah, I didn't know Behringer products were such a bad investment, I honestly didn't. I guess I am very glad I posted here after all.

As far as software goes, I have been using Adobe Audition for the past couple of years but have recently got hold of a copy of Logic Platinum 5.5 from a friend and that's been working out a treat thus far, loving the plugins. Considered a ProTools LE setup with a second hand 002 rack or something but after reading all the bad press about ProTools on forums and the like I decided against going the ProTools route.

I firmly planned upon route 3, 4 & 5 in the forthcoming years anyway because I wasn't aware that I could make investments with such a small budget that wouldn't need upgrading anyway... really all I'm looking for at the moment is a solution for the next year or so, but if you can recommend specific value for money mics and pres that won't need upgrading for a while then I'd much rather that route.

I always thought Behringer equipment was cheap because of the way it's maufactured, not necessarily its quality, at least that's what most reviews said anyway.

How many I/Os is futureproof on the soundcard would you say? Oh, all I'm going to be recording is vocals, though various types of vocals.

And which mic pre would you recommend?

Thanks for your help thus far, you may very well have stopped me making some bad purchases.
 
Phobea said:
How many I/Os is futureproof on the soundcard would you say? Oh, all I'm going to be recording is vocals, though various types of vocals.
Click to expand...

Eight is pretty solid, unless you were going to record full bands live you should be good with that.

If you can't swing that, four is very flexible.

Two I don't recommend--someday you'll want to record something in stereo along with another mic on something else, that's one more in than you would have.
 
Look into the following:

Soundcard:

MAudio Delta 44 (Audio only)
MAudio Delta 66 (Ausio/Midi)

*both have 4 ins and 4 outs via TRS. The only difference is the Midi connection on the 66 PCI card. I have the 44 and its already lasted me 1 1/2 years without fault.

Software:

Adobe Audition is great, use that.

Mic Pres:

Mixer - Yamaha Mg10/2

*a mixer will give multiple pres at a low price, 4 outs for your 4 in soundcard, while also giving you the flexibility of routing the signal through external effects down the road)

or

StandAlone: Maudio DP3. Great reviews on this HR BBS.

Cables:

Don't try to save money on the cables to connect all this stuff, they are your lifeline.

Mics:

This is worth another thread. Try before you buy if you can.
 
I've seen a lot of posts where people are just getting into recording and jump right to Protools/Protools LE - whatever. You really can do just fine without dropping that kind of cash. Even the MBox, which I believe has Protools LE, CAN be beat for the price. There are some great sound interfaces, and some great multitrack software options too - all that won't break the bank. You've already decided against PT, so that's it about that.

The Yamaha MG mixers are nice. Even the MG 10/2 is a nice little mixer and actually has some nice pre's on it.

Delta sound cards are nice too. Seen some good things said about them, and have heard the 66 in action. Only M-Audio product I've owned/used is the Audiophile 24/96. That was a nice card for the price. Now, I own an Echo Audio Gina 24 - rock solid for me.

For a standalone pre, I'd recommend either the DMP3 or the Studio Projects VTB-1. Both have gotten pretty good press around here. DMP3 is two channel, VTB-1 is single channel. I've found the VTB-1 to be a decent unit that give me the sound I like.

For mics, well that's been covered in the mic forums here many a time. There are some really decent, low cost, condenser mics available. One thing though: that market is pretty saturated. If you can get to a local music store that might have some demo mics, try them out. Or maybe you know someone you can borrow from? I've owned a Studio Projects B1 and liked it (got rid of it to afford a more decent vox mic). I also own a CAD M177 mic - really nice condenser. CAD had a pretty good rep around these parts.

Thought I'd throw my 2 cents in about cables too: JKestle has a good point. In particular, please stay away from Hosa stuff.

P.S. Remember to have FUN after you get your studio together are start recording.
 
Thanks for the replies guys.

I think I'm going to go for the new M-Audio Audiophile 192 as it has 8 I/Os and MIDI, and all for £119. It's either that or the Delta 1010LT at £175. I already have a basic Surround Sound card for 5.1 output mixing.

Sidenote - Am I better gonig for a soundcard or an interface? Bearing in mind I plan to purchase a decent controller/mixer in the not-too-distant (probably the MOTU 2408 MkIII). I don't really understand what interfaces do unless they are just portable replacements for preamps and the like.

Whilst I'm still learning Logic I am actually sticking with Audition for most of my projects, I'm just a lot more effiecient with it for the now and I'm not desperate to make the crossover with Audition's new VST and ReWire support. I will switch eventually though. I have demos of all of the major sequencers (Cubase SX 3, Sonar 4, Ableton Live 4, Acid Pro 5, Logic 5.5, Nuendo 2 and FL Studio 4 - working on getting FL5, and I can't really demo ProTools but I've used HD briefly) so I'm going to experiment with all of them to see which I like working with the most. I will probably go for Logic though, for it's EXS sampler and various other little quirks.

As a sidenote - are there any reasonably priced cards I can purchase to run roughly 6 real-time plugins off of, in much the same way ProToolsHD setups do? I think they're called DSP cards? I've seen a few in my price range by companies such as TC Electronics and these come shipped with their own plugins. Are these cards/racks able to work with third-party plugins or just those that come with them? I use an average of 16 tracks and 6 plugins and lately my computer has been finding it difficult to cope.

As for dedicated preamp/compressors I've been looking around and these have taken my fancy: Focusrite Penta, Focusrite Voicemaster Pro, Avalon-VT737P (haha I wish),

If I were to get a budget mixer like the Yamaha MG16/6FX, are the preamps on such mixers good enough to eliminate the need to get a dedicated pre? I need a lot of control over the pre by way of limiting, eq, de-esser, gain, and warmth, do mixer pres give control over those aspects?

Are Behringer really that bad? I'm quite taken by the UB2442FX.

I haven't been able to find anything about either the DMP3 or the Studio Projects VTB-1, do you know anywhere I could find/buy these?

...and then after all of that I see something like Tascam's DP-01FX portastudio and wonder to myself whether I might as well just get it all in one box and save myself a fair bit of money. 8 tracks wouldn't be enough though, no.
 
Hi Phobea, you might want to check the spec of the audiophile card you mentioned. I believe it only has 2 analog ins and 2 analog outs.

I use a Delta 1010LT and am very happy with it. Look out for a german seller on ebay called klangmodul. I got my 1010LT (brand new) from him for about £150 delivered and that was 6 or so months ago.

I've never used an interface so i couldn't comment on that. All my pres and the mixer is all hooked up to the card so I don't need to faff about too much. We all record in slightly different ways though so an interface might be good for you. Hopefully someone will give you some info on that.

DSP cards are great for saving on processor resource but the good ones seem expensive. If you do a search on the UAD-1 card on here you will find some glowing reports. I'm currently saving for one.

The focusrite pres are ok, I had a penta for a while. I wouldn't get too hung up about outboard compression at the moment. Using compression on the way in isn't a great idea anyway and at the budget end you're not going to get anything that's a great improvement on bundled software, and you'll save yourself some pennies.

I would get out there and try to listen to as much stuff as possible but if you're after opinions I don't think your going to hear a massive difference in quality if you compare the pres on an MG mixer with a pre in the £100 a channel price range.

I've never used Behringer stuff but the reputation is pretty bad. The Yamaha seems to be a lot more mixer for not much more cash.

I usually fish about on ebay for european sellers selling brand new stuff a bit cheaper than in the shops. That said if I buy anything from a retailer it's usually digital village:

http://www.dv247.com/icat/homeofferslist

They stock both the DMP-3 and the VTB-1. in fact they have an offer at the moment of the VTB-1 and a Studio projects B1 ( a well respected budget LDC mic) for £140. That's an excellent deal even by UK prices.

Good luck with it all anyway
 
You've done it, you've twisted my arm. I was expecting to pay £140 for the mic alone so this deal is too good to pass up, providing the press they've got is legit.

I've emailed that guy on eBay just to confirm that postage is free and when he confirms I'll order that card aswell.

Thanks for your help everyone... now... which controller? heh.
 
Phobea said:
You've done it, you've twisted my arm. I was expecting to pay £140 for the mic alone so this deal is too good to pass up, providing the press they've got is legit.

I've emailed that guy on eBay just to confirm that postage is free and when he confirms I'll order that card aswell.

Thanks for your help everyone... now... which controller? heh.
Click to expand...

I'm glad some of the info was useful. At the budget end the B1 is probably the most popular LDC on this forum and some well respected engineers have given it the thumbs up.

I think the Klangmodul guys name is Stefan, I recall he was very efficient and pleasant to deal with.
 
behringer mixers are total crap - i had a 4 channel mixer to handle a few mics that i mixed down to stereo, the pres were horrific, and then one died and the other was a solid neil young-esque wall of sound. awesome. never buying behringer again.
 
Phobea-

If you're interested in DSP cards, I'd like to mention a line that gets far too little notice- Soundscape.

I have two of their Mixtreme cards which have one Motorola chip on them and can handle 16 channels of I/O. The new cards (Mixtreme 192) can go all the way to 192K, albeit on 2 channels only.

They also offer their Mixpander cards which have 5 or 9 chips on them and offer an incredible amount of power. They have a complete line of interfaces and I/O solutions and they are quite fairly priced for what they do.

Sometimes, this stuff can get confusing. The myriad possibilities can be overwhelming. I've been using Soundscape cards for close to 4 years now and one of the great things about them is just how well designed they are. Sydec (the parent company) is fanatical about their engineering and one thing you'll hear over and over from users is just how rock-solid their cards are. No driver issues. No crashes. They just work.

As far as I know, all of the plug-ins that run on DSP cards have to written specifically for the hardware. It's not possible to run VST or DX plugs on the card itself. The new version of the Soundscape Mixer software does support plug-ins, but they run natively on the host computer's CPU. However, since the DSP card removes most of the workload of handling the audio chores, it frees up your computer, allowing you to run more plugs that would be possible otherwise.

You can see their products HERE

Hope I gave you something else to consider!

Ted
 
Thanks for the further replies guys.

The Soundscape cards sound near-perfect but I just don't think I could switch sequencer, I'm too attached to both Audition and Logic already. Very good prices for what they offer though. If I ever find myself in the position to demo the Soundscape editor I may very well change my mind because those cards are awesome value.

I may as well put the money I would spend on a DSP card into extra RAM (running 256 DDR2 atm - pathetic I know) and perhaps a new cpu (been wanting to switch to AMD 64 for a while.. just isn't 'faster enough' compared to my p4 3.6ghz w/ HT to justify the upgrade yet).

Having ordered the mic and the preamp (VTB-1 & B-1) I'm still undecided on which soundcard to get.

I have narrowed it down to 2:


The main decision is between 192k and more I/Os. Both of which I don't really need at the moment, and would be solely for future-proofing.

As mentioned earlier I will only be recording one track at a time, the only other inputs I will possibly acquire are MIDI keyboards and/or an MPC. I'm not sure if my cpu can even handle 192k recording yet also.

Be nice if I've just totally overlooked the fact that the 1010LT is 192k-able.. I doubt it though. What do you guys think?
 
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Phobea-

There would be no need to switch sequencers at all. I use SONAR, but it will work fine with Audition or Logic, I'm sure. They have solid drivers for ASIO-2, WDM, GSIF and MME.

The included mixer software is completely transparent. I generally don't use it at all. Though you can run plugs in the newest version, I haven't upgraded to it, but might at some point.

The Soundscape approach offers an incredible amount of flexibility. In fact, I sometimes think that might be part of their problem. The products can do som many things, it's hard sometimes to explain exactly how you can use them. If you read their website carefully, you will begin to grasp all the different ways you can utilize their products.

As an aside, Soundscape was owned by Mackie for several years. At the time of thepurchase, we all were hoping that Mackie's wide base and extensive marketing would benefit SS and bring them into the mainstream. Instead, Mackie just wanted to rape the product line to get access to their DSP cards. After a great deal of wrangling, Sydec, somehow, managed to wrest control back from Mackie and buy back the company. This year, they've brought out a number of new, ground-breaking products and the future is looking much brighter for SS users.

Ted
 
Phobea said:
As far as software goes, I have been using Adobe Audition for the past couple of years but have recently got hold of a copy of Logic Platinum 5.5 from a friend and that's been working out a treat thus far, loving the plugins. Considered a ProTools LE setup with a second hand 002 rack or something but after reading all the bad press about ProTools on forums and the like I decided against going the ProTools route.
Click to expand...

Don't believe everybody on the forums!:)

I work with a Digi 002Rack and I know heaps of Pro tools users who are very thrilled with their equipment and software.

Anyway, you choose a card for several reasons and you clearly have abandonned the PT route, which is your right off course. If your choise is between I/O and 192k, I would definetely go for the first.
 
I haven't abandoned the PT route completely, moreso I've decided to give LE amiss completely and go PT when I can eventually afford an HD system.

Tedluk - I'm definately going to look further into that option then, I didn't fully comprehend its flexibility. I was for a second sold on the UAD-1 but I'll definately do more research before I buy anything now.
 
Phobea-

Good! I sometimes feel like I'm the only one out there using Soundscape products, especially living here in the states. (They have a much stronger presence in Europe).

Before you go PT, I'd encourage you to take a close look at their embedded systems as well. An awful lot of processing power available there and you'll get a lot more for your money from them as well as excellent support. Being (a lot) smaller sometimes has its advantages!

I'm kicking myself because I had a shot at a used Soundscape 32 system for less than half the new price and decided not to go for it. Stupid, stupid, stupid!

Ted
 
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