an experiment: no chorus, no hook, still catchy?

  • Thread starter Thread starter grn
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I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with everyone.

I wish there was a nice way to say this.

I really didn't like it.

In fact, I had to force myself to listen to the whole thing.

There are some great songs out there with repetative melodies. However, they generally compensate for that by having interesting vocals and lyrics. I found the sound needlessly monotonous. I say "needlessly" because there were a few moments in there that I thought were designed as a showcase for vocal weirdness, but instead passed like an empty stage.

The biggest problem is the lyrics. They really lack color and description. It almost felt like they were being written as they went along. They are entirely uninteresting. I wouldn't have thought it possible, but in the last few lines of the song, it actually gets worse. These words are one-dimensional. They are plagued by cliche. I felt like beating both you and Brianne by the end of the song.

I can't figure out if the prupose of this song is to impress other guys, to woo Brianne, or to show all the ladies how sensitive and romantic you can be. As a lady, I have to say, I absolutely was not moved. By the 3rd line, I had an image of a drunken frat boy messing around with a 4-track. Nothing wrong with frat boys, but they aren't really notoriously deep. And I'm thinking that if Brianne would be impressed by this, she's not someone I would want to hang with anyhow.

I'm sorry to have to say all this. However, you have a nice voice and you obviously have some nice equipment. I recommend you rewrite the lyrics. It's not beyond saving. I really think it's tragic though that so many people came out and told you this was great. They weren't doing you any favors.
 
woah, woah woah.

I don't wanna be Mr Leap-to-the-Defense-of-grn, but I'd just like a bit of clarification of your criticique, Limowreck.

You say that the end of the song is plagued with cliche - which words in specific? how would you change these words?

"I can't figure out if the prupose of this song is to impress other guys, to woo Brianne, or to show all the ladies how sensitive and romantic you can be" - why does the point have to be any of these? could it just be a tribute to Breanne? I guess grn would have to answer this one.

also, where are the moments in the song where you would like to hear "vocal wierdness" and what exactly do you mean by this?

You have a right to your opinion, and your criticisms may be justified, but I think you need to clarify your point a bit (for me to get it, anyway :P)
 
go ahead, leap to my defense. I'd like to know about "vocal weirdness" too. the purpose of this song wasn't any of the reasons listed. it was an experiment, and some people (maybe even you) are conditioned to hear repetition, choruses, similar verses, etc... I don't want to impress Breanne, though she is a real girl, she will never hear this song... she probably will never know I'm even attracted to her. I'm much too shy and mostly nervous.

it's just a gay poppy song anyway. it's about making love. it's music for the sake of music. the production is horrible. the vocals are nice, the "cliche" bit at the end is just me listing perfumes...

I think my favorite lyrics in it are "carnal bliss"... because it's so blunt and explicit and "Lying in bed with your hair spread out on the blankets, I gaze in your eyes and smile, then you say to me... you have me for one moment in time..." That created the most imagery for me. It's about wanting something you can't have. it is a tragedy.

anyway, I'll most likely polish it off and use it for something. regardless of what one person says.
 
hmmm limowreck. hmmm.

"fight fire with fire" is my new motto.

i don't think anyone here -even the songwriter- would claim that there isn't a significant amount of cheese in the song. tongue-in-cheek, it's called. it seems to me that it's this cheesiness that offends you.

now, we all certainly have our own particular tastes and preferences, but the purpose of this forum isn't to expound on them. rather, it is meant to be a constructive and technical platform to discuss work. nothing you have said is contructive or technically useful. (nobody cares if you're interested in hanging out with Breanne or not!)

what is particularly repetitive about grn's melodies?! as far i'm concerned there are several melodies in the song, and variations on those.

frankly, i don't actually understand your concerns. it seems to me that you've gone a whole huge step beyond the song itself, made your own associations, made your own deductions, assumed them true, and found fault with them.

hmmm. i'm sorry to say this, but you give the impression that you don't know what you're talking about.
 
NationalSandwic said:
andy: phew, well, i don't want to make a thing about this... but, your definitions are good, and against them,
1) It's a song, not an instrumental piece.
2) It's a single piece, not a series of movements or pieces. (Note: a 'compostition' doesn't necessarily mean a single piece. A symphony is a composition, although it is made up of 3, 4, 5, even 6 movements.)
Click to expand...

Alright, I'll buy that, but you'd better send the memo to the likes of CSNY (Suite: Judy Blue Eyes or whatever it's called), John Denver (Seasons Suite and Rocky Mountain Suite [both with lyrics and the latter clocking in at about 2:15]) and many others. Anyway, my point is that the word may have changed meanings in modern times. Just like "swinger" or "gay" or "thong." Really tho, I appreciate the insite. Peace.
 
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Limowreck - to be honest, on reflection, I agree with you. The fact is that very, very few people can actually write songs that really have merit. It's a gift that seems, superficially, easy enough to emulate that many try. I have been a member of this board for a few years and nothing I have seen / heard here, including my own contributions, has come within a mile of having any particular quality whatsoever.

Let's face it, the truth is that real songwriters have better places to go that this bbs. Sorry folks.
 
Garry Sharp said:
Limowreck - to be honest, on reflection, I agree with you. The fact is that very, very few people can actually write songs that really have merit. It's a gift that seems, superficially, easy enough to emulate that many try. I have been a member of this board for a few years and nothing I have seen / heard here, including my own contributions, has come within a mile of having any particular quality whatsoever.

Let's face it, the truth is that real songwriters have better places to go that this bbs. Sorry folks.
Click to expand...
I think that's a BIT harsh, but I see your point - no-one here is a fucking AMAZING songwriter, otherwise they wouldn't BE here.

Having said that, we're all here to help each other learn, and posting un-constructive criticism which measures a promising song up against impossibly high standards is NOT what this place is about - if I measured every song I wrote up to Springsteen or Lennon, would have slit my wrists by now.

None of us are natural born geniuses here, but we can at least learn to use the skills we have to their full potential.
 
You guys haven't heard my other songs, this one was just an experiment, I'm a natural born genius. ;) Even when it does happen for me in the next few years, I'll still come here. <3
 
grn said:
You guys haven't heard my other songs, this one was just an experiment, I'm a natural born genius. ;) Even when it does happen for me in the next few years, I'll still come here. <3
Click to expand...

on ya mate :cool:
 
Garry Sharp said:
Let's face it, the truth is that real songwriters have better places to go that this bbs. Sorry folks.
Click to expand...

hmmm, garry, i've got to say that that's a little caustic. i'm not on this BBS in the hope that it'll do anything for my career. i'm on it because i'm interested in what other people have to say and think about music.

then again, it IS called 'homerecording.com', which implies that no, people are not professionals here, so the point is fairly moot.

personally, i don't have other places to go in my city. the state of writing and performance is poor, even if people won't admit it.

one thing I can say though, is that there is merit to the point that (if we are serious) we should be trying to be elsewhere. i can see how this forum can become a time-consuming crutch. and if you're a pro writer or musician, you don't have time for crutches! it's related to a point i posted in another thread called "opionions please", where i said that i don't think people word hard enough on their music, i don't think they take pride in producing the best possible work.

so, although i think you're being a little calloused, i'd agree that this forum is NOT a platform to launch a career, and it is NOT a place to hang about for any stretch of time if you're really serious about a career in music. if you are serious, you should be on stage, recording, writing, and sorting your shit out!
(a little lecture to myself :))
right. there ya go.
 
Well I didn't mean to be caustic; anybody who knows you will tell me that's just not in my nature. If you read my post in the light of Limowreck's, to which it was addressed, you might detect a touch of irony ;)

On the other hand I have to confess it was written when I was feeling pretty down about the point of all this music effort and seriously thinking about dumping it for another hobby. Then we did a little open mic slot last night at a fairly well known London blues venue (I didn't want to bother, our singer - my fiancee - made me) and as soon as we'd finished we were booked as a main act for next month, so I suppose that ought to make me feel a bit better. (That wasn't a boast BTW, we are not talking serious music biz here.)

Don't know, really.......I suppose creating music is nothing if it's not about emotion and you can get negative as well as positive. Anyway, end of ramble :)
 
I for one is glad to have found this forum, allthough I consider myself a giftet songwriter (humble eh :p )
There ain't too many good forums about songwriting. This is one of them.
I think good songwriters that has come farther (publishing deals etc) have their hands full making music, but until that happens to all the gifted people in here, I certainly hope they will stay and contribute in a forum like this one.
About that song of yours; I don't find it "new" and original in too many ways. I can stand listening to it, no problem. It ain't bad; just plain normal. It's like I've heard it all before.
Witch might be the trick of many hits out there. But the hits to be standing out the test of time often has this new creative touch and feel about them.
Keep it up though and add some reverb to that guitar next time. Sounds like 6 strings attached to your table :)
No offence though.
Good luck!
 
I'm sure you didn't mean to be, Garry. It's ok. And, I did pick up the irony ;)

That's great about you getting a regular gig.

Can't say I necessarily agree with the point about music being nothing if not emotional, though.... but that's another debate. :)

I think the point I'm trying to make is that you cannot discount peoples' abilities by virtue of the fact that they are currently amateur. On the other hand, I'll certainly agree with you that most stuff I've read on this forum promises no professional career for the writers, for various reasons!

It's hard to stay positive all the time; hell, i know it too well. And there's definitely a sense that some can and some can't, even though doing this music thing is something you can learn and, yes, emulate. The thing is this: just because you write songs, play an instrument, sing, etc. doesn't mean that anyone's going to be interested in paying money for you to keep on doing it! There's a reason that professional musicians, writers and producers get such a HUGE amount of money. It's because it's important that music is created properly, with care; and, there are very very few people who actually have the ability to come through every time.

Hmmmm... how depressing. Of course, it gets MUCH more complicated than that. A strange game of psychology and work... (shudder...)

anyway... there's my response. hope it was relevant?
 
grn said:
... it's music for the sake of music. ...
Click to expand...

If there's another reason to write songs, I don't wanna know it. :)

Do birds need a chorus?, a hook? I think NOT.
I write songs that don't have these formulas.
*shameless link to my songs* Garageband site NoWhereRadio site

I prefer to let the song go where it wants to naturaly.
If it ends up going back to something before it, so be it.
If you go to the store do you buy bread, drive around the parking lot, go back in the store buy some cheeeeeese, drive around the parking lot, go back in buy some milk, drive around the parking lot, then go home? No. Before some of you get on my case for that last statement.
I'm just making a point. In my opinion all genre's of music would benefit
immensly if we moved away from these "rules". And i don't just mean the rules of song structure. Does every figgin' metal band have to have cookie monster vocals? etc. We all know 'em when we hear 'em. I'm not saying I'm not guilty of these things myself. But, I do think we should sluff off the things that limit creativity. Nobody's gonna play a song on the radio without a chorus. But who cares, you might as well put all your energy into winning the lottery. You'd get about the same results. This is art, self expresion. Hell, put your guit on the floor 'n kick it! Cool.

The only comment I have on your song is that, in my opinion, it could use some key changes.

:)
 
wow nice. I fuckin love that song man. I mean, of course the recording sucks and all but I think the song as alot of potential.

I'd love to record a quality version of that song with some tweaks here and there.

And all of you complaining about the cheesy mood of the song... it's nice that way and you obviously wouldnt like Stephen Malkmus either.
 
weird, one of my friends mentioned Stephen Malkmus to me, but I never listen to my friends when it comes to music, because they don't even play an instrument
 
wow, I really like that song, already found myself singing along. I dont really know enough about structure/recording technique etc to tell you if its a good song, all I can tell you is I really like it!
Keep up the good work man,
Dave
 
come on, grn, you can't say that? you don't take ppls opinions on music if they dont play an instrument? imho, that's silly. i love hearing what non-musicians think about music. they're the real audience.

yup, stephen malkmus rocks. you said you know pavement; malkmus is the singer/writer. ;)
 
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