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Rod Gervais
New member
frederic said:
LMFAO ........................
LMFAO ........................
frederic
New member
Rod Gervais said:
:-D
Well, it is true. A lot of these youngin's think the large hole in my truck's catalytic converter is an indication of "open headers" and "a built engine", when in reality the new, fairly ridiculous engine is sitting on a test stand waiting for spring to arrive. Just a big hole I can't be bothered fixing, on a really tired engine, in a really squeeky old crewcab.
Anyhoo...
When I was younger, and less mature (okay, not that much younger and I'm still immature), I used to go "hunting" with this:
While it looks like a 10 y/o, front wheel drive, "old guy" Lincoln Continental, looks are very deceiving. Since there are no spoilers, wings, carbon fiber and fart pipes, the assumption that is often drawn by the street wankers, er, racers is that this car is very slow.
Lets just say with what I have in the car, I could feed my "gear slut" persona for a very, very long time.
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tkingen
Djembes Rock
d(-_-)b-Phones said:
I have both Auralex and FBM products. Sorry, but they are not the same product. As for acoustical properties, I can't say if they react the same or differently. But, they look and feel differently.
knightfly
GrouchyOldFartOnBatteries
Have you tried burning a piece of each to see what happens when you remove the heat? (be sure to do this OUTSIDE and very carefully) Steve
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KevinDrummer
New member
Rod Gervais said:
OK, I've gotta go back on my word, and post again in this thread. I can't let that strawman argument stand.
Absorbtion is a major part of soundproofing. The absorbtion provided by foam applied to walls is a minor part of soundproofing.
You know this has really got quite rediculous, and you seem intent on knocking me down. I guess I'm that "special" type of person that you are condescending to (although I have some "unscientific observations" on that, also - right here on the board) I've agreed with you more than once on the most effective way to soundproof a room.
Why don't you just be clear and provide the raw empirical scientific data on how much or little foam reduces the amplitude of sound at several frequencies - and not a simple rehashing of your same "it takes mass" stuff?
And by the way, I do make a living doing this (among other things) in my job as a facilities manager. I have designed and constructed several spaces that are isolated to varying degrees, all of which have proven quite effective. Its actually quite fun to do when you have "deep pockets".
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Rod Gervais
New member
KevinDrummer said:
LOL.......... I can't do that for the simple fact that it isn't used for isolation - and thus no data exists for that.
I can come up with hundreds and hundreds of different TESTED wall designs - all specifically for sound isolation - and not a single one that has used foam as a product for isolation.
Sort of makes you think - or at least it should.
No reputable company sells this as an isolation product - as I said to you earlier - if any one -ANY ONE AT ALL - had ever successfully tested this product for it's isolating properties - they would be posting those test results and selling their product like crazy - JUST FOR THAT PURPOSE - think about it - an isolating product that also TREATS YOUR ROOM INSTEAD OF CREATING ACOUSTIC PROBLEMS THAT YOU THEN HAVE TO TREAT - THEY'D HAVE A GOLD MINE ON THEIR HANDS.
Nope - sorry sir - no emphirical data exists because it doesn't work....... as much as you might believe it - as much as you might claim these results - it isn't true - and no matter how much you might believe it - no matter how many times you tap those ruby slippers together and chant "I want to go foam - I want to go foam" - this ain't Kansas Toto - and you just can't get here from here.
Sincerely,
Rod
Innovations
New member
This brings up some good points. First of all you never test just a single product for STC but entire wall assemblies. How the wall is assembled, the order of the materials, the size of the air space, etc. all make a difference.
If you do see a material, listed by itself, as having an STC (like mass-loaded vinyl) it means that in a particular situation it caused the STC to be increased by that ammount. Used in other ways it will have different (most likely less) results.
And you are right, there are whole books of page after page of test results of different wall constructions. Sure if somebody thought of testing walls with foam (which I would be willing to guess they did) and it made a difference (which I think it would not) we would be seeing those test results somewhere.
If you do see a material, listed by itself, as having an STC (like mass-loaded vinyl) it means that in a particular situation it caused the STC to be increased by that ammount. Used in other ways it will have different (most likely less) results.
And you are right, there are whole books of page after page of test results of different wall constructions. Sure if somebody thought of testing walls with foam (which I would be willing to guess they did) and it made a difference (which I think it would not) we would be seeing those test results somewhere.
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Rod Gervais
New member
Innovations said:
Innovations,
you hit the nail right on the head.
You can bet your bottom dollar someone has tried........ and it did not work - and THAT i why we cannot see a single report on the value of this product for isolation purposes - but we can see attenuation reports (and some make believe reports as well) on the value of this product for room treatment..... because that (and that alone) is where it's value lays.........
ROd
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Rod Gervais
New member
KevinDrummer said:
Nope - not bent on knocking you down at all - just the myths and fairy tales that folks like you try to spread as reality..........
Note that I also went after those claiming (again and again) that Auralex and FBM foams are "exactly the same"......... So I am not focused on you.
I have designed and constructed world class movie (only 15,000 sf though)and recording studios - and am presently the chief engineer on a 3/4 billion dollar project - working directly for the developer.
I am a speaker for AISC at conventions on the value of Staggered Truss systems and frequently a judge for their engineering contests.
I am a code expert, a multi-discipline engineer and a moderator of an acoustic forum at another BBS.
I will give you the best advice I possibly can sir....... and that is to perhaps study this some more - because if you are giving advice at your job that in any way resembles what you have been saying here - one of these days a real acoustician may come around and your company will find out how little you really know - and that might not be a good thing.
SIncerely,
Rod
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KevinDrummer
New member
Rod Gervais said:
You keep attributing a position to me that I haven't taken.
I would never "give advice" to anyone at work or here to "use foam" to solve things it won't solve. And I haven't. I never said "go buy foam".
My main point in this thread is that interior treatment can effect transmission to the exterior.
Will you say that application of foam to the interior of a space has NO effect on the amplitude in the adjoining space?
And I hire accoustical engineers and other professionals for the jobs I spoke of to work with me. "I" was responsible for the projects, and I do take a active hands-on approach - but when the budget and scope allow, I always get the best help.
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Rod Gervais
New member
KevinDrummer said:
I most certaintly have not - you have stated - I quoted this - and now I quote again:
KevinDrummer said:
That was your position - taken early on in this discussion - and you were (quite frankly) wrong. Once again - the fact that you were wrong is again proven by the fact that NO assemblies exist which include these products as a part of a rated isolating wall assembly. It sure doesn't "help"
This I will agree to - but it isn't the way you think.
Nope - it might have a small effect one way or the other - oh yes - it can slightly increase or DECREASE a walls effective value when you apply a material to it's surface.
No way to tell exactly unless you field test after construction what influence and what frequencies might have been effected due to this.
This is true for foam as well as for bass/mid and high frequency traps that are installed directly in contact with a walls surface.......... they can (and will) effect the center frequency of the panel they are attached to - and thus might increase (or decrease) it's efficiency slightly - but even the possible decreases are slight enough in nature that we don't concern ourselve with them when treating a room. that because we have already designed enough isolation into the system to arive at the finished product we desire.
I cannot (for the life of me) understand why you went from "a major part of soundproofing" to "can have some usefulness" and yet you won't admit that your initial advice wasn't on target.
On some occassions I will have a "brain fart" - and on those occassions where I do I come back immeadiately and let everone know I screwed up - I do not understand people who (when proven to be mistaken) can't "man up" and let it go.
Rod
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KevinDrummer
New member
Rod Gervais said:
Rod,
You keep quoting my "major part" post. For the second time, I'll reiterate; what I said was absorbtion is a major part of soundproofing. I think this is the main misunderstanding. My logic and thinking was "absorbtion is a key in soundproofing. That said, foam does provide some absorbtion".
All sound is eventually converted into another form of energy, so I guess you could say it's the only factor. Its the "when/where" that is key for both treatment and isolation.
I'm man enough to admit my mistakes. My career and shifting obsessions have dictated that I have a knowledge base about 20 miles wide and about a foot deep, so I'm used to deferring to others for "expert" advice. I've posted here way more than I wanted to or really care about. It's the "go buy your foam, dude" posts in reply to what I say that get to me and make me keep replying.
In a small room without any special isolation construction, heavy application of interior "softies" including foam has, in my experience, contributed to less sound in the next room.
'Nuff said. I really am done this time. I promise.
Really.
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Rod Gervais
New member
KevinDrummer said:
Kevin,
The mass law dictates that for every doubling of mass you acheive a 6db reduction of (weighted) isolation......... figure out how that works with foam for even a standard frame wall.
Again - I have nothing against you personally - the original post was what I responded to - and that was the question of the person asking for info on treatment/isolation - and they are 2 very VERY different questions. And they require totally different answers.
You are correct in your statement that some people cannot afford to isolate properly - with all that is required to accomplish that - and if that is the case - I always advise them to forget wasting their money on isolation - Just treat and figure out a way to either play at lower levels or work out a timing arrangement that will allow them to play when others aren't around - and thus won't be bothered.
But even if all they have is a 2x4 wall with 1/2" drywall each side - they have to double the mass to get a 6db reduction - and to acheive the 10 to 30% reductions you claim take a lot of mass as well.......... that is one hell of an investment in Auralex foam - or even in FBM foam........ drywall is a much cheaper way to acheive the same results.
Rod
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JohnnyMalaria
New member
Mass, mass and MASS - Except for....
...a vacuum.
Interestingly, a complete alternative to mega amounts of massive materials is to use a complete ABSENCE of mass - a vacuum.
Does a marketed product exist that uses a vacuum as the soundproofing medium (or lack of)? Vacuum Insulation Panels (VIPs) exist - example here and here. Additional info, including evacuated concrete panels, here
(BTW - the word used at length in this thread is absorption, not absorbtion).
...a vacuum.
Interestingly, a complete alternative to mega amounts of massive materials is to use a complete ABSENCE of mass - a vacuum.
Does a marketed product exist that uses a vacuum as the soundproofing medium (or lack of)? Vacuum Insulation Panels (VIPs) exist - example here and here. Additional info, including evacuated concrete panels, here
(BTW - the word used at length in this thread is absorption, not absorbtion).
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Rod Gervais
New member
JohnnyMalaria said:
Johnny,
Very interesting - both the links (and their info) as well as the concept.
I couldn't find any information on the isolation values of these products, was I missing something? I would appreaciate (if there is info regarding this) if you would "point me" in the right direction.
One of my big concerns with this method would be "lifetime" of the product seal........ so I would probably want to see it in use for some time before I suggested it to my clients.
I don't spell check before posting - and I don't worry about typos - not as long as the intent is clear.
Thanks for the input.........
Rod
gvarko
New member
Yeah Rod
My test is hang it on the wall, record and if it sounds better - Hooray!!!
You studio "Pro's" need to get over yourselves...
Rod Gervais said:
My test is hang it on the wall, record and if it sounds better - Hooray!!!
You studio "Pro's" need to get over yourselves...
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Rod Gervais
New member
gvarko said:
Gvarko,
And if that makes you happy then I'm happy for you.
But your observations are subjective - they don't give you anything to back up your claim that the materials are identical - especially when the data from both companies proves that they aren't.
I dont have an issue about your happiness - I do have an issue with your presenting as "fact" things which are not factual - this to people trying to gain knowledge so they can make an informed descision.
If you had said: "I have no idea what the difference is between Auralex and FBM products - or even if there is a difference. I used FBM foams in my studio and I am very happy with the results" there wouldn't be anyone here questioning you on truths or the substance of your claims.
It's not the same as presenting your "data" on the products (and how they comapare) as facts.
Rod
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OriginalEQ
New member
How many assholes can you fit on one forum?
