AKG Perception P220 → Neumann U87 5-min Mod

[CoolCat]

this is interesting, in a mod kind of way. changing a cap is more techy- but using EQ is easier but not built-in like a capacitor change.

a third option is adding a Foam piece which protects the capsule and head basket from spittle and drops and P-pops.., but has a "filter" effect.

Neumann WS 87 foam windscreen causes only a slight 3 dB attenuation at 15 kHz in the upper frequency range. I

Not sure how a HR would detect such a minimal freq drop? But could a variety of Foam covers add different Freq drops?
Is Neumanns $70 better than Amazon $10?

Reminds me the Shure KSM US series, SOS review was correct in the KSM 27 had a excessive P-Pop issue, but adding a Foam screen, turned it into a much better mic.
I confirmed this and it was abnormally noticeable on that mic, the KSM 44 and 32, not so much as they didn't have the issue to begin with.
another - .foam windscreens can do wonders for taming a harsh high end of a cheap chinese LDC. More so than any electronic mods to the mic. I've compared a Joly modded V67g with an unmodded V67g with a foam windscreen. I actually thought the stock V67g when used with a windscreen sounded a little smoother than the Joly modded V67g using a standard pop filter.

What does anyone think about adding Foam Screens?
Some say no way....rot can cause problems as this picture shows.

 

[TalismanRich]

I think it depends on the type of foam used. Open foam vs closed cell foam, the basic material used to make the foam, that all makes a difference.

Good polyturethane is pretty robust. Polyethylene is cheap. I've had some that tore apart in under a year. If the material breaks down, it can leave particles that get on the diaphragm. Reticulated foam is the highest grade, but most expensive.

Unfortunately, very few companies tell what the cover is made from. The two with my 20 years old Studio Projects mics are still good. Some covers I got for my pencil mics ripped apart quickly and went in the trash. I put some foam in a box to hold a recorder and it's still going after years. Some of the packing foam I've received will crumble if you just rub it.

What you don't want to do is leave the cover over the mic in storage. Put them in a separate box, and check it before you put it on.

 

[CoolCat]

Neumann wants $70, China- $9 is unknown what it is....Shure $15, AKG , Senn (probably made in China) seems similar, maybe a solid "middle" price with quality or is it brand-name placebo again?
...I could see having some foam to protect the capsule from human and bumps and hits, and dust but the rot of the foam is a concern.
Disposing of it routinely not a big cash hit preferred.

 

[CoolCat]

Im about out of time with the U87ai,,,45day return or pay the man.
2015-2017 era. Circuit #6. No issue with the capsule at all, but it did have breath-test issues on the front capsule at first. Its got a small dent in headbasketa and a wierd dot/in the paint on the body w/box....$1689. All original with blue wax seal still there.

Put both into a Aphex 207 dual preamp this time, 87ai and P420. (not the GraceDesign)
Did a 87ai- 420 stock and a 420-mod.
I definitely think the mods smoothed the top some.

Being deeper into the rabbit hole..my ears could hear some difference and urge to add EQ more was tempting/splitting hairs.
after being tired of eqing I popped in a KSM32 and it was imo, closer. No EQ needed. Gain needed for the 32.
Playback were BD880 250ohm with GraceDesign headphone amp.

I might post some snips of sound tracks, but the big elephant in the room is the Neumann capsule age, condition. When someone says theire 87 is X sound, its like which one, which year, what condition, 87i or 87ai, ....no telling. I do think this 2nd 87ai testdrive is better than the other one, but maybe its the dirty capsule smooths it some?
Would the new P420 sound closer to a brand new brighter U87ai? Would a older dirtier P420 capsule smooth out a bit with some years on it?

Im leaning to return the 87. Between the P420 and my KSM32, I don't really "need" this mic.
$1689 for a "Fair Condition" 87ai.. is not a good deal, if you have to swap the capsule or have it cleaned. And to clean the capsule you lose the blue wax Neumann seal stamp.
hmmm?
tough call.... for $1900 a person could get a 87 with a great capsule, no dents, no paint divots, etc...

 

[TalismanRich]

That's a tough call. I always have reservations when it's a "I can hear a difference" versus "I can hear a big improvement". I have bought guitars that had a different sound, but really weren't better to play (setup, neck comfort, etc). I've bought guitars that sounded good but different but are a JOY to play... they just fit. And my preferences have changed over the past 20 years.

When I turned 50, I ordered a Heritage H157, their take on a LP custom. It 9+lbs, sound just fine, plays nicely. But the past 10 years, the weight just is too much. It gets short playing time. I used it a few years ago and after about 4 or 5 songs, I had to take a break. My shoulder hurt, and as it pressed on the nerve, my left hand started to tingle! Last year, I bought an H-530. Hollow body P90, their take on the ES330. I can easily stand for 2 hours with that one... under 7 lbs, similar neck feel to the 157, but a different sound. I like the bigger shape as well. Better? Worse? Neither, just different. I play that one a LOT now. My Melancon Tele is light as a feather. I'm not as big a fan of the tele sound... but it's fun to play. I've pulled it out more often now. The Vint 54 Strat has been sitting in the case for almost a year. Not as much fun as the Mel.

It's somewhat the same with mics. The NT1 is usually the first to come out, then the MK300. Now the AKG is moving up in the order. I like the sound, it just seems to work. We're looking at 10% of the cost of your U87. In my equation of diminishing returns, the U87 probably wouldn't even be 5 times better. I could buy a pair of UT 87Twins, bank $400 and from what I read, be right in the window to the U87!

Call me practical, but there's a reason I drive a Taurus and not a Mercedes. The extra $60,000 will pay for a lot of other stuff that has more value to me.... new furnace or AC unit, new carpeting, LOTS of golf balls.

If the U87 is pulling in clients who are dropping $100/hour to track at your studio, then it's a different story. If I'm cutting tracks and selling 100 a month for $1 a pop, it's probably worth it, although probably a bit more of an ego buy. The people are buying the song, not the 1.2dB difference at 7.2kHz between the P420 and the U87, but if it inspires you, then yeah, go for it. If money is no object, it's a moot point.

 

[TalismanRich]

... but don't listen to me... I'm just a guitar player!

 

[PorterhouseMusic]

That's a tough call. I always have reservations when it's a "I can hear a difference" versus "I can hear a big improvement". I have bought guitars that had a different sound, but really weren't better to play (setup, neck comfort, etc). I've bought guitars that sounded good but different but are a JOY to play... they just fit. And my preferences have changed over the past 20 years.

When I turned 50, I ordered a Heritage H157, their take on a LP custom. It 9+lbs, sound just fine, plays nicely. But the past 10 years, the weight just is too much. It gets short playing time. I used it a few years ago and after about 4 or 5 songs, I had to take a break. My shoulder hurt, and as it pressed on the nerve, my left hand started to tingle! Last year, I bought an H-530. Hollow body P90, their take on the ES330. I can easily stand for 2 hours with that one... under 7 lbs, similar neck feel to the 157, but a different sound. I like the bigger shape as well. Better? Worse? Neither, just different. I play that one a LOT now. My Melancon Tele is light as a feather. I'm not as big a fan of the tele sound... but it's fun to play. I've pulled it out more often now. The Vint 54 Strat has been sitting in the case for almost a year. Not as much fun as the Mel.

It's somewhat the same with mics. The NT1 is usually the first to come out, then the MK300. Now the AKG is moving up in the order. I like the sound, it just seems to work. We're looking at 10% of the cost of your U87. In my equation of diminishing returns, the U87 probably wouldn't even be 5 times better. I could buy a pair of UT 87Twins, bank $400 and from what I read, be right in the window to the U87!

Call me practical, but there's a reason I drive a Taurus and not a Mercedes. The extra $60,000 will pay for a lot of other stuff that has more value to me.... new furnace or AC unit, new carpeting, LOTS of golf balls.

If the U87 is pulling in clients who are dropping $100/hour to track at your studio, then it's a different story. If I'm cutting tracks and selling 100 a month for $1 a pop, it's probably worth it, although probably a bit more of an ego buy. The people are buying the song, not the 1.2dB difference at 7.2kHz between the P420 and the U87, but if it inspires you, then yeah, go for it. If money is no object, it's a moot point.

I mentioned in that preferred vocal mic thread that the WA67 was my go-to for my voice. They now cost $1000 new. When they were still $900 new - I got mine for $600 through a fluke. There's a comparison video of the WA67 and the Neumann U67 - I pretty much can't tell the difference. That comparison may be bogus - and it may not even matter if the U67 and WA67 sound anything alike. But a new U67 costs $8300!! Holy shit. There's no way that there's $7000+ value with the Neumann. Of course - I have never tried one myself - but I ain't buyin it. Literally.

 

[CoolCat]

Ok so I made clips , short clips for playback, rabbit hole listening.
87ai vs P420 stock
87ai vs P420 mod
87ai vs KSM32

just a line or two voice. with ss's etc.... to hear and repeat and dissect.

then I did a fourth, I copied the snippet of the 87ai vs P420mod.....this time on the 420mod, I pulled up the plugin best EQ I have, Tracks or something....with presets. Then I went through all these presets clicking on them all...and Bingo! one preset...nailed the U87ai so close it was a "there it is".
listened to the 4 qty snippets, and would say this is getting finshed and completed.

and Mic Assasin says the same thing, Im not doing anything new or discovery here, more Im just confirming in agreement theres slight EQ, as Rob mentioned early on about changing capacitors, "isn't it like eqing"......yes and no...when a mic does ith without EQ, its great for less effort.. lol

87ai vs P420 w/EQ....its like 99% there from 95%...and again beat the dead horse about "capsule conditions" and matching. Or the miniscule HeadBasket all these 2% adjustments.

TalismanRich..the money thing means more when its $5000 or even $1800, that's more a shoppers delimma Money Business.
Do you get 1qty used 87ai or....buy a bunch of other stuff....or spend it on car repairs...which is how I convinced myself to buy/try 87 again...I was quoted $2500+ for a car repair from Dealer and fixed it for $25, and help from the Tow truck dude, it was a common bushing....Mind Game stuff...saved money!! go buy a mic!! lol

 

[TalismanRich]

When my AC unit went south back in 2020, it was $5K. You can't just patch a 30 yr old unit. $1600 vs $160 is 29% of the AC purchase price, and I guarantee you I get way more use out of that AC unit.

In June I had to replace 4 tires... $1100. I use those tires WAY more than I would use a used U87. Paid for and still have extra $$$.

I don't buy into the "buy the best, you can always get your money back" line. Somebody took a $2000 bath on that U87. That alone would cover about half of the property taxes on my house this year. Better to have the house than a mic I use a few times a year.

As I said, I'm driving a 10 yr old Taurus. I could buy a nice S500 Mercedes for $120,000. Or cheap out with a E350 for $80,000 and haul the same groceries and golf clubs that I do today. But that Taurus has been reliable, and is comfortable. I can drive 6 hours, stop and fill up with gas, and walk into Bojangles and get lunch (Used to do that monthly for years!)

I'm not necessarily cheap, and I like good stuff. I just find that there's usually a secondary path to a given level of quality. As you said "its like 99% there from 95%...and again beat the dead horse about "capsule conditions" and matching." Buy 2 more AKGs and mod them. If one goes dead in 3 years, toss it and you're still sitting on a thousand bills and recording.

... at least until Selena, David Gilmour and Drake stop by. Then go ahead and spring for a new one. Sweetwater will have it there tomorrow morning, just in time for that next session.

 

[TalismanRich]

One last thing... Julian Krause did a "conversion" video to make an SM57 or 58 (I forget which) sound like an SM7b with an EQ curve. He gave the frequencies and Q values so you could make an SM7b preset to load into your plugin when you wanted that sound.

It sounded darn good to me. I wonder if Michael Jackson would have heard a huge difference when he did Thriller. Would Thriller have been a flop if they used that mic instead?

But we'll continue this discussion again after I win the $600,000,000 Powerball tomorrow. I might just change my mind!

(If I win, I promise to send you a whole box of new U87s! Deal?)

 

[CoolCat]

lol..yes the PowerBall...600 million.... all views of money and percentages would change...
hmmm? 87 I or 87ai's?....used or new? hmmm? used can be like old jeans broken in and comfortable relic like. ? I would still ponder it all and probably never be resolved ....thanks for the offer though.

What if you finally bought a U47 Mint from Paul McCartneys studio then if you found out you prefer the WA67 more? would you ask Paul for a refund? or just sell it and pay fees of Reverb , and yes now you need to give Trillio all your SS# and childrens birthdates and your account access passwords to sell on Reverb (sarcasm kind of)...

Reverbs turned into such a unfriendly site. Im enjoying Guitar Center , Used Gear...45 days. They are having sales 10% on USED....so if I return this $1689 87 can I get 10% off? Return it and then hold onto it and ask the cashier that I want to buy it again. hmm?

add: Guitar Center was contacted and they gave me 10% off and the tax deducted of the 10%! ....really great Guitar Center help!...so $1520 for the U87ai.