An older mix unspoiled by compression.

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RawDepth

RawDepth

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I was bored so I ended up listening to a few store bought CDs through the studio monitors. Now that I have a sub and my room is treated some, I can hear things more clearly.

I never realized how well built the Steely Dan stuff was until now.

Babylon Sisters
Hey Nineteen
Bad Sneakers

Whew!!! It's so dynamic. Unspoiled by compression. Each instrument sounds surprisingly natural and lifelike. If you close your eyes you can even notice the natural room ambience. It is awe-inspiring. Young Engineers should study it and learn from it. This is our goal folks...natural sounding instruments.

My hat's off to all the engineers involved. From tracking to mastering, it's a splendid piece of work.

RawDepth
 
Babylon Sisters is such an excellent example of great dynamics....... it puts a smile on my face everytime. All the Steely Dan stuff is ear candy, and every aspiring AE should listen to it and learn.
Another great dynamic piece is Madman Across the Water by Elton John.
 
Compression is one of the main issues I've been dealing
with in my mixes lately.
Through time I've figured out (kinda) how to
get control of the dynamics so that working with
the tracks is more "manageable" during
mixdown but the end result doesn't
sound very lifelike or natural -- which makes
me want to take your advice and listen
to the Steely Dan stuff. I have seen it
mentioned that their mixing is well regarded
but have never really listened to them
closely.

My first thought was that my software compressor
is poor, so I've started to look for
a more transparent compressor.

Or maybe it's my technique -- maybe I just
don't know how to work with the compressor or
maybe I'm just using too much compression.

Or maybe compression is just generally bad,
which some such as Steve Albini and
Bruce Swedien seem to imply.

On my current mix I've tried to cut back and/or
eliminate the compression and the sound is
better but I've found I've had to move down
my average volume level so as to give
room on the top without going into the red.

Certainly I'm no expert but I am struggling with
it, trying to improve.
 
If you don't think most of the old Steely Dan stuff used "compression", you are a VERY ignorant fool!
 
RawDepth said:
This is our goal folks...natural sounding instruments.

Well, that's ONE goal.

Let's use painting as an anology. If every painter tried to paint natural life-like paintings, think of all the great works that we would have missed. All the impressionists, surrealists, etc, etc.

As far as music,, well, don't even get me started.

All this, from a guy who strives for natural sounding mixes, and has a hard time putting "effects" for the sake of effects on mixes - go figure. :D
 
There's compression, and there's COMPRESSION.

Al Schmitt, who engineered the Aja album, and who has a minor specialty in that kind of smooth jazz sound (e.g. George Benson, Diane Krall) may have used compression the way God intended it, but he certainly didn't use COMPRESSION the way most mooks are want to do today.

G.
 
Ford Van said:
If you don't think most of the old Steely Dan stuff used "compression", you are a VERY ignorant fool!
Of course I know they used compression. I was pointing out the fact that they kept it to a minimum. It didn't sound "over" compressed like a lot of modern day mixes. Too many people are forming the idea that you have to squash the hell out of everything just to make it fat.
 
NL5 said:
Well, that's ONE goal.

Let's use painting as an anology. If every painter tried to paint natural life-like paintings, think of all the great works that we would have missed. All the impressionists, surrealists, etc, etc.

As far as music,, well, don't even get me started.

All this, from a guy who strives for natural sounding mixes, and has a hard time putting "effects" for the sake of effects on mixes - go figure. :D
I don't think the studio engineer should try to be the impressionist or the surrealist. We should let that up to the performers. Instead, we should focus on capturing the performance from its best angle and delivering it in its best light. The goal should indeed be to not distort it too far from where it started. ...Or, in other words, to keep it natural.

Does anyone else feel this way?
 
I don't think there is such a thing as "over compression". If the producer and artist achieved the sound they wanted, then NOTHING was "over compressed" at all eh? ;)
 
That "Steely Dan" sound certainly ain't going to work for Megadeath or Pantera, or Suicidal Tendencies, or GWAR, or etc.............. ;)
 
RawDepth said:
I don't think the studio engineer should try to be the impressionist or the surrealist. We should let that up to the performers. Instead, we should focus on capturing the performance from its best angle and delivering it in its best light. The goal should indeed be to not distort it too far from where it started. ...Or, in other words, to keep it natural.

Does anyone else feel this way?

Listen man, there are NO RULES IN AUDIO PRODUCTION!!!

If you had to do this for a living, trust me, you would sing a VERY different tune! It starts becoming far less about what YOU think is "good and bad" and "right and wrong", and even farther less about what YOU think the music should sound like.

Possibly, you have a far too romantic idea of the recording/mixing engineers job in the studio.

Simply, they are there to serve the needs and wishes of the producer and/or artist. Indeed, you may be asked to come up with some ideas, and/or make some decisions, but just like I illustrated above, you cannot apply the same kinds of production techniques to every band! If you tried, you wouldn't get a lot of work!
 
RawDepth said:
The goal should indeed be to not distort it too far from where it started. ...Or, in other words, to keep it natural.

Does anyone else feel this way?


I read that Steve Albini said that "vocals are the
only instrument you have to compress a
little bit".
 
RawDepth said:
If you close your eyes you can even notice the natural room ambience.


I've been mixing a vocal today and I was comparing
back and forth, with and without compression,
and I made the observation that compresion
tends to really kill the room reverb.
I was only using mild compression on
the vox of 1.5:1 and it took out a lot
of the room sound. I wish I knew what
it is about compression that takes away the
room.
 
Ford Van said:
That "Steely Dan" sound certainly ain't going to work for Megadeath or Pantera, or Suicidal Tendencies, or GWAR, or etc.............. ;)
Point well taken. But don't you agree that over compression would have ruined the "Steely Dan" sound?

Ford Van said:
Listen man, there are NO RULES IN AUDIO PRODUCTION!!!

If you had to do this for a living, trust me, you would sing a VERY different tune! It starts becoming far less about what YOU think is "good and bad" and "right and wrong", and even farther less about what YOU think the music should sound like.

Possibly, you have a far too romantic idea of the recording/mixing engineers job in the studio.

Simply, they are there to serve the needs and wishes of the producer and/or artist. Indeed, you may be asked to come up with some ideas, and/or make some decisions, but just like I illustrated above, you cannot apply the same kinds of production techniques to every band! If you tried, you wouldn't get a lot of work!
You make it sound like the only goal then is finding and delivering THEIR goal. Well, that totally sucks! I am glad it is only a hobby for me.

Brackish said:
I read that Steve Albini said that "vocals are the
only instrument you have to compress a
little bit".
Yes, I confess. I compress everything too or at least limit it, mostly just to bring the peaks in out of the rain. ...And I have, at times, compressed stuff hard to bring it to life. I guess sometimes you have no choice.

Brackish said:
I've been mixing a vocal today and I was comparing
back and forth, with and without compression,
and I made the observation that compresion
tends to really kill the room reverb.
I was only using mild compression on
the vox of 1.5:1 and it took out a lot
of the room sound. I wish I knew what
it is about compression that takes away the
room.
I'm guessing because your make-up gain raises the noise floor which may tend to bury the room sound. I'm not sure.

RawDepth
 
Ford Van said:
If you had to do this for a living, trust me, you would sing a VERY different tune! It starts becoming far less about what YOU think is "good and bad" and "right and wrong", and even farther less about what YOU think the music should sound like.

Possibly, you have a far too romantic idea of the recording/mixing engineers job in the studio.

I do this for a living and it really depends on your relationship with the artist and their experience. Most artists will seek you out for your production/engineering skills after they have heard the work that you've done in the past and will want your opinions. It's more the self-absorbed "rock starts" that are dictatorial.

If you've been in the business long enough (as a musician or engineer) you begin to realize that you are only as strong as the network you belong to and that no man is an island.
 
masteringhouse said:
I do this for a living and it really depends on your relationship with the artist and their experience. Most artists will seek you out for your production/engineering skills after they have heard the work that you've done in the past and will want your opinions. It's more the self-absorbed "rock starts" that are dictatorial.

If you've been in the business long enough (as a musician or engineer) you begin to realize that you are only as strong as the network you belong to and that no man is an island.

I don't wholey disagree with this. That fact is though, that even if you don't "like" that "over compressed" sound, there are genre's that don't sound right unless you apply that kind of production technique. You would not be working long in the industry if you decided that Steely Dan production techniques are the end-all of audio production and will be applied to every death metal artist your engineer for. ;)

So, while you sort of make a good point, in the end, what I originally said is very true. You serve the artist and/or producer. Yes, they may ask "What do you think", but the fact is that if you come in with Hank Williams Jr. production ideas for the Rancid production, you probably won't be lasting long on the Rancid production eh? ;)
 
Brackish said:
I read that Steve Albini said that "vocals are the
only instrument you have to compress a
little bit".

Keep in mind that Albini at this stage of his career probably doesn't need to deal with musicians that suck real bad.

If you are tracking a garage band where the bassist and drummer simply can't manage two notes near the same level, or if you have a singer who acts like they are having a seizure while singing, compression is your friend.

Doing a "natural" mix with tracks like that and then expecting the overall volume to get to "commercial" CD levels in mastering . . . well . . .

Compression is your friend.
 
RawDepth said:
I don't think the studio engineer should try to be the impressionist or the surrealist. We should let that up to the performers. Instead, we should focus on capturing the performance from its best angle and delivering it in its best light. The goal should indeed be to not distort it too far from where it started. ...Or, in other words, to keep it natural.

Does anyone else feel this way?
Yes. And No. ;)

It really depends upon the project. There are a lot of good points form both sides of view in this thread, but the fact is that it totally depends upon the project and, as Tom says, the relationship between the performers and the engineer. Or, to put it another way, who (by concensus agreement) is PRODUCING the album?

The producer - and I mean producer by the traditional definition, not in the violated and twisted definition adopted by third-generation hip hop - is to the music production much what the director is to a film production. He calls the shots as to the "sound and feel" of the production and coordinates with and directs both the performers and the engineers to acheive that sound. The producer hat can be worn by a seperate individual or (as is usually the case in smaller projects like those done by most folks here) can be donned by the artist(s) or engineer, or both.

Who plays the part of producer is one of the first decisions that should be made long before the record button is ever hit, because whatever vision for the final sound that they have is going to determine just what needs to be done in performance, in tracking, and in mixing.

There are many times when the job of the tracking and mixing engineers are more documentarian than anything else. There are other times where they are the 6th man in a 5-piece combo, where the engineer's performance, what they creatively contribute to the sound, is just as integral as the performance of any of those on the other side of the wire (see Alan Parsons). Most times, the engineers are a little bit of both and fall somewhere in-between.

In the case of Aja, Roger Nichols was chosen - hired, if you will - by producer Gary Katz (who in turn collaborated with Becker and Fagan) as the Executive Engineer for the project. Nichols, in turn, brought in other engineers - most notably Al Schmitt - for their specific sound specialties. The choice of Schmitt, especially known at the time for his success with George Benson's "Breezin'" album among others in the smooth jazz genre, was no accident...any more than was the decision to populate most of the Aja album with A-list jazz session players that were not actual members of Steely Dan (Larry Carltion, Wayne Shorter, etc.)

In other words, Schmitt as engineer was no more a part of the band "Steely Dan" than the session players who we all actually hear as "the performers", but he was every bit as much a part - if not more in some aspects - of the resulting sound as either Becker or Fagan were.

As far as there being rules and no rules, it's real easy to contradict one's self in that subject. For example, Fordie emphatically states (semi-correctly) that there are no rules. Then in the next breath he states the rule (semi-correctly) that metallurgy just doesn't sound right without heavy compression. I'm not jumping on Ford, it was just an immediately available example of the kind of philosophical oxymorons we are all guilty of at times.

Of COURSE there are rules. And of COURSE most of those rules can be successfully broken, making them seem like they're not really rules. This is true in any form of creative engineering from architecture to cooking to filmmaking to urban planning. Accept it for what it is. There are rules. The rules can be broken. The trick is to be good enough at your craft to know when to use the rules, when to break them (when you're even better), and if you're really good (but only then), when to create new ones.

And the only way to know when, IMHO, is to know *why*.

With compression it comes to to (IMHO) not where or when or how it's being used, but why. The use of compression (or the lack thereof) as a form of creatinve sound generation, from lightly compressing vocals to heavily smashing infinite guitar distortion is mostly fine. Using compression non-creatively, as marketing tool with only secondry consideration (if any) to what it actually does to the sound is - or at least should be, IMHO - out of bounds.

That is, there should be a rule against compression for competitive volume's sake. Period.

And like any rule in creative engineering, it can be broken ;). But breaking that rule should be the rare exception, not the new rule.

G.
 
Haven't read the opinions of Steve Albini and Bruce Swedien but I wonder if they were referring to compression while tracking. That would be a different animal than using compression while mixing.
 
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