Ambient Sounds

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Erockrazor

Erockrazor

I mix in (2x) real-time
I was unsure whether I would be better off putting this in the Recording Techniques section or the Newbies section. So I suppose when in doubt , put it in the Newbie section.

Now as for my question. I have been listening to alot of songs and I cannot get a full sound with what I am recording. I feel that im missing ambient sound that should be filling in the gaps making my music more full. Im having a hard time describing what i want to describe. I feel like some background noise of some sort or just ANYTHING to fill in those cold and dark emptyness that I feel all of my mixes seem to compose. Does anyone have any tips on maybe capturing or using effects to create a good ambient sound. Something to fill in my mixes. Maybe a simple bass line of the root notes would fill it in well. Im recording acoustic and vocals mostly and none of my mixes are really cutting it even though I'm not really that unhappy with my individual instruments sound.

I'm having a hard time wording what I really want. Hopefully I can learn what i really want. You can listen to a few of my songs at www.myspace.com/asleepatawake1 . Maybe anyone would be able to help me take a step forward as to fill in what I feel is alot of empty space.

Any help is more than appreciated , I'm at a lull within my recordings and any kick starts would be great.

thanks , eric
 
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are you recording everything at once or each track separately?
 
I haven;t had a chance to listen to your stuff, but here are my initial thoughts on your question.

First, filling gaps in a with sound sounds like the wrong path to me, one of the signs of a good mix is to use the space in there to create dynamic intensity and make your mix pop out nicely to the listener. if you want some electronicy sine wave stuff or other voices in the background to add an effect, that is different, but space between parts is not bad. For an example of somehtign i htought was done well, i was listening to the newest cake album the other day and noticing they have some funny sounding noises (beeping boopingt, like a syth with a vah pedal) going on through the mix, subtle with all the instuments, but then the other tracks fade, and it comes out and kind of ties everything together. But note, when done properly, there is a purpose to adding this stuff. If done poorly you can add a lot of mud and such.

one rule should be to have only 2-4 at most different things going on up front in your mix at a time. Often less is more here. if you start adding keyboard lines that contrast guitar, and the bass and drums aren't in sync and the vocals are providing a different melodic line, and then you add some other noise in the background and so on, you end up making the ear confused as it sorts all these different items out.

So if you add stuff in for contrast and complexity, drop other things out at the same time, with faders or mute. Or have some of the instruments play in sync instead of with different voices. If you want to bring in a new keyboard line , you might want the drums bass and guitart to play the same rythym sections to give it room. your milage might vary .

Now as to your actual question, it almost sound like you are describing making a BIG sounding mix, or big sounding parts. Guitars are often double tracked and panned to do this sort of thing, and other instruments as well. Trying taking the part you have and retracking them as closely as possible-it takes some talent to play them in sync- and use different effects/amps/tones to have them play the same line,but have differnt sounds. Put one hard left onr hard right and bring them up together and it should make them sound much bigger.

Bass can do alot too, keep as much of your mix in the higher end of hte frequency specturm and let the bass sit as alone at it can (with the kick usually, but hopefully not at the asme frequency as the kick) and make sure it sounds good in the mix. I find a good bass part tracked well really adds to the emotional impact, kind of hits you in the gut. This might be about arranging the part as much as recording.
 
daav , very nice response. very imformative.

thanks for bearing with my unclear question. I think i do just want a bigger sound to my mix. That might be more what im trying to describe. I think double tracking my acoustic might sound pretty cool. maybe i can use both of my acoustics and pan them opposite and see what comes out of it. i wish i could of maybe asked my question a little more clear. Im tracking my stuff one at a time to try and achieve the best sonic quality. Im really excited right now to try and record the multi track of the same part haha.

If anyone else has some information that can help me as daav already has , bring it on!

thanks alot guys,eric
 
Erockrazor said:
daav , very nice response. very imformative.

thanks for bearing with my unclear question. I think i do just want a bigger sound to my mix. That might be more what im trying to describe. I think double tracking my acoustic might sound pretty cool. maybe i can use both of my acoustics and pan them opposite and see what comes out of it. i wish i could of maybe asked my question a little more clear. Im tracking my stuff one at a time to try and achieve the best sonic quality. Im really excited right now to try and record the multi track of the same part haha.

If anyone else has some information that can help me as daav already has , bring it on!

thanks alot guys,eric
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Another standard techique, probabaly not quite as good as double tracking it to take the same track and duplicate it with a slight delay, and pan them to taste, usually the dry track to one side and the other coming in from the other, this tends to open up the track and make it sound wider.

Similiarly, higher frequencies tend to sound "up" in a mix while lower frequencies sound lower. if you are using two acoustics, you might put a capo on one and/or use EQ (if necessary) to cut the bass on that track, while cutting the highs on the other.

Try out the mixing engineers handbook if you can, there is a nice listing of some of the standard uses of delay, EQ, panning and adding space to your mix. For isntance with delays, you can take the beat per minute of the song, and coordinate a delay in miliseconds to be in ration with the songs timing, so that it does not stand out as airy as much as takes care of that openess thing.
Do a search on here for "eq map" somewhere there was a thread where someone posted a bunch of info about what boosts and cuts suit various instruments. By notching out the key frequncies on some and boosting a bit on others in the same spot, you can really allow those various tracks to "stick" in their spot in the mix.

What mics and chain are you using anyway? I like the (cheap as hell) MXL 603s in XY configurations on acoustic, but lately i have been using a single LDC as well deopendig onthe guitar.

Last thing never forget the importance of dealing wiht your room. If you are recording in a typical bedroom for instance, you could be really challenged to eimliiate some of the thinness that may be from the reflexions in the room. Look into bass traps, diffusion, etc if you haven't. if none of that works, try the closet trick- stick the mic inside a closet full of clothes (clothes = acoustic treatment) facing out, play or sing facing the closet, the clothes will prevent most of the reflections from coming from behind and you should get a cleaner track.

good luck,
Daav
 
just a small thing to add:
tuning. make sure you play with a tuner. some of your notes, particularly in The Number of Times, are out of tune. Work, as well, on your rhythms. Especially on the guitar that is contrasting your rhythm guitar. It sounds too rigid right now.
Also, work on the reverb. I like subtle reverb and some of your stuff is too wet. Work on massaging the reverb track along with the dry tracks...play with shorter decay times.

if none of that works, try the closet trick- stick the mic inside a closet full of clothes (clothes = acoustic treatment) facing out, play or sing facing the closet, the clothes will prevent most of the reflections from coming from behind and you should get a cleaner track.
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this I have to disagree with...and I say that because most stuff I hear recorded in closets sounds very muffled. Clothes may help reduce the flutter echos or high frequency reflections, but then you end up with too much bass/mids. And then it sounds like it was recorded in a closet. From listening I don't hear any huge problems with too much HF reflections in his songs.
Although, bass traps and diffusion in a larger room I would agree with.
 
daav said:
What mics and chain are you using anyway? I like the (cheap as hell) MXL 603s in XY configurations on acoustic, but lately i have been using a single LDC as well deopendig onthe guitar.
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Im recording Mxl 990 on 12th fret about 6 inches away into a dmp3 into a audiphile 2496. no monitors though which would help me hear my mix alot.that would help me hear the effects better as to maybe why ive put too much reverb on the guitar. Thats my christmas present along with a firepod if im completely spoiled. The dmp3 and audiophile 2496 dont work well together but thats besides the point.



As far as the tuning goes I can agree. We need to invest in a more expensive tuner id say. We have 2 like ... 10 dollar tuners and all of our songs are in different tunings. So a good tuner would help our oddly tuned strings sound a little better. Lets not get into the vocals , cause theres no way im tuning them haha. :mad:




Thanks for your help , if you have more to say please do. Thanks , eric
 
nah, you don't need to spend too much on tuners. Just get a good chromatic tuner that listens off of a mic'd pitch or that you can plug into.
 
I listened to "Getting Carried Away". You have a good voice man and I think you have a good ear for production. I would guess the "ambience" you're looking for will come with better equipment/environment; the arrangement itself sounds just fine to me. Sounds a lot like the group "I Can Make a Mess Like Nobody's Business." Nice work. :)
 
What I usually do when I feel something is 'missing', is I usually double-up the tracks.

For example, instead of having just one rhythm guitar track, I'll record it twice and pan one left, and the other right. It really makes a difference. The same thing can be done with vocals.

Also, a bass line can really help to fill it out. Even if it's just a simple one playing the root note of the chords.

Or maybe EQ the guitar tracks and give them some more bass.

I never really knew how important a bass player was until I started recording. (No offense to you bass players).
 
Thanks alot easlern , I actually like " I can make a mess like nobodys business " so I guess thats a compliment well taken. Also thanks alot for the voice thing too , its not often that I get any recognition for my voice and really its the only thing im "insecure" about. Im thinking of taking vocal lessons cause I think I'm fairly pitchy and lack breath. But again , Thank you.

Danny .. apparently this doubling track thing is done a little more readily than i originally had thought. Definitly something I'm willing to give a try. I cant wait to get actual monitors in my set up too. I feel like my mixing right now is being so restricted. Like I want to learn more , I want to listen to the right mix , but my PC speakers arent letting me develop my listening skills. Im thinking for my next mix , maybe just throwing in a simple bass line to try and fill it up. Just the root notes to back up. Maybe I'm lacking anything in the low end which isnt holding my mix together. Theres so many possibities.

And even more good suggestions from you guys :)

thanks , eric


PS. I'm getting a server too busy notice every time i try to post. It's 5 in the morning guys(eastern time). I'm not the only one who doesnt have a life? Most normal people use this time for what some call "sleeping". :)
 
Post this in the MP3 Mixing Clinic.
that's where folk go to listen, comment & suggest.
 
Erockrazor said:
I was unsure whether I would be better off putting this in the Recording Techniques section or the Newbies section. So I suppose when in doubt , put it in the Newbie section.

Now as for my question. I have been listening to alot of songs and I cannot get a full sound with what I am recording. I feel that im missing ambient sound that should be filling in the gaps making my music more full. Im having a hard time describing what i want to describe. I feel like some background noise of some sort or just ANYTHING to fill in those cold and dark emptyness that I feel all of my mixes seem to compose. Does anyone have any tips on maybe capturing or using effects to create a good ambient sound. Something to fill in my mixes. Maybe a simple bass line of the root notes would fill it in well. Im recording acoustic and vocals mostly and none of my mixes are really cutting it even though I'm not really that unhappy with my individual instruments sound.

I'm having a hard time wording what I really want. Hopefully I can learn what i really want. You can listen to a few of my songs at www.myspace.com/asleepatawake1 . Maybe anyone would be able to help me take a step forward as to fill in what I feel is alot of empty space.

Any help is more than appreciated , I'm at a lull within my recordings and any kick starts would be great.

thanks , eric
Click to expand...

When I listened to "number of times", I heard a cello part underneath. Slow sustained notes in the verses, and simple, choppy bow work in the chorus part. Just a thought. Know anyone who could add such a part?

Otto
 
ofajen said:
When I listened to "number of times", I heard a cello part underneath. Slow sustained notes in the verses, and simple, choppy bow work in the chorus part. Just a thought. Know anyone who could add such a part?
Click to expand...


Nobody in particular , but how bad would going MIDI be in these types of situations. Do many people use MIDI for backing noises and effects, etc. Ive been thinking of getting a little midi keyboard and seeing what noises I can get from it but i think thats a whole other beast at this point. Does anyone think trying to go midi for some of these applications would be a bad idea. Though micing a real cello would be ideal of course , id also need a good enough cello player. So theres two things I dont have. I know it was just a suggestion but how would you guys feel about maybe trying to apply MIDI sounds for backing parts? Maybe another possible route. VERY GOOD SUGGESTIONS GUYS. This is honestly my most interactive thread I've ever created and I'm so lucky to be having you guys help me out. Thank you very much. :)
 
okay i listened to your tracks and i agree with others comments. The main thing i want to chime in on is midi instruments/synths. Generally without alot of work it wont sound real, and by working with a real celloist you can write a convincing and interesting part that suits the instrument. Just ask around, most peopel will feel flattered that you want thier help :D
Good song though, keep it up :)
 
I'm kind of upset that MIDI apparently isnt the best root. I kinda wish that it would be able to get the job done. Of course the real cello part would sound much better if it were a real cello recording. Maybe I'll get my friend who plays upright bass to lay down a few tracks for some songs. Problem is that he's ridiculous and probably would make us sound bad at our instruments haha. But awesome suggestions guys.

I dont think im ready to give up on MIDI. I still feel like , even though you can tell the sound is digital for many things , it might not be bad to have the option. I dont know , maybe im just stubborn and dont want to give up hope what appears to make things much easier. Thanks alot guys. :)
 
I've used MIDI several times for this purpose.

You can get some realistic sounds by using Reason, or other VSTi's (Virtual Instruments). My friend has Reason 3 and he made me a string section for my song that sounded very good. I think he layered 3 different string sounds together and it sounded very realistic.

But if you want the best sound possible, I would get a VSTi dedicated to that instrument.

They have them for cello, choirs, pianos, etc. Most aren't cheap though.
 
Im thinking of trying to get a cheap midi controller and see what i can do with it and just "fiddle" around(i dont know if i should of put that pun there). I have a violin too but I by no means am a good violinist. I wish I were. I played it growing up but never really excelled with it. Would of came to good use right now. But then again it got me playing guitar so I'm happy that i did it. I might try recording one of our newer songs tomorrow and ill maybe trying double tracking it then putting a bass line over it to try and fill it up. If all goes well I will post the recording and let you guys know about it , maybe with your help there will be noticable progress between my last sound , maybe not. But either way I will have learned some new techniques and this thread has really helped me out. Thanks so much guys.
 
There are a lot of so called folktronica bands like The Postal Service, Caribou, or artists like Four Tet and Boards of Canada that use acoustic instruments with electronic touches. If you listen to that music they are not trying to use "realistic" sounding instruments but deliberately pretty weird stuff...If you want real sounds probably better to use a real cellist as someone said above.
 
Here are a few thoughts

1. I'd add a little bit (more) reverb, especially to the vocals. That will give a sense of space. I know the dry thing is hip/cool, but it lacks ambience.

2. Experiment with different miking distances. A mic right up on the strings (or up to your lips) will sound very different than a mic 2-3 feet back. Miking further back = more ambience.

3. MIDI is fine for little beeps and boops to keep things interesting. Try to mix them in at a low level so that the listener may not hear them at first, but will notice them on repeated listens. If you can play the notes in with a keyboard, you'll get a little more natural/human feel. There are tons of VSTi's out there for just about any instrument you can imagine and many of them are free/shareware.
 
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