Papanate
Well-known member
The GC info doesn't tell what year it is - there was a variance between years - and the original ones mostly need fixing.
CoolCat
Well-known member
This one checked out ok too. I think the serial number popped up in the receipt.
CoolCat
Well-known member
yeah Papanate...Circuit #6 again, 2015 or later. (no piggyback board) back to the Jfet.
Seems the SN "170,000 range" puts it right there too around 2015 or 2019 range. I guess they've sold a few of these!
initial day 1, was making sure it wasn't a Chinese scam, but then plugging it in , I notice a small dent in the screen and a weird little chip, like someone touched it up or something? very small...the booklets didn't come with it....so its a USED - "Great Shape" .....not Mint, not Excellent.....better than Good and a lot better than Fair.
However when I gave it the breath test the mic stopped making sound....when it dried it was fine, with a pop filter it was fine....after 30 minutes it seemed to pass the breath test.
The back side capusle didn't show any weird issues. Again I don't want to break the cool blue wax N seal.....so I used magnifying glass and Brite light and didn't see any damage in the capsule. to be continued!?
I breath testted the P420 it didn't have any issues.
Seems the SN "170,000 range" puts it right there too around 2015 or 2019 range. I guess they've sold a few of these!
initial day 1, was making sure it wasn't a Chinese scam, but then plugging it in , I notice a small dent in the screen and a weird little chip, like someone touched it up or something? very small...the booklets didn't come with it....so its a USED - "Great Shape" .....not Mint, not Excellent.....better than Good and a lot better than Fair.
However when I gave it the breath test the mic stopped making sound....when it dried it was fine, with a pop filter it was fine....after 30 minutes it seemed to pass the breath test.
The back side capusle didn't show any weird issues. Again I don't want to break the cool blue wax N seal.....so I used magnifying glass and Brite light and didn't see any damage in the capsule. to be continued!?
I breath testted the P420 it didn't have any issues.
CoolCat
Well-known member
I spent some time tonight and got to the actual modded- P420.
one thing in comparison was the U87ai setup then plugged in the P420, changing nothing else....and it was right there, same volume, very very nice imo. I liked this mic stock, I like it with the mod. Again the output is near identical of the 87ai output. Shouldn't be a surprise I guess as they copied the U87ai circuit.
Why tests can be a waste, technically, is the thing with Mono channels when I thought the sounds were maybe a bit different , the proximity can have such a big effect....being closer/more bass....a little away/less bass=more mid/hi...so anyway. I just moved on.
Anyway, Im sure there's a bunch of 87 copy's and circuit clones and capsules similar to the 87, but the P420 is one for sure, a great sounding mic for $149 too!
That's where the paralysis of the mind starts , the comparing cost of the two but that's off topic of the thread..lol
Im not doubting the mod improves the P420, that's a given, its shown in the DIY charts...... but the P420 sounds really nice without it too.
Some Comp and EQ is a much bigger change. The cap is only hitting the hi freq, subtle smoothing, my 2 cents. If I was buying Used between a Modded or Non Modded I'd probably get the Modded one. Like Rob said above, EQ works too.
Ran the two mics through a few different preamps, they both hang in there in similar fashions, what works for the 87 works for the 420...vice versa.
not knocking Neumann, its a heritage thing, well earned legacy, a mic everyone's copying....
one thing in comparison was the U87ai setup then plugged in the P420, changing nothing else....and it was right there, same volume, very very nice imo. I liked this mic stock, I like it with the mod. Again the output is near identical of the 87ai output. Shouldn't be a surprise I guess as they copied the U87ai circuit.
Why tests can be a waste, technically, is the thing with Mono channels when I thought the sounds were maybe a bit different , the proximity can have such a big effect....being closer/more bass....a little away/less bass=more mid/hi...so anyway. I just moved on.
Anyway, Im sure there's a bunch of 87 copy's and circuit clones and capsules similar to the 87, but the P420 is one for sure, a great sounding mic for $149 too!
That's where the paralysis of the mind starts , the comparing cost of the two but that's off topic of the thread..lol
Im not doubting the mod improves the P420, that's a given, its shown in the DIY charts...... but the P420 sounds really nice without it too.
Some Comp and EQ is a much bigger change. The cap is only hitting the hi freq, subtle smoothing, my 2 cents. If I was buying Used between a Modded or Non Modded I'd probably get the Modded one. Like Rob said above, EQ works too.
Ran the two mics through a few different preamps, they both hang in there in similar fashions, what works for the 87 works for the 420...vice versa.
not knocking Neumann, its a heritage thing, well earned legacy, a mic everyone's copying....
rob aylestone
Moderator
One question on the box. I thought the real Neumanns all had tongue and groove corners, but I see many now where the wood stain does not reveal the interlocking? Have Neumann changed to a simpler to make box? The Thomann £120 Neumann box now seems to be different?
Attachments
CoolCat
Well-known member
this one isn't a new one, 2015, but it has the dovetail and the little tiny print sticker with the serial number on it. and there's the Neumann label on the top that's there but dark on dark wood. I think the previous one I tried had the same everything, it was newer 2022.
both the boxes Ive had here 2015 and 2022 had the dovetail joints. $128 but wont have the serial number sticker.
also the body called Tube per Neumann sells for $220 or so, if someones is dented or scratched. This one has a weird spot in paint? Cant really see the tiny ding in the head basket.
isn't most copy-clones going after the old U87ai, with low 8mv/pa sensitivity, 48volts to capsule, not 60volts....? so it makes the AKG P420 interesting as it copied the 87AI, 28mv/pa.
off topic, of LionKings thread about the AKG momd....but you ever had a capsule short out with the Breath Test? its really interesting....but can a capsule last another 20yrs if its cared for and not cough on or whatever? the back diaphragm is fine, the front can be "waterfall or collapsed?" its called if you really have it moist , breath ...which I never do, but Im part tech-head so taking it apart and cleaning the capsule sounds fun...
both the boxes Ive had here 2015 and 2022 had the dovetail joints. $128 but wont have the serial number sticker.
also the body called Tube per Neumann sells for $220 or so, if someones is dented or scratched. This one has a weird spot in paint? Cant really see the tiny ding in the head basket.
isn't most copy-clones going after the old U87ai, with low 8mv/pa sensitivity, 48volts to capsule, not 60volts....? so it makes the AKG P420 interesting as it copied the 87AI, 28mv/pa.
off topic, of LionKings thread about the AKG momd....but you ever had a capsule short out with the Breath Test? its really interesting....but can a capsule last another 20yrs if its cared for and not cough on or whatever? the back diaphragm is fine, the front can be "waterfall or collapsed?" its called if you really have it moist , breath ...which I never do, but Im part tech-head so taking it apart and cleaning the capsule sounds fun...
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CoolCat
Well-known member
looking at pictures there's different dovetails too, some seem to have more and smaller, or fewer larger dovetails. The colors shift around too over the years.
the foam and latches have a look, but I don't know? The engraved symbol on the top wood is probably the main thing. The latches and hinges don't use screws either, they are blades and pounded into the wood.
I wouldn't be surprised if they have different variations of boxes over the decades.
CoolCat
Well-known member
Spent a few hours comparing U87ai and the P420-m (m for mod)...in short, the P420 did well in performing like the U87ai.
Also was wondering what they sound like in various preamps, and as some say, "you need to do both sounds same take" so a couple dual preamps were used.
preamps: Clean-Interface preamps, Clean Grace m101, Transformer isa403, Hybrid - discrete/Tube aphex207, Tube- Art MPAII, ...
at the end used the full/channel strip with "everything on...EQ...cpm..Desser..limiter" , for a "sound like a record" mode, and this also showed a very similar sound of the P420 and U87ai. It also sounded a lot better than clean!
Miniscule differences? at times I thought the P420 was a little more clarity, maybe because its brand new, but on other preamps and takes, it was identical to the 87.
Clicking away on DAW ....sometimes there might be a difference heard, but its pretty small, maybe volume, proximity. Overall the sensitivity/ volume levels were exact, the Sssss's same, and interchangeable.
Its kind of mind boggling, as ones $149 new with shockmount, the other costs 10x used, or 30x's for New and they sound so similar.
Of course the cheaper one copied the Neumann in everything but the body....the Neumanns more attractive, its the famous one, everyone's copying and will hold its value.
I have to decide do I really need that? for a small hobby HR for fun, a person can get a lot of stuff for $1600+.
that's my 2 cents..on the P420 modded, amazing sound!
Also was wondering what they sound like in various preamps, and as some say, "you need to do both sounds same take" so a couple dual preamps were used.
preamps: Clean-Interface preamps, Clean Grace m101, Transformer isa403, Hybrid - discrete/Tube aphex207, Tube- Art MPAII, ...
at the end used the full/channel strip with "everything on...EQ...cpm..Desser..limiter" , for a "sound like a record" mode, and this also showed a very similar sound of the P420 and U87ai. It also sounded a lot better than clean!
Miniscule differences? at times I thought the P420 was a little more clarity, maybe because its brand new, but on other preamps and takes, it was identical to the 87.
Clicking away on DAW ....sometimes there might be a difference heard, but its pretty small, maybe volume, proximity. Overall the sensitivity/ volume levels were exact, the Sssss's same, and interchangeable.
Its kind of mind boggling, as ones $149 new with shockmount, the other costs 10x used, or 30x's for New and they sound so similar.
Of course the cheaper one copied the Neumann in everything but the body....the Neumanns more attractive, its the famous one, everyone's copying and will hold its value.
I have to decide do I really need that? for a small hobby HR for fun, a person can get a lot of stuff for $1600+.
that's my 2 cents..on the P420 modded, amazing sound!
LionKing
New member
I usually make a habit of putting my microphones back in their original boxes after use, and I regularly replace the silica gel packets inside to keep the humidity under control. So far, I haven't experienced any moisture-related issues with the diaphragms using this method. Hopefully it helps keep the capsules healthy for many years!
And thanks a lot for sharing all this information, especially your comparison between the U87 AI and the modified P420, as well as the tips for identifying genuine vs. counterfeit microphones.
Since I don't own a U87 AI myself, your real-world comparison gives me another useful reference point and makes me feel more confident about the results of the P420 modification. It's always valuable to have another direct comparison to add to the information already shared in this thread.
I also really appreciate the information about identifying genuine and counterfeit microphones. I buy quite a lot of used microphones online, so these tips are particularly useful to me.
When buying used, I tend to be extra cautious with Shure, Sennheiser, and Neumann. Without a pretty good eye for spotting fakes, it can be very easy to end up with a “problem child.”
Many of the counterfeit microphones I've come across seem to originate from China, and the exterior appearance and build quality of these fakes seem to be getting more and more convincing. There are even counterfeit versions of the sE Electronics DM1, a small portable preamp. That really surprised me.
The counterfeit market is getting surprisingly sophisticated, so information like this is extremely valuable to people buying used gear.
This whole thread seems to be getting more and more interesting!
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CoolCat
Well-known member
Read a lot about the U87ai ripoffs... so these days I use Guitar Center, UsedGear, w 45 day returns only.... to deal with this fake-era we are in.
Learning is part of the fun at times, so the U87ai, most copied, most bootlegged, has a lot of info available..."the gurus" seem to have put a lot of great info online.
Its easy to check 90% of the mic and it doesn't require tools.
More serious is "If" the Blue N Wax is removed/deformed then the basket was taken apart,...so then check the Capsule. Doesn't mean its fake but maybe cleaned or just opened.
If the N-stamp blue wax seal is untouched, its probably original capsule. (as in this case its a older original capsule with some grunge on it..per my breath test). That was interesting, Id read about the breath test but never heard it with my own ears of one that is sensitive to it.
Don't think I mentioned the thump test, the U87ai had a noticeable thump response like most mics, but it didn't ring like some mics do, so that was interesting.
However the AKG seemed to barely make a noise at all with the thump test. Is it the body's thicker metal or the body shape blocks out thumps better? IDK. Id say the P420 was a little better in the "thump test".
Re-reading the 100's of pages at DIY, seems King Korg went into the head basket for a little more sound-tweaking.on the AKG's..a handmade headbasket.
Im not going that far....
makes me wonder, Roswell, WarmAudio BeesNeez, Dachman and so many others all copying the U87i and Ai......don't you think they'd all be pretty close in sound?
Learning is part of the fun at times, so the U87ai, most copied, most bootlegged, has a lot of info available..."the gurus" seem to have put a lot of great info online.
Its easy to check 90% of the mic and it doesn't require tools.
More serious is "If" the Blue N Wax is removed/deformed then the basket was taken apart,...so then check the Capsule. Doesn't mean its fake but maybe cleaned or just opened.
If the N-stamp blue wax seal is untouched, its probably original capsule. (as in this case its a older original capsule with some grunge on it..per my breath test). That was interesting, Id read about the breath test but never heard it with my own ears of one that is sensitive to it.
Don't think I mentioned the thump test, the U87ai had a noticeable thump response like most mics, but it didn't ring like some mics do, so that was interesting.
However the AKG seemed to barely make a noise at all with the thump test. Is it the body's thicker metal or the body shape blocks out thumps better? IDK. Id say the P420 was a little better in the "thump test".
Re-reading the 100's of pages at DIY, seems King Korg went into the head basket for a little more sound-tweaking.on the AKG's..a handmade headbasket.
Im not going that far....
makes me wonder, Roswell, WarmAudio BeesNeez, Dachman and so many others all copying the U87i and Ai......don't you think they'd all be pretty close in sound?
CoolCat
Well-known member
I was doing the playback thing from the tracks and putting the Oscope plugin on it, and it shows a bit more differences between the two.
Could the Oscope graph be matched with EQ, I think so...yes why not? I dropped on some HPF and yes the Oscope Magnified graph can look more similar.
So why not EQ?
then diving too deep into miniscule differences its easy to wonder, where does the "capsule age" become a variable? what about a miniscule capsule "angle" become a microscopic tweak under the magnifying lens?
And the Oscope graph doesn't tell the whole story of sound, but its good data.....so Im kind of leaving it here....
Reading the DIY, King Korg went into the differences caused by the Headbasket which is getting really deep and hard to measure or hear.
it gets to be like right brain/left brain stuff... or the joke, "the wife asks do these pants make my ass look bigger?" and the husband is put in a hard place.
TalismanRich
Well-known member
I read a review of the UT Twin87 recently. The reviewer had it in the studio, and used it in place of the U87ai he normally employs. The verdict was it made zero difference. It sells for $600 new, and has both 87 an 87ai type circuits, switchable. It's multipattern, and comes with an isolation mount and a bag for storage.
Sound on Sound and Produce like a Pro both gave it very positive reviews. SoS's reviewer's only negative comment was that he would like a nice case to go with it. For $30 or so, you can get a nice Pelican style case at Harbor Freight and pocket the extra $70 you would have spent for a wood box.
Sound on Sound and Produce like a Pro both gave it very positive reviews. SoS's reviewer's only negative comment was that he would like a nice case to go with it. For $30 or so, you can get a nice Pelican style case at Harbor Freight and pocket the extra $70 you would have spent for a wood box.
CoolCat
Well-known member
Im a big believer in the Blindfold tests...it can say a lot.
Same goes for many items, US Fender $$$$$$ vs Cheaper Knockoffs....speakers and HiFi audio .....what was the Myth Buster-Ethan Winer...the Audio Journalists picked the wrong HiFi amp... also the SOS- rated the Art MPA II highly against Hi dollar preamps.........the Art MP/ GreatRiver......Art MP go used for $69....
I had the Twin U87 for a bit, I didnt care for the sound, same as the U87ai, so maybe they are dead on... in my dry clean preamp test ....
but why get a Twin87 and not just a P420? and even the P420 will probably be in cardiod 90% of the time...
my old MXL V67G still does fine and with some EQ , can sound different if needed.
why are so many buying $4000 u87ais? or $8000 U67s? crazy kind of.
Same goes for many items, US Fender $$$$$$ vs Cheaper Knockoffs....speakers and HiFi audio .....what was the Myth Buster-Ethan Winer...the Audio Journalists picked the wrong HiFi amp... also the SOS- rated the Art MPA II highly against Hi dollar preamps.........the Art MP/ GreatRiver......Art MP go used for $69....
I had the Twin U87 for a bit, I didnt care for the sound, same as the U87ai, so maybe they are dead on... in my dry clean preamp test ....
but why get a Twin87 and not just a P420? and even the P420 will probably be in cardiod 90% of the time...
my old MXL V67G still does fine and with some EQ , can sound different if needed.
why are so many buying $4000 u87ais? or $8000 U67s? crazy kind of.
Papanate
Well-known member
If you carefully setup the Art MP you can get an almost exact duplicate of thee GreatRiver - but the GreatRiver can do 15 other things with audio that the ART MP Can't.
CoolCat
Well-known member
and is top quality build and parts needed ?
kind of HR hobby needs vs Pro- and Pro-sumer needs.... or Live sessions and in house sessions... beaten or pampered?
in addition to options.
read Great River closed down, retired...I never bought one because the prices never dropped on them!
kind of HR hobby needs vs Pro- and Pro-sumer needs.... or Live sessions and in house sessions... beaten or pampered?
in addition to options.
read Great River closed down, retired...I never bought one because the prices never dropped on them!
CoolCat
Well-known member
the thing about the P420 , Ill add though is its built really well. Its a hunk of metal, weight and headbasket is built to withstand the Bass player whacking it with his Jazz basss head....the emblem engraved, not a cheap sticker. ... the transformer nice touch..... shockmount/case included.
CoolCat
Well-known member
even Abbey Road put the AKG P420 on their "beginner- mics for Home Studio" list!
www.abbeyroad.com
Not bad, not a sales pitch either... suggestion
of course they have a few other mics in the cabinets!
Abbey Road's Beginner Studio Set-Up Guide
What do you need in order to start recording in a home studio? Abbey Road takes you through seven essential pieces of studio equipment required to get you up and running.
www.abbeyroad.com
Not bad, not a sales pitch either... suggestion
of course they have a few other mics in the cabinets!
Papanate
Well-known member
Why are the mics so sloppily arranged?
CoolCat
Well-known member
I posted a pic years ago, someone working in Abbey Road session, and they had piles of beaten up Neumanns in a blue plastic Tupperware box as the session tech was setting them out for a large session..They treat Neumanns like we treated SM57 knockoffs in the garage band!
This drawer looks better but the box pile is like the other I posted. Ill look it up if I can. kind of funny to me, in a contrast to many of the efforts to keep them pristine?
found it..
This drawer looks better but the box pile is like the other I posted. Ill look it up if I can. kind of funny to me, in a contrast to many of the efforts to keep them pristine?
found it..
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CoolCat
Well-known member
playbacks a few days later and the funny thing is the "stock P420" is brighter, but in some stems it seems closer to the U87AI's I have./test drove.
the cap addition DIY smooths this out, but then at times I didn't think it sounded as close as the "stock" to the U87ai.
re-reading the King Korg "infamous DIY" post.... post # 1 he is using a Vintage U87, not really the U87ai. He added caps to better match the U87i he was working with.
As we all know Perception circuits are ripoff of u87, but don't sound like one because of the capsule. A fellow musician sent me vintage u87 to clean super dirty capsule, and two AKG P220 to try to match to the sound of Neumann.
I found out by comparing and measuring the two, for some reason AKG has weaker HF attenuation, and brighter capsule. I just wanted to report that Neumann u87's C6 capacitor responsible for HF de emphasis network is super easy to reach and change.
By measuring frequency responses of u87 and P220 i came to conclusion that it needs to be changed to 680pF capacitor, instead of the original 220pF. You get incredible replica in minutes. It's just that Perception has slightly better bass response, because it has less bass roll off than the Neumann. I didn't want to touch that.
This makes perfect sense to what Im hearing here.
The Mod-P420 is smoother, less bright.....but in doing this its more "vintage U87".....and not the U87ai. (note the vintage U87 is 8mv/pa sensitivity)
I think what Im hearing is the "stock" P420 sounds brighter and more like the brighter U87ai . to my ears...
(the U87ai is 28 mv/pa) the AKG P420 is stock to the 220pf cap, which is the same as the Neumann schematic and also is 28mv/pa with a 220pf cap
....so it matches the gain near exactly and is maybe brighter.
Heres the U87ai circuit C6 is 220pf. Confirming the AKG "ripoff" copy.... Interesting?
Makes sense because many people prefer the smoother U87i, which is the versionDachman and WarmAudio and nearly everyone is copying.
The AKG P420 is "ripping off" the newer U87AI circuit exactly with 220pf cap and higher capsule bias at 60volts and 28mv/pa....(with the difference being the Takstar capsule.not the circuit)
add: the Capsule bias is 46volts on the Vintage U87 I w/ 8mv/pa.
while the Capsule bias is 60volts on the U87ai w/ 28mv/pa.
the stock AKG P420 is using a 60volts bias and is 28mv/pa.
the cap addition DIY smooths this out, but then at times I didn't think it sounded as close as the "stock" to the U87ai.
re-reading the King Korg "infamous DIY" post.... post # 1 he is using a Vintage U87, not really the U87ai. He added caps to better match the U87i he was working with.
As we all know Perception circuits are ripoff of u87, but don't sound like one because of the capsule. A fellow musician sent me vintage u87 to clean super dirty capsule, and two AKG P220 to try to match to the sound of Neumann.
I found out by comparing and measuring the two, for some reason AKG has weaker HF attenuation, and brighter capsule. I just wanted to report that Neumann u87's C6 capacitor responsible for HF de emphasis network is super easy to reach and change.
By measuring frequency responses of u87 and P220 i came to conclusion that it needs to be changed to 680pF capacitor, instead of the original 220pF. You get incredible replica in minutes. It's just that Perception has slightly better bass response, because it has less bass roll off than the Neumann. I didn't want to touch that.
This makes perfect sense to what Im hearing here.
The Mod-P420 is smoother, less bright.....but in doing this its more "vintage U87".....and not the U87ai. (note the vintage U87 is 8mv/pa sensitivity)
I think what Im hearing is the "stock" P420 sounds brighter and more like the brighter U87ai . to my ears...
(the U87ai is 28 mv/pa) the AKG P420 is stock to the 220pf cap, which is the same as the Neumann schematic and also is 28mv/pa with a 220pf cap
....so it matches the gain near exactly and is maybe brighter.
Heres the U87ai circuit C6 is 220pf. Confirming the AKG "ripoff" copy.... Interesting?
Makes sense because many people prefer the smoother U87i, which is the versionDachman and WarmAudio and nearly everyone is copying.
The AKG P420 is "ripping off" the newer U87AI circuit exactly with 220pf cap and higher capsule bias at 60volts and 28mv/pa....(with the difference being the Takstar capsule.not the circuit)
add: the Capsule bias is 46volts on the Vintage U87 I w/ 8mv/pa.
while the Capsule bias is 60volts on the U87ai w/ 28mv/pa.
the stock AKG P420 is using a 60volts bias and is 28mv/pa.
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