Advice on analog setup.

@ cjacek

I won't be buying anything for a little while. I'm going to be researching all parts of my future setup & trying to match things that will go together first (from recorder to cables!) Thanks for taking the time to look, the reason I asked you to look was so I could get a better idea of what I'm looking at when I'm scouring eBay looking at various machines. So, I've learned that photos of the heads, tape lifters & guides is a pretty good gage of condition, thanks! I see some of the machines are obviously from professional enviornments, if they don't say so I think you can tell a lot from the photos, which is, I assume, a desired prerequisite when looking for a machine in good nick!

I think I get the general gist of compression now. I will learn the ins & outs later when I'm teaching myself about recording techniques & such like.

@ _brian_

Thanks for the advice about compression. I will be placing more priority on getting the essential pieces of kit first (to a very good working standard) & learning about mic placement & room treatment before I decide to add on extras such as compression & reverb (although I doubt I will use reverb, I'm looking for a very simple setup to record the instruments as the sound naturally- obviously the recorded sound is room dependent to!)

I'm guessing priority is something like- 1. Musicians 2. Instruments 3. Room & room treatment 4. Mics & mic placement 5. Recorder (with good tape at desired ips) & mixer. Then such things as cables, compression, good headphones & monitors. What d'ya reckon? Anything I've missed, anyone?

I will almost certainly be buying good condition used equipment. Perhaps not for cheaper things like cables etc.

@ Talldog

I'm not at all worried about what any piece of kit looks like, except instruments, PA & anything else needed for live work. I agree the Tascam 388 is along the lines of what I require. Unfortunatley I doubt they come up as much as other models & I'll be buying quite local. There is one on eBay at the moment but I'm not buying just yet! :( I may have to pick out the best working machine I can find that is within driving range when I do 'pull the trigger' as cjacek puts it :cool:

Thanks for the advice on effects, I've noted them all down & will consider them in the future when looking into compression etc.

@ Everyone

So...What's the general consensus for Soundcraft mixers. There seems to be a lot of good deals on eBay, especially the Spirit models (& newer Spirit M). I'll probably be using a mixer for recording & live (unless I end up with a Tascam 388). My P.A. has powered speakers so I don't need to worry about that. The older Tascam M series seems to come up quite a bit.

Thanks again for all your learned advise. Already know way more than a couple of days ago!

Rob
 
Robertobly said:
So there's no modern reel to reel tape recorder manufacturers? Just to be sure!
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If I'm correct, Otari is the only current manufacture of an open reel deck. Tascam doesn't make them any more, but they are probably one of the best manufacturers in regards to parts availability. I think Tascam quit making decks in 2005-ish. I forgot what the model was of that one.
 
before you buy into the big analog mythos, I recommend you do this:

1- buy a good pair of headphones for monitoring and critical listening ($100-$150)
2- buy a modest 2 channel FW interface for your computer (something like the Presonus Inspire. $150 new)

Aside frome mics, thats really all you need to start recording especially if you are doing mainly acoustic stuff.

So you got the mics covered. The SM58 is a very versatile mic (unscrew the ball and it becomes a SM57) and you can use it to record acoustic guitars, vocals, amp cabs and use it close mic drums... the condensor can be used for drums, acoustic instruments, vocals, etc... Pretty much anything the SM58 can't handle, a good condensor can.

You will want a good interface, its gonna be a step up from the consumer grade soundcard that came with your PC. even if/when you step into a good analog setup, you will probably still want to master to PC (nix the Masterlink idea), so it will continue to be useful to you. I recommend FireWire over USB or PCI cards. 2 channel drum recording will be a challenge, but hell I used to track an entire band with my cassette 4 track, so it forces you to be creative. thats a good thing.

Until you get some good monitors, good headphones will help you hear detail and subtle nuances in your music. you can use them to track and you can mix through them. Alot of people will tell you that you shouldn't mix through headphones, and maybe in a perfect world thats true but when you are just getting started out its fine and its a better option than consumer stereo speakers.

you need multi-tracking software too. use Reaper (www.reaper.fm). learn the basics of mixing (EQ, compression, reverb).

Get this stuff and start recording right away. get your feet wet. if you are unsatisfied with these results then explore analog some more. don't spend thousands on an elaborate analog setup if you don't even know what a compressor is.

don't expect analog recording to be a magic bullet. if you want your acoustic guitar tracks to sound great, start with a great guitar and good playing. a shitty out of tune Harmony acoustic with rusty two year old strings is still gonna sound like shit, even played back from a 2" Studer.
 
by the way, I would take the Mackie Onyx mixer over a 30 year old Tascam in a heartbeat. Soundcraft is probably also preferable over Tascam.

and I don't know what analogkid is getting at with this comment:

"Honestly, even when it was cutting edge the MX-5050 wasn't worth that kind of coin!"

Otari R2R decks are high quality, and in my opinion much more desirable than similar Tascam and Fostex.
 
Hello Hi_Flyer,

Maybe analogkid is referring to the specific model MX-5050, rather than Otari in general. It does seem steep for a 2 track 1/4" machine!

Firstly, I may have a limited knowledge of recording at the moment... (although its vastly improved over a couple of weeks of reading- I have also used a 4-track cassette machine extensively- not much I know!) ...I'm not making a home studio for a hobby. The results of the studio will probably make up part of my income (as well as other peoples). I will be extensively researching every angle/part & money is not necessarily an object, although I won't be spending until I have a very good gage on the full setup. However, due to the results I'm/we are looking for, I doubt we will need a lot of 'high-end' equipment. If the results I need are going to be simple/cheap then I'm not bothered, as long as it gets the job done!

I have done quite a bit of recording with the Martin guitars we have through an M-Audio Fast Track Pro - using the SM58 & Rode NT3...Not great results! I have used Sonar for a couple of projects & Reaper is up & running.

I will be getting some good monitoring/listening headphones, probably Sennheiser or Beyerdynamic.

From what I've seen already, the analog part of the setup won't be 'elaborate' or cost thousands of pounds.

I don't expect analog to be a 'magic bullet'. We have top quality instruments & are able to play to a good standard (along with good mic placement this is surely the most important part of the process)...I'm not looking into analog as a cure because I've read about it somewhere...It's a desicion me & my friends arrived at by ourselves over many years of talking.

Yeah, I am inclined to take a 'clean' modern mixer such as a Soundcraft & leave the recorder alone to give the 'sound', over an older Tascam with a lot of wear & tear. Btw, those Studer 269's look nice, pricey I'm sure!!

I hadn't realised FireWire was to be picked over PCI (I realise a decent FW interface will be better than a low end PCI). I thought USB->FW->PCI was the general quality curve. Perhaps PCI is better at very high end? I'll bear this in mind.

Thanks for your time & advise,

Rob


Oh yeah...A decent condition second owner Fostex R8 went for £130 today (with some tape- probably pants), local. Surely that's a good deal! :)
 
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Robertobly said:
Oh yeah...A decent condition second owner Fostex R8 went for £130 today (with some tape- probably pants), local. Surely that's a good deal! :)
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I'd much prefer the R8 for £130 than the otari 2 track $5830.00!! :eek:

At this stage I'd forget about creating high quality masters as it'll take a little time to get used to your new toys. There's no point in spending on a high quality soundcard or interface just for it to sit & gather dust while you're struggling to buy & get used to the more essential equipment. I use an EMU 0404 for this purpose & it does exactly what I need it to do.
 
Hi_Flyer said:
by the way, I would take the Mackie Onyx mixer over a 30 year old Tascam in a heartbeat. Soundcraft is probably also preferable over Tascam.
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I've heard good things about the mackie onyx series mixer's preamps but that's a big jump in price from the soundcraft m series. I have a VLZ pro & although not supposed to be in the same league as the onyx, find it's preamps to be ok, it's eq section really is dire though!! I'll be upgrading to an m series when I can!!
 
Rob,

If you're not worried about buying s/hand, a mixer that may be worth considering is the S/craft Spirit Studio, a 16 channel model can be had for a reasonable price on Ebay. They were S/craft's "project" studio console before the Ghost was introduced, the preamps and EQ are all more than adequate, they have mic and line in, inserts, direct outs and tape returns on each channel and the sub groups and master section are fairly comprehnsive, making them ideal for what you want to do. Obviously, regardless of what console you consider buying, the wise move is to check it out first if possible, although at least with S/craft, you should have no trouble getting parts and/or service advice in the UK which with any older equipment is always a consideration.

Even though you're proposing to only use an 8 trk recorder, the additional channels on a console are handy for feeding the returns from effects units (reverb, delay) through as it then gives you the EQ and fader control over these units.

I would also consider ditching the NT-3 as they're not the "nicest" mic on the planet ;). Are you considering recording everything at once or tracking the instruments individually?

:cool:
 
Hello ausrock,

My possible tracking procedures:

1. Bass, drums & acoustic guitar. Then vocals. Anything else (organ/percussion/lead guitar work)

2. Bass & drums. Then acoustic guitar. Then vocals. Anything else (organ/percussion/lead guitar work)

I'm not worried buying s/hand no, I'll probably be looking for local things (a lot comes up 'cos I'm in a biggish city) & checking everything is fine before buying.

Mics...

So, I've got an SM58(57 without sphere) & a Rode NT3. Here are some mics that have been advised: SM57's & imitations, 'cheap omni mikes like Naiants', Studio Projects C1 condensor. Any advise, bear in mind I'll probably be mic'ing as follows:

1 or 2 for drum overhead(s)
1 for kick
1 for snare
1 for bass amp
1 for acoustic guitar (used for vocals sperate)

I read there is ment to be a good method for mic'ing an overall drum sound with two overheads (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiFOD1EeKhQ). This would reduce costs a bit, but is it any good?

Cheers for comments,

Rob



EDIT- Sorry, I know this is the analog forum. I will be posting on mic section, & reading a bit there. Value opinions of people who are experienced in analog & digital.

EDIT- I thought some of you might like to read this:

"There are some people who say that "professional" recordings cannot be made on a machine like this. They insist that you need to use an expensive 2" (or maybe 1") machine and spend thousands of dollars on tape to record anything worthy of release. This is nonsense. Ironically, those who argue that "professional" must equal "very expensive" rarely are professional musicians or engineers themselves. Sometimes they're studio owners with an interest in getting you in the door, but more likely they are weekend warriors who spend more time acquiring and talking about their latest rare and costly vintage prizes than actually making or recording music. After all, how many professional musicians do you know who can afford to record on a 2" Studer for a couple of grand a day? Bottom line: wider tape increases fidelity to a certain extent, but that should take nothing away from narrow-format machines like the Tascam 388. Many artists have released excellent, gorgeous-sounding albums recorded on machines like the 388. When your main goal is to make good music, and make a living at it, you use what works and disregard the hype."

Oliver Buck.

I'm not really into his musc, but I think the sounds pretty good & I'm going down a similar path of recording myself!
 
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You'd be in a minority group then:).....unfortunately, the NT-3 is one of the harshest, most "brittle" sounding mics I've encountered yet every now and then someone seems to have had (limited) success with one. If it works for you then that's great.

:cool:
 
as someone mentioned a modern mackie VLZ mixer. i have tried one and then tried a 30 year old TASCAM M308 mixer almost back to back and the M308 blew it away with better sound quality. also if you get an 8 track recorder the M308 would be perfect for it. it is actually designed for recording where most modern Mackie mixer are designed for live sound in mind.
this is my recent experience.

EDIT: oops i thought i read VLZ but the poster was reffering to the onyx in which i have no experience with.
 
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I mentioned it, but basically was trying to educate the original thread starter not on getting a VLZ pro but how rotten I think the it is!! :confused: Ok, it's not bad preamp wise, but I'll be upgrading to a soundcraft spirit m when I can & yes the mackie was dearer than the soundcraft - we all make mistakes but it was a long time ago!! :o
 
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