Acoustic Strings...

[muttley600]

Gee, I wonder what causes those intonation problems on old strings?

I've already told you what causes the intonation problems way back. Jeez your like a dog with a bone and with just about as much idea about how materials behave.

post #15 in case you've forgotten.

While we are still on the subject I assume you have now read and digested the link I gave to you and accept that tension is what tension is in a string of given length and pitch. Can you now explain this to the group with citations and/or examples of real world observations other than your own.

........... ultimately a string will lose its tone because its molecular properties have changed even if the string is not tarnished. Strings should be changed frequently just for this reason.
VP

Just a little push in the right direction for you you need to google terms such as "mass to stiffness ratio" and "modulus of elasticity" as a starting point.

 

[Zaphod B]

The powder absorbs all the gunk and it dissapates it into thin air!

P.S Well I wonder why if a guitar is left unplayed for a while all the strings are sharp?

One explanation is that, when you are playing your guitar your strings warm a few degrees from the contact with your hands, and from the friction of playing. As the strings warm up they go a bit flat and so you'll tune them up a bit. After you put the guitar away the strings cool to ambient and go a little sharp.

If you don't think strings will go flat from friction-induced temperature increase, try this: take a thin piece of cotton (handkerchief, whatever) and wrap a corner of it around one of your unwound strings. Run the cloth up and down the string rapidly, keeping it tight. Pluck the string and observe what the pitch has done, and listen as it returns to pitch as it cools.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

I assume you mean "uncoated".

It is just a preference mind as I've always said. To my ears coated strings sound too squeaky and bright new, settle down for a day and then sound squeaky and dull for the rest of their natural life. I also haven't noticed a significant extended life when it comes to intonation problems which is normally my trigger for replacing strings. Those are just my observations mind and everyone has their preference.

Oh shit! :lol:

Nanowebs actually to my ears help reduce squeak, but it probably varies somewhat by brand. That said, there's a certain airiness that's definitely missing from the high end.

Victory Pete - I've never once had a guitar go sharp on me after not playing it for a while.

 

[Zaphod B]

Victory Pete - I've never once had a guitar go sharp on me after not playing it for a while.

Mine do, but I think it has a lot to do with the change in ambient temp in my recording area (hotter when I'm recording and all the gear is lit up, cooler when not).

 

[muttley600]

Mine do, but I think it has a lot to do with the change in ambient temp in my recording area (hotter when I'm recording and all the gear is lit up, cooler when not).

It would be to do with the expansion and contraction of the timber rather than the string. On a side note I took one of my acoustic out of a case for the first time in about 6 months the other day because I was going to lend it to a friends daughter who is getting on well learning to play. The thing was still almost perfectly in tune. Each guitar is different though as you know.

 

[Zaphod B]

It would be to do with the expansion and contraction of the timber rather than the string. On a side note I took one of my acoustic out of a case for the first time in about 6 months the other day because I was going to lend it to a friends daughter who is getting on well learning to play. The thing was still almost perfectly in tune. Each guitar is different though as you know.

My acoustic is the one most likely to be in tune after not having been played for a while. Go figure.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Mine do, but I think it has a lot to do with the change in ambient temp in my recording area (hotter when I'm recording and all the gear is lit up, cooler when not).

I guess that's fair - never with a statistically significant frequency. I'll occasionally have a single string or two a little sharp, but just as often one a little flat.

It's actually kind of a pain in the neck - I live in an area with massive humidity shifts between summer and winter, so for me the problem is less tuning than action - in the summer, my guitar will suddenly be coming in around 4mm+, whereas when fall hits, I have to relax the truss rod so the strings don't choke. Of course, I play a 7-string Ibanez with a super-thin neck, so... :lol:

 

[Zaphod B]

I guess that's fair - never with a statistically significant frequency. I'll occasionally have a single string or two a little sharp, but just as often one a little flat.

It's actually kind of a pain in the neck - I live in an area with massive humidity shifts between summer and winter, so for me the problem is less tuning than action - in the summer, my guitar will suddenly be coming in around 4mm+, whereas when fall hits, I have to relax the truss rod so the strings don't choke. Of course, I play a 7-string Ibanez with a super-thin neck, so... :lol:

That's interesting. My action seems to remain (relatively) constant but my tuning stability varies. I guess I'm not experiencing the wide humidity shifts that you are, even though it does get pretty dry for a couple of months in the winter.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

That's interesting. My action seems to remain (relatively) constant but my tuning stability varies. I guess I'm not experiencing the wide humidity shifts that you are, even though it does get pretty dry for a couple of months in the winter.

New England in the summer gets pretty gross. The heat isn't so bad, but the humidity at times is so bad (and I live within maybe an hour's walk of the coast, which is certainly a factor) that you're drenched as soon as you step outside.

Part of it is that the neck on my Universe is just very thin, and it's finished with tung oil and not truly sealed. However, I've had days before I install my window AC unit where I'll come home and just find water beading on the back of my guitar's neck. For some reason it builds up there...

 

[muttley600]

That's interesting. My action seems to remain (relatively) constant but my tuning stability varies. I guess I'm not experiencing the wide humidity shifts that you are, even though it does get pretty dry for a couple of months in the winter.

The real point in all this really is that because we are using an anisotropic material of which no two pieces can ever be the same, we can never predict exactly how it will behave in service. That is both the beauty and the rub.

(I'm talking about the timber now not the strings).

 

[muttley600]

New England in the summer gets pretty gross. The heat isn't so bad, but the humidity at times is so bad (and I live within maybe an hour's walk of the coast, which is certainly a factor) that you're drenched as soon as you step outside.

Part of it is that the neck on my Universe is just very thin, and it's finished with tung oil and not truly sealed. However, I've had days before I install my window AC unit where I'll come home and just find water beading on the back of my guitar's neck. For some reason it builds up there...

Maybe something to do with the temperature differential of the timber and the truss rod. Very hard to say as I've never seen anything like that and we get quite drastic shifts in temp and humidity here all year.

 

[Zaphod B]

The real point in all this really is that because we are using an anisotropic material of which no two pieces can ever be the same, we can never predict exactly how it will behave in service. That is both the beauty and the rub.

(I'm talking about the timber now not the strings).

Anisotropic meaning that its material properties vary with the orientation of the material - and that differs from instrument to instrument?

 

[muttley600]

Anisotropic meaning that its material properties vary with the orientation of the material - and that differs from instrument to instrument?

yes pretty much, anisotropic describes that the properties are different in all directions. Timber will move differently with changes in moisture content, it will propagate sound differently in all directions of grain, it will cut, cleave, resist stress and strain, compress and torsion differently in all directions of the grain. That's precisely why it is perfect for what we want and no two pieces are ever the same as a result.

 

[Victory Pete]

One explanation is that, when you are playing your guitar your strings warm a few degrees from the contact with your hands, and from the friction of playing. As the strings warm up they go a bit flat and so you'll tune them up a bit. After you put the guitar away the strings cool to ambient and go a little sharp.

If you don't think strings will go flat from friction-induced temperature increase, try this: take a thin piece of cotton (handkerchief, whatever) and wrap a corner of it around one of your unwound strings. Run the cloth up and down the string rapidly, keeping it tight. Pluck the string and observe what the pitch has done, and listen as it returns to pitch as it cools.

I understand how friction and temperature affect tuning. I have noticed for the last 2 decades, all my guitars going sharp with time, especially Basses. Even if I dont play the guitar but just check its tuning it will increase. Why do you think they say to loosen your strings if you arent going to play your guitar for a while? Because the strings will naturally tighten. The same thing happens to copper wire, it gets stiffer with time. I am no metalurgist, but I am smart enough to rationalize my experiences and observations.
VP

 

[muttley600]

I understand how friction and temperature affect tuning.

Please explain and give examples. Seriously I am intrigued and want to see the physics as well as the studies that lie behind those conclusions.

..........Why do you think they say to loosen your strings if you arent going to play your guitar for a while?
VP

Who does??

Because the strings will naturally tighten. The same thing happens to copper wire, it gets stiffer with time.

Again please show me the physical evidence of this and the studies that demonstrate that materials behave this way. I am particularly keen to see the evidence that guitar strings naturally tighten. Once that is established we can discuss copper and your evidence for that "stiffening".

I am no , but I am smart enough to rationalize my experiences and observations.

No you are not a "metalurgist" neither are you a metallurgist.

Please either show some evidence to support your position or accept a level of understanding of those that are. At least do me the courtesy of supporting your statements with something that is based in practical research or accepted science.

 

[Victory Pete]

Please explain and give examples. Seriously I am intrigued and want to see the physics as well as the studies that lie behind those conclusions.

Who does??

Again please show me the physical evidence of this and the studies that demonstrate that materials behave this way. I am particularly keen to see the evidence that guitar strings naturally tighten. Once that is established we can discuss copper and your evidence for that "stiffening".

No you are not a "metalurgist" neither are you a metallurgist.

Please either show some evidence to support your position or accept a level of understanding of those that are. At least do me the courtesy of supporting your statements with something that is based in practical research or accepted science.

"You should change your guitar's strings regularly, even if you don't play very often. Over time guitar strings lose elasticity. That increases the tension on the guitar's neck, which can cause it to warp. When you do play a lot, the strings also become corroded and lose their tone and brightness. If you play for an hour or more a day, it can take as little as a week or two for your strings to lose their tone and elasticity."

http://www.merde.org/guitar/carefeed.html


http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/648052/work-hardening

http://www.getalife.com

 

[muttley600]

"You should change your guitar's strings regularly, even if you don't play very often. Over time guitar strings lose elasticity. That increases the tension on the guitar's neck, which can cause it to warp. When you do play a lot, the strings also become corroded and lose their tone and brightness. If you play for an hour or more a day, it can take as little as a week or two for your strings to lose their tone and elasticity."

http://www.merde.org/guitar/carefeed.html


http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/648052/work-hardening

http://www.getalife.com

Can you please provide some scientific evidence for the claims you make. Posting a link to a self confessed non guitar expert and a link to the phenomena of work hardening in metals of which I made you aware in post #15 doesn't really provide any scientific understanding of material properties or musical acoustics.

Please provide evidence that,

you?

...understand how friction and temperature affect tuning

who?

Why do you think they say to loosen your strings if you arent going to play your guitar for a while?
VP

How?

Because the strings will naturally tighten. The same thing happens to copper wire, it gets stiffer with time.

I repeat, "At least do me the courtesy of supporting your statements with something that is based in practical research or accepted science."

 

[ez_willis]

man, I would LOVE to rickroll you guys right now. LOVE IT!!!

 

[Victory Pete]

Can you please provide some scientific evidence for the claims you make. Posting a link to a self confessed non guitar expert and a link to the phenomena of work hardening in metals of which I made you aware in post #15 doesn't really provide any scientific understanding of material properties or musical acoustics.

Please provide evidence that,

you?

who?

How?

I repeat, "At least do me the courtesy of supporting your statements with something that is based in practical research or accepted science."

All you made me aware of is that you must be a very bored and frustrated person, Good Bye!

 

[Armistice]

As Frankie Z said "Shut up and play yer guitar..."

Back to the OP and the "man up" comments...

I play acoustic almost exclusively these days - you will get used to it... just takes time, and you'll also develop a killer grip which is useful for getting the tops of jars and throttling candy-ass electric players who use .09s on Les Pauls... pussies.