Acoustics - Need Opinions

[mongoose]

Try a Maton , or Cole Clark, if you can get them in the US.

 

[Light]

People have probably told you already, but at that price range you're likely to be paying for a lot of ornate design features and superfluous cosmetic stuff. I may be wrong...there probably are guitars out there in which the $4500 is purely on the sound and basic construction alone.

Actually, that's pretty mid level for high end hand built (which has nothing to do with using hand tools, but means that it is built by one guy, or maybe two) guitar. I know guys with base prices of about that, and I know a few guys (Jeff Traugot, Jim Olson, etc.) who have base prices considerably higher than that. Jim and Jeff are around $12,500 last I heard. I know Jim did a James Taylor Signature series of guitars which started at 15,000 for Indian rosewood, and at $25,000 for Brazilian rosewood. And the there are the archtop guys, for whom a 12,500 guitar is not even worth thinking about.

On a factory guitar $4500 will frequently get you a lot of decoration, but not always. That is less than half the list for the "D-18 Authentic 1937" - a guitar which is identical in every way to a 1937 D-18, so they say. That means it is mahogany back and sides, simple lines for the purfling, simple dots on the fingerboard, etc. Their even using hide glue for the whole thing (I feel a bit sorry for the guys who have to do the glue ups on those. Hide glue gels VERY fast, and has an open time of less than a minute for the most part). Of course, they are using modern Waverly gears, and the funniest parts (to me) are the lack of a truss rod (in an $8,000 guitar!), and the Boltoron binding (the originals had cellulose binding, which has some serious problems, so it is probably a good thing). Street cost, that thing is probably coming in at right around $4500.

High end guitars are a very different beast. Not always better (though they can be), but different. It has less to do with higher end guitars being better guitars than it does with the fact that some people just can't find what they want in a factory guitar. The guitars are fine, but they just are not what everybody is looking for. That is why people like us can do what we do. We make something which is NOT mass produced. Something which is individual, and which can not be recreated on a assembly line. You may have looked at everything and found factory guitars wanting, or you may just know that YOUR guitar has to be unique. Either way, it is a real, and perfectly good reaction to have. High end guitars are not for everyone, but some people really do need them.

My favorites are the guys who need 20-30 of them. Or the guy who just bought one of my dad's guitars - he has 75 guitars! You know what we call those guys? Our best customers.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[tdukex]

Light, you are a man of very strong opinions. I respect that.

You know what? Almost everything you just said is wrong. First of all, if you have the money and want to spend it, then it is up to you what you do with it. You should, of course, do your research, but to say you have "no business buying one" is just crap.

You are welcome to your opinion, and I disagree with it. Just because some young guy can afford a Ferrari doesn't mean he should be driving one. aaroncomp is not even familiar with high end guits and probably doesn't even know what he likes in a guit yet, but you are advising that he goes out and spends $4,500 on a guit (just because he can) when there are plenty of great guits in the $1,500 - $2,500 range that he can gain experience on? I respectfully disagree with your advice.

You are right, though, that every guitars is different. But that being said, you can get a very good idea of how a builders guitars sound by simply playing them. There are a lot of things which lead to a builders signature sound. Sure, they are all different, but they are all the same too, you know?

Yes, I agree that they have a sig sound and feel. But remember, you are and expert with probably 20+ years playing experience and building experience as well, and you know exactly what you are hearing and feeling when you pick up a guit. He's a kid (no offense) in his twentys with very little experience. I'm not saying he shouldn't get a high quality guit, just that he should gain more experience before laying down $4,500 on a guit that six months later he may decide he doesn't like because of the neck radius or (or whatever). He can't get that experience by just playing a few different brands. Experience takes time. It takes me at least six months with a new guit to really get to know it (I know I am slow).

As for gigging, I know a LOT of guys who gig on their $4000+ instruments. And most of the guys who don't gig take their guitars to jams, festivals, and classes. Sure, there are guys who just hide them away at home, but that is, in my eye as a builder, a travesty. Guitars are meant to be played. They are meant to be used to their fullest purpose, which is to make music that makes people happy. Sometimes that is just one guy in his room, and that is fine. But it is so much better when it is a room full of people.

This is your opinion. Three of my favorite world class guit players Harvey Reid, Jim Earp, and Leo Kottke (and I'm sure, many others) do not gig with $4,500 guits.

There is NOTHING that makes me happier than to see a guy up on a stage playing one of my guitars. It makes me feel a lot like a proud parent. I smile a lot whenever I see that happening. That is even better than seeing them in magazine articles.

I understand, and I certainly can't disagree with that!

 

[jfrog]

like it's been stated above, at your price range much of the difference will come down to personal taste...different guitars emphasize different frequencies, feel different, etc.

I would definitely try out Larivee's & Breedloves though.

 

[onlyfingers]

A cheap guitar costs too much

Yes, Tdukex, it is wrong to say someone has no business buying a $4,500 guitar. Just 'cause the guy asks for opinions, doesn't mean he knows nothing about high-end guitars. And even if he knows nothing about $4,500 guitars, buying one will teach him quick, won't it? At almost every level, it makes sense to make careful purchases. Some people may come by money easy, and may not care how they spend it, but I have seen plenty of guys who have a lot of money because they are careful about how they spend it. And reseaching here means you'll spend better time at the store.

I am thinking about the tactic you suggest of spending $2,500 on a guitar to get experience with, so that Aaroncomp doesn't have the pain of being dissatisfied with a $4,500 guitar as he gains experience with the more expensive guitar. Those are expensive training wheels. Why spend $2,500 on a guitar that isn't all you want it to be? Take me, for instance, trying out the Taylors at GC. $2000 with Taylor would not satisfy my GAS. I was up at Aaroncomp's level before I was playing a Taylor that sounded and felt real nice. For me, $2000 on a Taylor would have been worse than a waste. That $2000 is still sitting there, with the kitty growing, so that when I get a guitar I can do like Aaroncomp, and get one I really like. (BTW: I am closing in on 60, and am a three-chord plinker. Should I wait until I have mastered a fourth or fifth chord before getting a real nice guitar?)

(If there is room in the trunk, I would put my $4,500 guitar in my Ferrari and drive over to the gig. I haven't seen Kottke or Harvey Ried or Jim Earp play, and I wouldn't know how much their guitars cost if I did. Saw a guy with a Goodall a couple of weeks ago. Could have been one of those cheap $2,500 ones, huh?)

 

[tdukex]

Yes, Tdukex, it is wrong to say someone has no business buying a $4,500 guitar. Just 'cause the guy asks for opinions, doesn't mean he knows nothing about high-end guitars. And even if he knows nothing about $4,500 guitars, buying one will teach him quick, won't it? At almost every level, it makes sense to make careful purchases. Some people may come by money easy, and may not care how they spend it, but I have seen plenty of guys who have a lot of money because they are careful about how they spend it. And reseaching here means you'll spend better time at the store.?)

arroncomp's first post makes it very clear that he does not have much (if any) experience with high end guitars.

I am thinking about the tactic you suggest of spending $2,500 on a guitar to get experience with, so that Aaroncomp doesn't have the pain of being dissatisfied with a $4,500 guitar as he gains experience with the more expensive guitar. Those are expensive training wheels. Why spend $2,500 on a guitar that isn't all you want it to be? Take me, for instance, trying out the Taylors at GC. $2000 with Taylor would not satisfy my GAS. I was up at Aaroncomp's level before I was playing a Taylor that sounded and felt real nice. For me, $2000 on a Taylor would have been worse than a waste. That $2000 is still sitting there, with the kitty growing, so that when I get a guitar I can do like Aaroncomp, and get one I really like. (BTW: I am closing in on 60, and am a three-chord plinker. Should I wait until I have mastered a fourth or fifth chord before getting a real nice guitar?)?)

I'm not recommending a "tactic" but only that he gain experience before plucking down $4,500 on a guit that may not end up being what he really wants. I can easily afford a $4,500 guit but instead play two $1,500-$2,000 guits because the Collings, Goodalls, Ehlers, etc. that I've played don't justify the extra $2,000-$3000. For example, a year or so ago I had decided I was going to buy a Santa Cruz OM ($3,500)--I had always want one. But after playing two SC OMs at Buffalo Brothers against my Webber OM ($1,600) I discovered that the Webber plays and sounds just as good--at least IMO.

Another example, I was at BB again last June plucking away at some of their high-end nylons. Then I picked up a used Larivee L-30 ($1,600) that IMO blew away every other high-end nylon in the store. I dreamed about that L-30 that night and went back and bought it the next day.

Yes, I have played many highend guits over the past decade (look at the Buffalo bros website), and I am friends with Dave Meyer (Jack Straw) guits who is a fabulous luthier in his own right. Dave, himself, has stated that once you get past the $2,500 range in guits you are essentially paying for more than tone and playability. He doesn't mean more expensive guits aren't better or more valuable, just that the law of diminishing returns really starts kicking in at that point. You (and possibility Light) may disagree, but we all have our opinions, don't we?

So just because your GAS was not satisfied by playing a $2,000 Taylor at Guitar Banjo, doesn't mean your advice is valid. And I promise you that if you can't find a "real" nice guitar in the $2,000-$2,500 range it is because you don't know what a "real nice guitar" is, and you, also, probably have no business owning a $4,500 guitar.

(If there is room in the trunk, I would put my $4,500 guitar in my Ferrari and drive over to the gig. I haven't seen Kottke or Harvey Ried or Jim Earp play, and I wouldn't know how much their guitars cost if I did. Saw a guy with a Goodall a couple of weeks ago. Could have been one of those cheap $2,500 ones, huh?)

Well...if you (or aaroncomp) are one of those people who "come by money easy" or one of those "guys who have a lot of money because they are careful about how they spend it," then by all means go out and plunk down $4,500 on a new guit. I agree that is what you should do. And get the Ferrari while you are at it.

 

[Outlaws]

This just reminds me of something on the note of Ferrari.

There are some 70's Ferrari cars that can be had in great condition for about $35-40k. People think its a fantastic deal and they will look great and it will perform superbly. -and it does.

But then something breaks and they realize it is a FERRARI and it costs every bit as much to fix as a brand new one. You will have no problem spending $100 just on oil for your oil change...and that doesn't cover the filter.

I happen to work with BMW's. I was bored and was eves droppping in on a sale going on. There was a girl (about 18-23) with her mom buying a used 2003 M3. Another guy (after the sale was done) was trying to be nice and fully explain what she was getting into. The mom said the girl was working three jobs and this is what she really wants. he explains you need to only use synthedic oil and its $. You can only go X miles and you start doing harm which will only lead to more $ than the oil. If something breaks it will cost $. (by the way, those Xenon headlights that turn with the steering wheel are $850 per side). So she was all gitty and not really taking all this in....then she asked if she could buy a BMW keychain. Ofcourse. $28 for a plain metal circle with a blue and white BMW propeller logo. That took the wind out of her sails quick.



Either way, as to should or shouldn't own one with your money, thats a given. its up to you. As to asking a question about which guitar to get, then getting a response that says maybe you should think twice and buy once....that seems like a valid answer to the question.

 

[astoebe]

If you can afford to spend $4500 then you can afford to drive to try one out. Just play everything you see and one will stick out. THis isn't a question you can ask us It never has been. Even at $500 I fail too see the point in asking what is a good guitar. Its one thing if its a mom or dad or someone looking for their first guitar, but if you are willing to spend $4500 then I would at least like to think you know how to play and can feel why you need a $4500 guitar. ...but if you can feel why you need one, then you should already know where its at.

oh, and don't simply skip over a Martin or Taylor or Gibson just because they are not 'underground' or that some people will say shit about them and how custom boutique guitars are 100x better, because at $4500, almost all those grips are gone. Martin, Taylor, and Gibson are the standard for certain types of sounds for a damn good reason.

I personally prefer the D series, but the 000 gutiars are THE guitar for finger picking.

that's a really good point...hopefully if you are spending that much you have an idea of what you are looking for. and i agree that in that price range it is going to be opinion. i've said this before on here, but i have a taylor that is very bright that i love but my good friend who has a different style of playing has a darker martin that he loves. i don't like his so much, he doesn't like mine...however they both play great, it's just a difference in the sound we are looking for.....so no one will be able to tell you what you should get, especially when you are dropping the big bucks

 

[Light]

This is your opinion. Three of my favorite world class guit players Harvey Reid, Jim Earp, and Leo Kottke (and I'm sure, many others) do not gig with $4,500 guits.

The only comment I will make is that Leo (who is a good friend) has played a LOT of high end guitars on stage, including (in recent years) his Olson. Now, he only does this on driving gigs, not on plane gigs, but he does it. He spent most of the eighties playing primarily on a hand made acoustic, and he is more responsable for how Bozo's are respected amongst 12-string players than anyone, which was one of his main 12's through the seventies. It was not until his relationship with Taylor started that he used factory instruments all the time on stage. A relationship which has ended, by the way.

And there are many players who DO tour with high end guitars. James Taylor, of course, is hardly a player whose situation is common, but Phil Keggy tours all the time with his Olson, as does Kathy Mattea, and many others. Pat Donahue tours with his Ryan. But really, my comment was more to do with the MANY guitars we have sold which are used on stage frequently, if not every day. They may not be famous, but they play there guitars live all the time.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[onlyfingers]

I was just joking about the car

And get the Ferrari while you are at it.

Thanks for the advice, Tdukex. But you know, I end up very fond of my guitars, while a car just gets me from one place to the other.

 

[aaroncomp]

Sigh...

tdukex,
You originally stated that I have "no business" buying a guitar in the aforementioned price range if I'm not familiar with the offerings in that price range. So, how exactly does one become familiar with a guitar in that price range? Can I expect it to fall into my lap one day after years of playing those in the $3000 range? Am I supposed to live in guitar stores for several years first? Actually, this alludes to the original purpose of my message. I wanted suggestions about acoustics to narrow my focus, essentially, through the huge experience base we have on this bbs.

And where do you get off with this matter-of-fact assumption that I am "not even familiar with high end guits" and because of my age have "very little experience"? If you read my original post carefully, you would see that I asked for "opinions" about acoustic guitars and the experience people have personally had with them. The only guitar in my post I actually have a completely open question about is the McPherson. The mention of Taylors, Martins, and Goodalls allude nothing to my personal experience with them. So I will continue to let you assume that I'm playing the newest Esteban guitar. Perhaps one day you will come across me playing my "Esteban" guitar and see just how well my "little experience" blazes the fretboard.

Again, to those who have contributed info, thank you.

 

[tdukex]

The only comment I will make is that Leo (who is a good friend) has played a LOT of high end guitars on stage, including (in recent years) his Olson. Now, he only does this on driving gigs, not on plane gigs, but he does it. He spent most of the eighties playing primarily on a hand made acoustic, and he is more responsable for how Bozo's are respected amongst 12-string players than anyone, which was one of his main 12's through the seventies. It was not until his relationship with Taylor started that he used factory instruments all the time on stage. A relationship which has ended, by the way.

And there are many players who DO tour with high end guitars. James Taylor, of course, is hardly a player whose situation is common, but Phil Keggy tours all the time with his Olson, as does Kathy Mattea, and many others. Pat Donahue tours with his Ryan. But really, my comment was more to do with the MANY guitars we have sold which are used on stage frequently, if not every day. They may not be famous, but they play there guitars live all the time.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Light, it is cool that you are friends with Leo. I was fortunate to shake his hand once after a concert at the Belly Up in Solana Beach a few years back. To this day that is the best concert (and the funniest) I have ever attended.

 

[tdukex]

Sigh...

tdukex,
You originally stated that I have "no business" buying a guitar in the aforementioned price range if I'm not familiar with the offerings in that price range. So, how exactly does one become familiar with a guitar in that price range? Can I expect it to fall into my lap one day after years of playing those in the $3000 range? Am I supposed to live in guitar stores for several years first? Actually, this alludes to the original purpose of my message. I wanted suggestions about acoustics to narrow my focus, essentially, through the huge experience base we have on this bbs.

And where do you get off with this matter-of-fact assumption that I am "not even familiar with high end guits" and because of my age have "very little experience"? If you read my original post carefully, you would see that I asked for "opinions" about acoustic guitars and the experience people have personally had with them. The only guitar in my post I actually have a completely open question about is the McPherson. The mention of Taylors, Martins, and Goodalls allude nothing to my personal experience with them. So I will continue to let you assume that I'm playing the newest Esteban guitar. Perhaps one day you will come across me playing my "Esteban" guitar and see just how well my "little experience" blazes the fretboard.

Again, to those who have contributed info, thank you.

Sorry to have offended you aaroncomp. I was wrong to have worded my original post with "has no business..."

But I did read your original post carefully. Probably more carefully than most others did and definitely more carefully than you seem to have read mine. You will get no better advice than I gave you, but unfortunately, you seem to have missed that part.

Regarding your last post, you have hostilly misrepresented what I said. I only said you didn't appear to have experience with highend guits, not that you couldn't play or didn't have playing experience. I know plenty of people who are much better players than I who don't have (or need) highend guits.

Let's see. (1) You are 26 and (2) made a blanket request on opinions about highend guits but didn't mention a single highend guit brand (other than McPherson and Goodall) or that you have even played these (have you?) and (3) threw Taylor and Martin into the highend guit arena, which is ok, kind of.

So does my assumption (and probably everbody else's who responded, even though they didn't state it, let's have a show of hands) that you are unfamiliar with highend guits really surprise you? Are you now saying that you do in fact have experience and are familiar with highend guits? Was I wrong about that? If so, I apologize, I made an incorrect assumption. If not, correct me (which you haven't done, so I still assume it)

My main points were clear and well illustrated, and they specifically address your original post.

1) Someone who does not have experience with highend guits should not go out and spend $4,500 on one. This is not an insult, only an opinion based on number (2).

2) Why? Because there are plenty of fabulous, highend guits in the $2,000-$2,500 (or even $1,500-$2,000 range) to gain experience with. Why? Because of the law of diminishing returns. You simply don't need to spend $4,500 to gain experience with highend guits. That's all.

3) Don't forget, you asked if there were less expensive guits out there:

"And just because I've set a price limit, that doesn't mean more expensive is better. If you think guitar A that is only (ha, "only") $2000 sounds better than guitar B cositng $3500, great."

Hmm...didn't I mention two specific brands, with examples, didn't I?

So, aaroncomp, since you didn't like my advice, let me revise it for you. If somebody tells you something you don't want to hear, ignore it (or respond hostilly). Just let your ego be your guide.

 

[aaroncomp]

Your assumptions were fair. Point taken. I suppose my aggression spawned from the absolute "He's a kid (no offense) in his twentys with very little experience" comment. With age as your only guide, sure, I guess one could say that no one at my age could have enough true experience.

As far as guitars go, I have regularly played on Martins and Taylors. Other highend ones I have played in stores only. I have not played the McPherson (which was obvious) nor the Goodall (which was not obvious). Basically, my real objective for this post was to hear the opinions of other users about their experience. From this I could possibly hear those who have played for 20+ years and never found anything they liked better than guitar X after comparing it to numerous others. Or someone who said they played Guitar B for years, only to find that it didn't compare to Guitar A. So, for example, Guitar B was a Froggy Bottom, I'd take that into consideration - because, no local dealer has Froggy Bottom, so I wouldn't immediately drive somewhere to check it out. Again, I completely realize that these are all subjective experiences; nontheless, I merely wanted them as a rough guide.

Now concerning the price. Again, I completely acknowledge that price doesn't equal quality, and I appreciate your input about your experience with those that are much less than my max. Thus, if I'm convinced after thourough comparisons that I like one guitar better than another, I will purchase it regardless of the price. Another thing to consider about my situation. As you pointed out, I'm 26. Music is one of the most important aspects of my life. Therefore, it is safe to assume that over my lifetime, I will accumulate several guitars (I don't know about 75! as was mentioned earlier ). My main focus on purchasing an instrument will always be quality (sound first, aesthestics latter). I see them also as art and worth collecting (I guess you could say "investment," but unless I absolutely hate one as time passes, the only way I would ever get rid of one is through my will). Guitars, if taken care of, typically don't depreciate. So whatever my purchase may be, I don't see me losing out much if down the road I'm miserable about my purchase. At this point in time, yes, I seek the qualities in an acoustic that I originally posted. The absolute best I can purchase for $4500 or less in terms of sound for strumming or picking.

What I think it basically boils down to is this: when one get's past a certain price range (let's arbitrarily say $1500), the difference between instruments is mainly going to be a subjective feeling of the various flavors between them. So for now, I want to purchase what I consider the best souding, etc. (whatever the cost), but down the road, I may want another flavor of sound. Eventually in my lifetime, I will purchase an acoustic costing $4500 or more. If that time is now (i.e. the one I consider sounds the best costs that much), then so be it.

In closing, I will definately be checking out the Webber and Larivee as you have suggested. Again, the experience comments upset me a bit. I wouldn't necessarily say that I "hostilly misrepresented" your comments earlier - yes, sarcastic with my questions, but in all sincereness, what exactly do I need to do to have "business" with more expensive guitars. Is it strictly a time/age thing? Sorry if I seemed hostile.

 

[Monkey Allen]

Actually, that's pretty mid level for high end hand built (which has nothing to do with using hand tools, but means that it is built by one guy, or maybe two) guitar. I know guys with base prices of about that, and I know a few guys (Jeff Traugot, Jim Olson, etc.) who have base prices considerably higher than that. Jim and Jeff are around $12,500 last I heard. I know Jim did a James Taylor Signature series of guitars which started at 15,000 for Indian rosewood, and at $25,000 for Brazilian rosewood. And the there are the archtop guys, for whom a 12,500 guitar is not even worth thinking about.

Yeah, I kind of thought that $4500 wouldn't really be the top...but once you convert that into Australian...it's a bloody mint!

I hear what you're saying about 'one off' custom guitars, I'm just really advising him against paying for cosmetics...but if he has that much cash to play with I'm guessing he's smart enough to know

So Light, you're a guitar builder? And that's your job? That would be awesome

 

[tdukex]

Thanks for the advice, Tdukex. But you know, I end up very fond of my guitars, while a car just gets me from one place to the other.

I'm with you on that, onlyfingers. I am very fond of my guits as well! And everytime I trade up I feel I am somehow betraying the guit I am leaving behind.

 

[tdukex]

In closing, I will definately be checking out the Webber and Larivee as you have suggested. Again, the experience comments upset me a bit. I wouldn't necessarily say that I "hostilly misrepresented" your comments earlier - yes, sarcastic with my questions, but in all sincereness, what exactly do I need to do to have "business" with more expensive guitars. Is it strictly a time/age thing? Sorry if I seemed hostile.

Fair enough, aaroncomp. Sorry I came off as an ass (which my wife tells me I often am).

We all have our reasons for what we do with our guits. There is no doubt that in general a $4,500 guit is going to be better than a $1,500 guit. I personally would rather have two different fine guits in the $2,000 price range than one masterbuilt $4,500. Although most highend guits do depreciate somewhat, they do maintain most of their value.

That said, for me the best way to gain experience is by owing/playing as many good guits as I can, and the best way to do that is by buyng them and living with them for at least a year (and yes, letting them go when I find something I like better that seems like a reasonable step up). Two guits in the $2,000 range gives me twice as much experience. Trade them in for two others and now I have experience with four guits, and so on and so on.

For a person taking this route, as you gain experience and compare the $2,000-$2,500+ offerings with the more expensive $4,000-$10,000+ guits you will have a more solid basis for determining what you value in a guit and what that extra cash actually buys you and if you feel it is worth the extra cash.

And remember, the masterbuilt, cream of the cream guits will always be there if you decide that to you they are indeed worth the extra money. I haven't reached that point yet.

Best of luck, and enjoy the hunt!

 

[Light]

Light, it is cool that you are friends with Leo. I was fortunate to shake his hand once after a concert at the Belly Up in Solana Beach a few years back. To this day that is the best concert (and the funniest) I have ever attended.

He's even funnier in person, when he is up for it. One of the best things in life is to hear him play without having any kind of amplification or recording electronics in the way. Just him and his guitar.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[bdbdbuck]

I have a $2500 koa Taylor..love it! Sounds like angels singin'. Compared to the $10,000 Steven Stills signature Martin my friend has... I feel I got the better deal. When you're spending that much money, you gotta play it and think in your heart that it sounds like angels singin', or you're wastin your time and money!

bd

 

[spangled99]

I have a 56 Gibson J50, a 59 Guild M20 and a 59 Guild M30 that cost me inside that budget. the J50 and M30 are well played (a good sign) but still very solid. I took my time assembling them and all three are flat out some of the best guitars I've played - for me. I don't think you necessarily have to spend 4500 all at once.