An Engineer's Most Important Job

[peritus]

Sorry I didnt catch the question earlier...

It's a good question, kina tricky to answer. I wouldn't say I broke into, but sorta ended up in it. Kind of like that movie "Thank you for smoking"...


Where he says,


"Well I didn't really plan on this job, I just sorta figured it out, got really good at it and now this is what I do."

No prolem...That's understandable... Gonna have to see that movie, I guess...

My orginal intent at 20 was to move out to california, start a band and do the typical "persue the dream" thing.

Yeah.. I had/have performance ambitions. myself... I like the feeling of being on stage (which is a one eighty from my day-to-day personality), but I feel more abstract with my music than is practical...

The real explosion didn't really happen until the last two years. Half way through fullsail I met up with Mike Busey (Gary busey's nephew) and started up a studio with him. He had alot of insiders information in the radio biz, since he used to have his own show on Real Rock 101.1 here in Orlando.

Fullsail.. Hmm.. Now that's what I'm talking about.. You found the courage, money, time, etc. to go to the school... That's where I struggle (really, it's the money end that gets me)...

Good at making a deal... and

Luck.. Yup... I see you've had your fair share of that too..

So I picked up more interest in the business plus learned a lot of the business side of it. How to talk to people, how to call a bluff, figuring out who's a bullshitter and who's for real. All very credible skills to have as an engineer.

Cool.. Cool.. Yes, I think I've attained a little of the poker side from my numerous false starts (with people who are either insincere or impractical)... Of course, there is a lot that guy taught you that I haven't even been near, yet...

After that, I had a relative who was a record executive in the latin music world, so he took me under his wing. I admit it wasn't my style of music at the time, but the experience did a 180 on me.

Wow.. You should play the lottery, bro!

He gave me all these massive projects to work with. I was a wreck at first, cause latin music is very complex stuff to mix and wrap yourself around.

Latin music would be a crash course in mixing. That's for sure! Prolly make my rig come to a standstill..

But he saw that I had a raw talent, so he stuck with me. He could of easily got a hold of any number of world class engineers, but he wanted me to have that experience. So about a year and a half later, after all the monster engineers I had the privlage of meeting, producers I enjoyed (sometimes didn't) working with and musicians that I've had beers and learned from...it puts me where I am today.

So like I said, I wasn't finding it, it just sorta happened to me. If I wasn't persistent and not afraid to fail, then I wouldn't be doing it today.

Thats my story.

That's a trip! I can only imagine where you'll go from here... Keep the top on that convertible up, so you don't torture your ears with white noise!!

I couldn't give you advice on how to get your foot in the door of a studio, but I can tell you about how to survive in the audio production as per my direct personal experience so far. You might like some of it, and you might not:

1) Choose your friends wisely. A smart man once told me, "if you hang out with retards, then you'll eventually be the same retard".

2) Set a high standard for yourself. If you are lucky enough to get into a high profile project, chances are the margin for error is very thin. So you have to be on top of your game at all times.

3) Learn to spot "dead ends" and "open doors". Working for some guy in his basement probably won't get you as far as working for people in legit places.

So if someone offers you a legit job that's close to what you wanna do, I suggest you take it. It might not be exactly what you want, but eventually it will lead to what you want. I would take a sound tech job at disney over a sketchy studio any day.

4) Openmindedness and flexibility. Studio managers love this one. There's nothing better than someone who can say yes to any project he is given. So think about it from thier point of view.

You don't have to like the project, but at least you have a job and brownie points.

5) Learn to be spiritual. Not religiously, but in your musical beleifs. This one seperates the "good" from the "greats". Any body can engineer a song and make it sound good, but there are musicians in this world that go *far* beyond that. Those are the challenging ones to work with, also the most exciting.

If you understand why music is the way it is, and why certain things are done and others aren't, then you can do amazing things behind a console.

6) Refuse to be anything but the best. Face it, this is the most competative and most frustrating industry to work in. Period. You have monsters out there that will steal your clientel if they can offer the better deal. It dosn't mean you should step on people, but you have to play smart.

So you have to be extremely focused and you have to be hard on yourself. It's almost like becoming a monk. You have to refuse all outside temptation, forget about having a life and become "a man of the console." (instead of a man of the cloth, get it?)

I think this is the one I don't like to discuss openly. But I'm the type of person that can hear a mix done by a monster and then tell myself, "wow, this is good, but I can do it better". A not that I could, but by telling myself that, I modivate myself to mimick excellent work. That's how I've taught myself everything I know how to do in a mixing session. I listen, I question and then I mimick. Eventually when I have thier technique down well enough, I try to find out ways to do it better.

7) Give yourself a break and take your time with everything you do. Sometimes you have to say, "FUCK IT!". Give yourself a week off from music. Relax the brain. There's nothing worse than a burnt out engineer. It pisses off the client, it pisses off the boss and it makes you look really bad.

Also, as Bob Katz once told me, "if it takes 6 hours to mix a song, then let it. Next time it will take 3."

8) Learn to take massive blows. Sometimes there's gonna be a situation where everything goes to shit. The console burns out, the producer cusses you out, the studio is about to fire you and your ego is suddenly no where to be found. Depending on how you conduct yourself during those unfortunate situations, will decide if you come out on top or if you'll end up unemployed.

People in this industry will be very supportive most of the time. However, when money, egos, reputations and stubborness are on the line, attitudes do change.

I personally studder when things reach boiling point. Which is good actually, cause that forces me to shut up and concentrate on work.

9) Always ask yourself questions. Every revelation started with one simple question: "why?" Never stop asking "why".



What it really comes down to is, you really have to want to do this to survive. There's nothing fancy about being an engineer. You might see big shots in nice looking studios, but in thier head, it's just another day of work. If you knew how many monster class engineers where insecure of themselves, then you'd feel a whole lot better.

Sometimes it can be too hard to handle, but you just gotta suck it up and see it through.

The best mixes in history have some element of pain and frustration behind them.

So the day someone really becomes an engineer, they silently take an oath to be a professional more than a fan. Of course, always be a fan of music, it's the best gift god and the devil ever gave mankind.

Great tips! Can't knock those...

I truly appreciate your effort in typing this all out for me.

It seems that the vast majority of people out there, in engineering land, have been formally trained, at one place or another (Berklee, Fullsail, etc)...

That seems to be the fulcrum of your battle... Once you were there, so many doors became accessible.... Looks like that will be the next step for me...

Hmmm... You've given me a lot to think about...

Thank you,
Joshua

P.S. Do you do a lot of travelling?

 

[TuoKaerf]

Great stuff Lee!

The unfortunate (and in many ways fortunate, depending how you look at it) reality is that now your chances of being hired right away as a paid position at a studio are slim to nil.

On the other hand, this blows open the freelance engineering field. With the cost of professional recording equipment going way down, you can buy yourself a high quality interface and control surface, a bunch of good plug-ins, a few good mics, some sound proofing, and a few nice pre's for under $15,000.

If you're smart about things, you can easially recoup that in under a year. Sure you might still have to work a day job for a bit, but this is all fun still right?

With the amount of local bands that are around today, there still is a high need for engineers. If you have your own equipment and a good demo CD to pass around, you are going to look very good. Ontop of that, you can do most of the production at your home setup then spend some money at a large facility for doing drums or overdubbing to get the sounds of that room and gear for much less than what it would cost to do it all there.

I've been "professionally" working as an engineer/producer for a little over a year now. I decided to attend a recording school after I became stuck trying to do it on my own. I've never regretted it. The people I met there are some of my closest friends, and my link to a lot of good paying gigs. My instructors have also opened doors to me, and the majority of them have multiple Grammy and platium albums. Aside from all of that, I had unreistricted access to 9 studios of top of the line gear. So when I walked into another studio around town, I felt right at home sitting down behind the SSL 4000 G.

It takes a lot of work, but with some smart networking, it can be done. Head to at least 2-3 local shows a week and meet bands. Walk up, introduce yourself, and buy them drinks. Of the 2-4 you meet, one will call you to record. Bands also like to see demo CDs of your work, and try to get some stuff together from multiple genres. It seems more impressive, and shows you are versitile.

Never do anything for free. Never. If all else, charge them for a case of beer. If you do a good job, they will pay you more for a future project.

I'm still working other odd and end jobs here and there, but it is all music related (giving lessons or playing random gigs). I'm no where near rich, or have worked with anoyone you'd ever hear, but its what I love to do and will never stop.

If you go into it with a positive mindset and a drive, you won't fail.

 

[peritus]

To TuoKaer:

That is a masterpiece of a post... Some of the most encouraging words I've heard in my lifelong journey towards this...

Thank you very much!!

P.S. Care to endorse your school, by name?

 

[Fletcher]

How did you break into the industry?.. I'm 22, just like you and I'm very curious..

I'm not Lee... but I've been gainfully employed in audio/music a little longer than you've been alive so I'll give it a stab.

If you really want to "get into the industry" set yourself up so there is no option but to be "in the industry". You have to live it, breathe it, eat it and shit it.

There are several striations of the industry... so you're going to have to kinda pick one and move in that direction. Audio for Television and audio for Motion Pictures is a far more civilized racket... complete with a union and an apprentice program [I think most of them are either IATSE or IBEW or something like that... I don't live in that world so I don't really know a shitload about it].

On the music front... first thing you do is quit your job and swear to yourself you'll never go back to the "straight gig" world. I don't know how it works... I definitely have no idea how those mooks can sit in traffic like that every morning and every night... as far as I can tell those people are dead... they just haven't figured out it's time to lay down and be done with it [fortunately, they like to go out dancing so people like us will have some work].

Now... you're unemployed!! Whoo-hoo let freedom reign supreme!! Except for that eating and paying the rent thing you have now found the meaning of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... now you better pursue your ass a gig or two or plan on being homeless, hungry and smelly [hint: nobody will hire you if you smell bad!!].

So now you're looking for a gig... you can A) hit up Mom & Dad for a loan, buy yourself some equipment and call yourself a studio... or B) find a band that wants to record and work cheap in someone else's studio while building yourself a client base [which you're going to have to do with "A" as well but it's in your studio]... C) get a shop gig with the local sound reinforcement company [know how to solder and lift with your legs... not your back] while you're trying to hustle up a recording gig or seven. D) none of the above but you'll figure out something because you have no options except "do or die".

Get known in the community.

Hang out at the "rawk" clubs where the band's play. Hang out with the bands. Become part of their community. Have something to offer them even if it's just blowing a joint behind the club it's a way to get your potential client base to let down their guard around you. If you can offer cheap studio time and a decent job then you're even more valuable to them. Understand that these are "business friendships" which are probalby not going to turn into "best man at your wedding" kinds of relationships... so be prepared for these same guys you're breaking your balls to help throwing you under the bus when they move to the next level!!

The good news is that you'll have them on your discography when they do move to the next level... which with careful "hanging out" and "networking" you too will rise to the next level.

There are like 40 levels in this game... collect them all!!

The top 1/2 a percent of this racket makes like 50 percent of the money... the next striation down from that will still make themselves a couple hundred long a year... down from that a solid hundred K [no benefits... you're working for yourself ace]... and it rolls exponentially down hill from there.

Work all the time, party when you can, and don't plan on a vacation in the islands until like 2018-2020 something around there. Take any and every gig that rolls down the pike until you're so damn busy that you have to raise your rates to weed out who is serious and who ain't.

There are 100 available work hours in a recording engineers week. When you have 80% of those hours booked then it's time to raise the rates to get your bookings down to like 40-50% [whoo-hoo!! Day off!! Maybe even a movie and some pussy if you're really livin' large].

At 22 you're starting a little late... but that doesn't mean you can't get where you want to go... it just means you started late and have to work that much harder to catch up.

Oh... last thing. Anybody who says "it's not what you know it's who you know" is only 1/2 right. It's all about "who knows what you know"... in other words you could be the best trained son of a bitch on the planet... if the people who are hiring don't know you exist then you don't exist. You have to spend as much [if not more] time learning to network than you do becoming an engineer... though if you don't know what you're doing as an engineer there is a glass ceiling that will hold you down like a motherfucker... it's kind of a "learn as you earn" program. When you buy yourself a gold watch after 20 years [I couldn't afford one] you'll know you have mastered the craft.

Remember... there are 100 hours in a week... if you're not earning be out learning... if you're not learning be meeting the people who can/will hire you. They can be found in the local music bars as well as the "musicians AA" meetings. It's a fine line, best of luck figuring it out.

Peace.

 

[bennychico11]

It seems that the vast majority of people out there, in engineering land, have been formally trained, at one place or another (Berklee, Fullsail, etc)...

this is not necessarily true. Although probably true for the three of us here, a lot of the old school mentality is that going to a university or trade school for recording is stupid. A lot of engineers also don't respect Full Sail students either, and that has to do with a varity of reasons. This is both a good thing and a bad thing. I do believe that just because you have a piece of paper you shouldn't get a cushy job getting paid $60,000 a year right out of school like so many jobs out there allow you to. But at the same time, if you get that piece of paper (which in the recording world hopefully means you have a basic/intermmediate understanding of recording too) then a studio shouldn't kick you out of the interview merely because you went to school for it and the interviewer didn't.
Today it's hard to get the training in the industry without going to school. So many studios don't want to bring an intern on and would prefer you to know something before coming in. And one of the best ways to get the training is to pay for school to get it. But if you DO get the training in school, don't get this mentality that you know everything there is to know and you can just walk into a studio and start running things. Mention the degree if someone asks where you got your training, but don't rely on it as much as lawyers do with their law degrees from Harvard. My boss asked me about my schooling, but I could have probably just as easily made up a school that I went to. He asked me what I knew more than anything and tried to see how he felt about my personality (which a lot of guys see as being more important than your training).

In short, don't think going to school is the only way to go. It certainly helps, if you are able to afford it...but just know that many people don't care about it. If you do go to school, do it for the training and the connections and not to say you got a degree.
-B

 

[bigtoe]

I don't know how it works... I definitely have no idea how those mooks can sit in traffic like that every morning and every night... as far as I can tell those people are dead... they just haven't figured out it's time to lay down and be done with it [fortunately, they like to go out dancing so people like us will have some work].

no no no...we're not dead, we're just tired from last night's session that ended at 3AM...or we're trying to catch some zzzz at 5PM rush hour on the way to the studio...

lately, most important i see lacking is showing up, shutting up and keep track of tracks. all seem to be lost arts which aren't too difficult...

Mike

 

[sweetnubs]

I haven't read all the other responses since I don't have the time or inclination so I may be reiterating the same information and if so tough cookies. You are talking about professional engineering I assume and if so most professional engineers are competent about phasing, mic choice and placement, equipment calibration, headphone mixes, logistics, etc. etc. etc. Of course this is no easy task to learn but it is also somewhat easy once you have lots of experience under your belt and it becomes more of a routine with some room for creativity. Once all of these basic skills is mastered the most important role of the engineer is client service and all that it entails: making the client feel comfortable, being an amateur psychologist, keeping water/coffee and tea on hand (and alcohol, dope, etc. if required) , knowing all the good expensive and good cheap restauraunts in the area, making sure the session runs smoothly (has a psychological impact on the client but falls more in the technical/experience realm). If you fuck up always blame it on faulty equipemnt, they'll beleive you if it doesn't happen too often) My point being all things considered equal which they tend to be on the "real" professional level, clients will return to someone they enjoyed working with. Whenever I hear musicians discussing various engineers ususally they talk about so and so was a "nice guy" or fun to work with. Beleive me this is most important at the professional level in order to maintain your business. The good thing about working with nubs is i'm quite funny and entertaining and also incidentally and good engineer. You know you're doing well when you've been in business for years and the coctail party invitations to former clients parties are more than you can possibly attend. They love thee nubs! I've know plenty of really excellent engineers that are a pain in the ass to work with and clients don't return to them, I know this because they show up at my place and compain about said engineers.

 

[peritus]

Thanks people... Lots to do.... I'll let you guys know how things are going, as they unfold....

Much respect,
Joshua

 

[LeeRosario]

P.S. Do you do a lot of travelling?

Oh not too much right now. Perhaps an occasional trip around florida all the way through Virginia, depending on the job.

You gotta really be in high demand for people to wanna start paying for airplane tickets and hotels. So that probably won't start happening until a little later.

I was being considered to engineer (assitant) a live festival in europe, but that's still being discussed.


Nice perk though!

 

[LeeRosario]

On the music front... first thing you do is quit your job and swear to yourself you'll never go back to the "straight gig" world. I don't know how it works... I definitely have no idea how those mooks can sit in traffic like that every morning and every night... as far as I can tell those people are dead... they just haven't figured out it's time to lay down and be done with it [fortunately, they like to go out dancing so people like us will have some work].

Now... you're unemployed!! .

AHAHA!

I know you're a lot older than I am, but I'm just happy I'm not the only one who thinks like that. 9-5 are the scariest numbers to me!

 

[LeeRosario]

this is not necessarily true. Although probably true for the three of us here, a lot of the old school mentality is that going to a university or trade school for recording is stupid. A lot of engineers also don't respect Full Sail students either, and that has to do with a varity of reasons. This is both a good thing and a bad thing. I do believe that just because you have a piece of paper you shouldn't get a cushy job getting paid $60,000 a year right out of school like so many jobs out there allow you to. But at the same time, if you get that piece of paper (which in the recording world hopefully means you have a basic/intermmediate understanding of recording too) then a studio shouldn't kick you out of the interview merely because you went to school for it and the interviewer didn't.
Today it's hard to get the training in the industry without going to school. So many studios don't want to bring an intern on and would prefer you to know something before coming in. And one of the best ways to get the training is to pay for school to get it. But if you DO get the training in school, don't get this mentality that you know everything there is to know and you can just walk into a studio and start running things. Mention the degree if someone asks where you got your training, but don't rely on it as much as lawyers do with their law degrees from Harvard. My boss asked me about my schooling, but I could have probably just as easily made up a school that I went to. He asked me what I knew more than anything and tried to see how he felt about my personality (which a lot of guys see as being more important than your training).

In short, don't think going to school is the only way to go. It certainly helps, if you are able to afford it...but just know that many people don't care about it. If you do go to school, do it for the training and the connections and not to say you got a degree.
-B

Joshua,


To add to this, and this might scare you...


You know how much of my "mixing" I learned from fullsail?










2%...Im dead serious. Don't get me wrong, it's a great school and it's a shortcut to sitting in front of an 88 input SSL console in one of the best studios on the east coast, but you sorta have to be inclined to meet the right people that are willing to pass on the knowledge.

The only formal training I got was how to set up the gear and run it responsibly and efficently. The artistic side of it, which is mixing, they leave up to you and your luck. They train you to be a technician and not an artist.

They can't, cause with so many different phiolosphies, how do you begin to teach the students how to mix? Unless you bring an Andy Wallace or Hugh Padgam, but that would put the school under since they would charge a rediculous amount. (I personally would love a lecture from Al Schmitt, but that's another story).

That's why they have "guest speakers", which really don't do much more than do puff pieces.


The *only* reason I got lucky into mixing was cause I got good at reverse engineering songs and then asking people how to achieve that with all the tools we have avaible. Plus keeping context ahead of technicality in a mix.


Which is partially why I hang out here so much. I get pleasure out of getting people up to date with advice.

The other part is so I can look cool and feel like a god! Haha, nah...just kidding.

But seriously, I hang out here strictly cause other forums are full of shall we say, "assholes". If I'm wrong on something (which happens to all of us), I'm treated respectfully here.


Therefore, I enjoy hanging out, even if I have gone a little beyond the homerecording world.

So they can formulate thier own theories on how to mix a song.

 

[Fletcher]

I personally would love a lecture from Al Schmitt

Drop a cigarette and burn a hole in his couch... something tells me you'll get a lecture you'll never forget

 

[6gun]

(I personally would love a lecture from Al Schmitt, but that's another story).

http://www.recordproduction.com/al_schmitt_video_interview.htm

Great thread, BTW.

 

[bennychico11]

Joshua,


To add to this, and this might scare you...


You know how much of my "mixing" I learned from fullsail?





2%...Im dead serious.

2%!??!!!??!?!?!!??

wow....you must have had some great teachers to get that much mixing done. I was lucky to get 1.5%


Full Sail offers training in the recording world...not the art. It sucks, but with so many students (and only a handful of SSLs) and such a high tuition cost, one-on-one time with a professional engineer just isn't going to happen. Just ask tons of questions and see if one of the teachers will mix something or set up a mic for you...and then just watch.
Anyway, just wanted to comment...I know the original poster isn't thinking about Full Sail

 

[peritus]

2%!??!!!??!?!?!!??

wow....you must have had some great teachers to get that much mixing done. I was lucky to get 1.5%


Full Sail offers training in the recording world...not the art. It sucks, but with so many students (and only a handful of SSLs) and such a high tuition cost, one-on-one time with a professional engineer just isn't going to happen. Just ask tons of questions and see if one of the teachers will mix something or set up a mic for you...and then just watch.
Anyway, just wanted to comment...I know the original poster isn't thinking about Full Sail

If I went to any schools it'd be one of these two... Otherwise, I'd have to bank a lot more cash to go further from home.. Cash which could be freed up for eating and such...

http://www.recordingworkshop.com/
http://www.icbcollege.com/

Edit: Unless I somehow got the money to try for Berklee...

 

[EleKtriKaz]

I'm actually currently attending the Conservatory of Recording Arts and Sciences out here in Arizona. I'm thoroughly enjoying it. Lots of great experience on gear that I would otherwise never get to touch.

Lee's comments about learning mixing from a school are pretty much accurate. I mean you really can't teach someone how to mix. It's a stylistic thing, and the teachers here are pretty sensitive to that. During a mix session the majority of them will preface what they're doing with something like, "This is just my style..." or "This is how I approach a mix..." which I really appreciate. And I have actually picked up some very useful things from some of them.

I would agree with the people who have said that these recording schools provide you with a technical background and foundation. That's why I decided to go to a recording school, for the technical instruction and experience. If I wasn't confident in my ability to work hard and be creative and artistic about it, I wouldn't have wasted the time or the money.

 

[Chris Shaeffer]

The recording school are good for 4 things, from what I understand:

1) Getting your hands on some fun toys... for a few minutes.

2) Helping the school pay for those fun toys

3) Blowing a LOT of cash for a piece of paper that *might* make you more valuable for that competitive, non-paying internship at a studio...

4) Giving you the opportunity to meet people in the industry and be your best possible self around them. (i.e. so they know what you know, as Fletcher said.)

People who figure out #4 are actually getting the only real value out of the recording school there is to be had.

Take care,
Chris

 

[Fletcher]

I'm actually currently attending the Conservatory of Recording Arts and Sciences out here in Arizona. I'm thoroughly enjoying it. Lots of great experience on gear that I would otherwise never get to touch.

As long as you understand that once you leave the campus ain't nobody going to be asking you to touch that stuff again for many [MANY] moons. If you decide on the career path of the "intern/general assistant-assistant-engineer" road it'll be a few years before you get to sit in the chair as a "first engineer" behind a big SSL. Now that doesn't mean some incompetent son of a bitch [like me] won't roll through the studio where you're working and tell you to run the computer while they work [I refuse to take the time to learn the software associate with the 9K desks... I don't work on them enough to bother remembering all the commands]... but running the computer and sitting in the chair are two entirely different realities.

The most important thing you can learn is how to listen, then apply that listening to an action that will create your desired result. Even more importantly it's know what NOT to do with the equipment so you can avoid painting yourself into a corner.

To quote David St. Hubbins... "it's a fine line between clever and stupid... just a little turnabout".

Peace.

 

[EleKtriKaz]

Good points Fletcher...and yes, that is exactly what I've prepared myself for. At least a year of coffee making, cleaning, food runs, etc...

I went to college for 4 years and got a finance degree, figured out I hated finance and really wanted to be an engineer. I'm in this one for the long haul. It's the career I've chosen for better or worse. So, I'm prepared to do whatever I need to.

I think that may be the place where audio schools get a bad rap. I think a lot of the kids go to these schools straight out of high school, which isn't necessarily bad. If you know what you want, go for it. But I think for a lot of them it's a way to avoid going to college or getting a "real" job. For me it's a little different. I'm not just trying this out. I've tried other things out, and this is it for me.

And whenever you roll through the studio Fletcher I'll be ready with the SSL commands...Go to Title Execute!, Cycle Drop-In Execute!, Play Mix From Here Execute!, etc...

 

[TuoKaerf]

And remember to "Rub that out".

My experience with recording school has been very positive. The teacher to student ratio is excellent, and the focus is mostly on hands on education. The instruction is top of the line, all of the instructors have extensive experience engineering/producing, and most of them have gold/platnium/Grammy award albums to their credits. Your first few quarters are the bare bones redundent signal flow and audio concepts stuff, and the classes after are almost all production based, focusing on mixing and producing well. I can book out the studios anytime I want after class hours, for whatever I want to do (be it school work or personal projects).