An older mix unspoiled by compression.

[Farview]

Point well taken. But don't you agree that over compression would have ruined the "Steely Dan" sound?

Over compression would ruin anything, that's how you can tell it's over compressed

You make it sound like the only goal then is finding and delivering THEIR goal. Well, that totally sucks! I am glad it is only a hobby for me.

When someone hires you to do some work for them, you end up workingFOR THEM. Who knew?

Yes, I confess. I compress everything too or at least limit it, mostly just to bring the peaks in out of the rain. ...And I have, at times, compressed stuff hard to bring it to life. I guess sometimes you have no choice.

Compression is a tool. When you have a nail, a hammer is what you use. When you have a screw, a screwdriver is what you use. You certainly wouldn't try to drive a nail with a screwdriver because a bunch of people on a forum told you that there is too much hammering out there.

I'm guessing because your make-up gain raises the noise floor which may tend to bury the room sound. I'm not sure.

It would raise the room sound with the noise floor. Your room sound would have to be buried in the noise floor to begin with.

 

[xstatic]

My whole point is that compression is just misused, not so much that Steely Dan, Fagan etc... did not use it. Just that when they did, which could have been quite a bit, they used it tastefully and to their advantage. GOOD compression can be applied in large amounts to achieve certain sounds without sounding compressed.

Maybe this thread should not be about "an older mix unspoiled by compression". To me that insinuates that there was not much compression used. The truth is that we don't really know. Maybe this thread should be something like... "a shining example of good technique" or "compression the right way".

 

[mixsit]

It would raise the room sound with the noise floor. Your room sound would have to be buried in the noise floor to begin with.

Your release time is too slow. If you made it faster, the room would rush right up to the front. How far were you into the reduction?

Hmm, that sounds familiar. Where have I read that before?

 

[RawDepth]

...Another thing, there is generally MUCH more compression going on in analog recordings that many think! That is why this thread is cracking me up so much!!! Steely Dan has GOBS of compression going on. It just isn't always via a compressor.

I never said Steely Dan didn't use compression. I merely said they didn't SPOIL their songs with it.

Did anyone think it was a good thing that a rookie (me) even noticed that on his own? I mean, I am sitting here at home struggling to learn recording techniques with little or no help from any-damn-body. I only learn by experimenting, by spending time reading stuff here at the forum, and by listening closely to as many mixes as possible. When I start a new thread, it is usually because I could use a little input and/or discussion from others who know what they are talking about. I appreciate everyone's help and guidance but, I don't need made an ass of, belittled, or called an ignorant fool just because one of my observations seemed "off course" to someone.

I am really sorry if my postings have ruined anyone's day. I'll try not to bother you so much anymore.

RawDepth

 

[mixsit]

I never said Steely Dan didn't use compression. I merely said they didn't SPOIL their songs with it.

Did anyone think it was a good thing that a rookie (me) even noticed that on his own? I mean, I am sitting here at home struggling to learn recording techniques with little or no help from any-damn-body. I only learn by experimenting, by spending time reading stuff here at the forum, and by listening closely to as many mixes as possible. ..
RawDepth

No man, don't bother taking it that way. In spite of the good (and more experienced than you or I ) contributions to threads, sometimes a simple original point or context just flys right by.
That, and sometimes I suspect that at this point, people's ears are so steeped in compression effects it really is sounding 'normal.

No, your point is not completely lost here.

 

[xstatic]

To me there is a difference when you say "unspoiled by compression" and "unspoiled by bad compression". The first seems to imply that there is no compression where the second statement implies that the compression used was bad. I wish people would stop thinking of compressors as a way to remove or limit peaks. There are many more creative ways to use them and often times they can be used to help the appearance of dynamics. Compressors do not have to suck the dynamics out of tracks. In fact, if used well, they often won't. This is also assuming that you are using good compressors as well...

 

[mixsit]

To me there is a difference when you say "unspoiled by compression" and "unspoiled by bad compression". The first seems to imply that there is no compression where the second statement implies that the compression used was bad. I wish people would stop thinking of compressors as a way to remove or limit peaks. There are many more creative ways to use them and often times they can be used to help the appearance of dynamics. Compressors do not have to suck the dynamics out of tracks. In fact, if used well, they often won't. This is also assuming that you are using good compressors as well...

Fair enough. I did not take Raw's first post that way. But would you agree that compressors are being used to suck the dynamics out -and very often? (not just at the amateur level?) It's apparent in almost every direction.

And here we are tuning our ears and skills to know the difference.

 

[xstatic]

I agree that many people abuse them, but it can be very hard to tell where the abuse was... tracking? mixing? mastering? My bet is a lot of the problems we hear happen in the mastering stage because thats what the labels want.

 

[Ironklad Audio]

for the record, it's not absolutely essential to use compression to mix metal...i've just finished tracking the instrumentals for an hour-long metal album and am working on the mix now, and have so far only had to compress the bottom snare mic...it looks like i might need a compressed sub-mix for the toms, and of course for the vocals, but the rest is getting nothing but a little bit of EQ.

i did a demo a few months ago for the same group, where everything got compressed to shit mostly out of habit, and the mix i ended up with then just doesn't have nearly as much life as this new project - i could HEAR the music when everything was squashed, but i couldn't FEEL it

 

[MCI2424]

A lot of this depends on where you are in the industry. If you are working at some studio where people just randomly come and go (i.e. no major label budget) than half of your work is doing what the artist wants, but then the other half of your clients will also need and/or appreciate your advice and technique as an engineer. If however you are an engineer who is HIRED to come do projects, than your inout and style is expected if not required. In the end, I don't care what Bruce Swedian or Steve Albini think about compression. They have their clients, they have their style, and they have their results. On here however I see names like this thrown around a lot. Truth be told, yes they may be excellent and well respected engineers. However, they are only two of a great many people doing incredible work. I think engineers like that tend to get their names dropped in circles like HR.com more often than many because their techniques "simplify" many peoples opinions of what they need to do. Honestly, when you ahve great preamps, great mics, good experience, good rooms, great clients etc... the cheap equipment can be integrated here and there with more success. Also, something like a "compressor" would not be nearly as vital. Then again, I am sure that everyone (except maybe one or two people here) has never sat in on a session with these guys, or not even met them. I think a lot of people might be pretty surprised to see just exactly how much compression and EQ does get used in some of those sessions were they to actually be there.....

The question as to how much _____ does the pro use is in a simple answer:

Alot to a little. I worked in many pro studios (as well as my own home studio) and can tell you that racks of compressors/pre-amps/etc. are not there for show. This shit costs thousands and is usede everyday in everyway.

The difference is that this is HOME recording and not PRO recording.

In a pro studio, you get handed some pretty awefull sounding tracks to mix (if you are a mix AE) and every job is different. It is you (the AE) who is paid to make a mix sound good. All these tools get the job done.

The Steve Albini's of the world do their own tracking as well as mixing, and if you can do both, you have a whole lot more control over how, when and where compression, eq, etc. can be applied. Hand Mr. Albini some tracks that were done by a hack, and let's see how much eq etc. he has to use in order to do a pro mix.


I also see as I peruse the Electric Audio website that he has an awful lot of these tools at his disposal..................Makes me wonder.

 

[Ironklad Audio]

yea no shit...who's going to have $50,000 worth of compressors sitting in a rack, just to look at them?

 

[xstatic]

The question as to how much _____ does the pro use is in a simple answer:

Alot to a little. I worked in many pro studios (as well as my own home studio) and can tell you that racks of compressors/pre-amps/etc. are not there for show. This shit costs thousands and is usede everyday in everyway.

The difference is that this is HOME recording and not PRO recording.

In a pro studio, you get handed some pretty awefull sounding tracks to mix (if you are a mix AE) and every job is different. It is you (the AE) who is paid to make a mix sound good. All these tools get the job done.

The Steve Albini's of the world do their own tracking as well as mixing, and if you can do both, you have a whole lot more control over how, when and where compression, eq, etc. can be applied. Hand Mr. Albini some tracks that were done by a hack, and let's see how much eq etc. he has to use in order to do a pro mix.


I also see as I peruse the Electric Audio website that he has an awful lot of these tools at his disposal..................Makes me wonder.

I am not certain why you quoted my post... I guess I do not understand what yours is about. It seems to me that what you are saying is in direct parallel to my prior post that you quoted.

Anyhow... I do understand that this is HOME recording. However, when a parallel or reference to pro recording is made, than there is no reason why a reply that deals with things in a pro fashion or recommending pro gear is not called for.

Also, just as a point of reference... HOME RECORDING does not have to mean cheap and basic. There are some very high end "Home Studio's" throughout the world. That seems to be a common misconception here...