Acoustic Panels = Bass Traps?

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Gear_Junky

Gear_Junky

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People use these words interchangeably and finally convinced me to make my own panels. From what I've seen in pictures of people's studios and sound rooms it looks like they put panels around the walls and don't even bother with corner traps, right?

In a 10x10x10 room (I know it's the worst possible size, it's not really perfectly 10x10x10, though, and has 2 doorways) if I have a nice-size thick panel on each wall, do I need anything in corners?

Or is it better to have 4 narrow tall panels placed in the corners at an angle?

Thx!
 
Most people don't know what they're doing and don't treat adequately for low frequencies.
 
Gear_Junky said:
So corners first, right?

Yeah, that's what I'd do, then about 1/4 -1/3 of the walls with 4" apsorption, and some diffusion.
 
I'd agree to a point. In a small room like that, most of the absorbtion does need to be thicker - just don't have the luxury for 1 or 2" material. Everything has to help with the bass.

As far as diffusion, IMO you're not far enough away from any boundary to make much of any kind of diffusion effective in that space. The only thing that you might get by with would be some poly's to help break up some of the slap.
 
Good discussion there.

I don't see much disagreement that ANY non-parallel surface won't help reduce slap.

Also, while not a 'perfect' diffusor, the polar plots of a poly vs a QRD are quite clear that the poly has a smoother dispersion curve.

Lastly, while maybe not perfect enough to eliminate comb filtering, it certainly does help minimize things and also is effective over a much large frequency range.

Throw in the fact that you can build a decent sized one that is effective down into the bottom vocal range for < $100 and to me it's a no-brainer.

In any case, the issue with being pretty close in a small room minimizing the effectiveness of diffusion is pretty much accepted I believe. If you figure a 10' room, seating at 38% (3.8'), that leaves you 6.2' to the rear wall. That's right at the edge of what some people say is the minimum space to benefit from diffusion. Others will say it's 10'.

I say, if you wanna try it and see, it's pretty cheap and easy to put up a sheet of bent plywood and see if it helps in your situation - unlike MANY $$$ or MANY hours of cutting and construction to build a well diffusor or try to emulate a 3D Skyline.
 
Please enlighten me: what's "poly". Maybe I just don't recognize it in this context. Thanks.
 
Please enlighten me: what's "poly".
POLY CYLINDRICAL DIFFUSER. Click on the link, and you will see a picture of one somewhere in the thread. Basically its just a piece of thin plywood bent to a slight curve and held in place on the wall with two cleats.
 
Hey bpape...I was just kiddin with ya :p Quite a discussion though. Although I already went through one on that site last year about the same thing. I wanted to build a QRD on my ceiling like some pictures in Everests book. I was told by members there that they were bullshit. Which is why I've been pissed at "acousticians" ever since. I mean, I paid almost $25 for that book in the early 90's, and believed everything in it., Basically I was told by an acoustician who frequents Studiotips site, that Everests book was .....well, I better not say. :rolleyes: Now, who do you believe anymore. If you can't believe a CREDENTIALED acoustitions book, then what the hell is going on? :mad: :mad:
 
Rick,

> I wanted to build a QRD on my ceiling like some pictures in Everests book. I was told by members there that they were bullshit. <

This is not as big a dilemma as you seem to think. On the one hand you have guys like Alton Everest and Dr. Peter D'Antonio and Dr. Trevor Cox all saying that QRD diffusors are excellent. They are supported by large numbers of top studio designers and top studio engineers who all have QRD diffusors in their million dollar control rooms. On the opposing side you have a guy who apparently flips burgers by day, and pretends to be an acoustician by night on the Internet. It's not a tough call who to believe! :D

--Ethan
 
On the opposing side you have a guy who apparently flips burgers by day, and pretends to be an acoustician by night on the Internet
Since when did Eric or Angelo Campanella become employed at McDonalds? ;) I don't believe THEY are JUST "net" acousticians. Thats not to say that the others you have mentioned are on another planet either. I'm just saying, it amuses me when something embraced by "science" can be so easily rejected by the proponents of "other" schools of thought. I was taught either that "scientific PROOF" EXISTS or it DOESN"T...period. :rolleyes: :mad: So when there are such opposing views by people with the same level of science background and credentials, something tells me there is snakeoil in the works...SOMEWHERE. :rolleyes:
 
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RICK FITZPATRICK said:
I was taught either that "scientific PROOF" EXISTS or it DOESN"T...period.

Real scientists write a lot of things like "some of the evidence suggests..."
 
apl said:
Real scientists write a lot of things like "some of the evidence suggests..."

Or my personal favorite, "Scientists used to think, but now they know..."
 
Rick,

> Since when did Eric or Angelo Campanella become employed at McDonalds? ;) <

I didn't mean them. You know who I mean. Did Angelo Campanella actually say he believes a curved piece of plywood is as good as (or better than) a real QRD diffusor?

Of course, acoustics is part art and part science. So while the science may not be subject to interpretation, which type of surface "sounds better" could be.

Again, as I suggested when we spoke on the phone, you should go to the effort to track down a studio that has real QRD diffusors and listen for yourself. The difference between a real diffusor and curved plywood is not subtle at all. The moment you hear it you will instantly know why so many studio designers and recording pros gladly pay much more for QRD diffusors.

--Ethan
 
APL,

> Real scientists write a lot of things like "some of the evidence suggests..." <

You must be thinking of the ad copy writers for alternative medicine products. :eek:

:D

--Ethan
 
Real scientists write a lot of things like "some of the evidence suggests..
Which means??? :confused: Lets get down to brass tacks. When they "use" that sort of scientific MUMBO JUMBO to sell products that DON"T work, it pisses me off. You know as well as I do that RPG products are all over the net.

Even though we've been through this subject a few times, I'm going to say this again for the benifit of any newbies that are currently visiting here. I'm certainly no expert on these subjects. And thats why I started asking questions regarding "diffusion" on this very bbs four years ago. I had purchased Alton Everests book called the Master Handbook of Acoustics in the early 90's. Now, I don't know about you, but when I read something that claims to be a so called "Master", I USED to assume they knew what they were talking about, and had the credentials to back it up. And indeed, within the book it appeared to do just that.
I don't know if any of you have this book, but I had the second edition, which had a chapter on Diffusion, and illustrated the current "scientific"concepts, techniques and products in vogue at the time. But when I say in "vogue", according to the book, these were based on solid scientific investigation and testing ie...Shroeder tests.

At the time, I was amazed at the "scientific explanation" and pictures of QRD's and Prime Root diffusers shown in the chapter on Diffusion. For years I planned on building some of these in my own home studio. But as you know, things don't always go as planned. As time went on, I found this bbs and at some point asked about how to interpret the "quadratic residue sequence". Also at this time, the bbs resident expert(John Sayers, who is a pro studio designer) replied right back. He suggested in no uncertain terms that he "had seen MILES of these type diffusers torn out of current studios because they PLAIN DON"T WORK!! :mad: Well, as you can imagine...my bubble had just been burst!! :eek: :eek: :mad: And I was PISSED!! After all, how can a so called "acoustician" with credentials write and sell a book, with suggestions of approval of products such as RPG sells, with scientific mumbo jumbo explainations on WHY and HOW they work, and THEN have professionals in the working world say they DON'T. Needless to say this led me on a quest to find out what the fuck was going on. Frankly, I don't think this quest has ended yet, as the link I posted clearly illustrates this quagmire STILL exists!

Two years ago I found a yahoo "Acoustics" group which has since been YANKED off the net :eek: because of circumstances that were pretty wierd if not downright unlawfull . These circumstances appeared to have EXACTLY to do with what I'm talking about, and to this very day, as you put it Apl, "evidence suggests" that there are people out there that don't want certain knowlege known as it may cause ....well, lets just say...unpleasant consequences to some people and companys:rolleyes: Ethan, you KNOW exactly what I'm talking about here. Let me go on.

At that time I posed some questions to the "resident experts" on this very subject, of which I recieved some startling replys, which in effect didn't really answer my questions, but posed some even deeper questions regarding small room acoustical behavior. Thats when I began my acoustics "Alice in Wonderland" journey into the acoustics rabbit hole. I barely made it out alive :D But not before seeing how deep and sometimes sinister it may be...
http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=2196

, and how wierd it can be. To this day I am amazed at the heretofore unaccessable information that has surfaced for acoustical laymans consumption.

As time and questions/answers came and went, I began to smell something funny. It was at this point I discovered another Yahoo group called Alt. Physics, which I began to visit frequently. I soon discoverd most of the members of the Yahoo acoustics group had migrated to, as it was the only other viable "scientific" net community out there at the time. But as you probably are aware, group and audio/studio forum formation on the net has exploded. It was there that I finally posed a question directly conceived to expose what and what not is known about "diffusion". I posted this heading...
SMALL ROOM DIFFUSION-FACT OR FICTION?

I explained what I said above about the "Master Handbook" and asked about building some of those devices in the pictures. Well, it took at least a week before some serious, if not vague answers began to appear. In fact, it was beginning to look like a dance whereby "professional curteousy" superceded scientific FACT, as no one dared to actually come right out and tell me YES or NO, to the question...DO QRD"S WORK...PERIOD. And if NOT, why don't these companys that sell them get SUED! And if they do indeed work, why do I hear other acoustic professionals tell me they DON"T! :confused: :confused:


Regardless of your personal opinion of whether these concepts work or not, I still feel to a certain extent that the Emporer is walking around nude, and when those proponents of TRUTH try to expose this and other acoustical quagmires, they are COMPLETELY shut down on some of these forums. Here is an example..
http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=2190
http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=2191



And frankly, I don't even give a fuck anymore cause I'm at the point where I'm ready to chuck this hobby for good. But its nice to know I'm not the only one who chases these curiosities.
http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=2154

Ok, I'll be the first to admit, I'm certainly no expert. In fact, I'm still just a somewhat enlightened Home Recording enthusiast wannabe, but that doesn't mean I can't smell snakeoil. And if someone can prove its NOT, I'm all ears, but as far as I can see, theres some pretty strange stuff goin on out there. And I ain't talken about egos either. I'm talken DOLLARS AND CENTS.
 
I didn't mean them. You know who I mean. Did Angelo Campanella actually say he believes a curved piece of plywood is as good as
You didn't mean them? Well, who DID you mean cause you know as well as I do this has been going on for quite a while. :mad: You SUGGESTED that everyone who responds to this line of questioning is a fucking idiot "burger turner", and they AIN"T. EVEN ERIC has some kind of pro background, and as far as I can see, HE is the ONLY one that trys to make some sense out of this stuff by telling the facts. AND I'm sure if other pros in this field didn't think he was truthfull, they'd call him on it. As to the "Did Angelo Campanella actually say he believes a curved piece of plywood is as good as" part...no, we weren't even discussing polys, as not much had been said at that time although a few people who still are members at Studiotips were posting things about them . Mr. Campenella pretty much laughed at the question though. He gave me his "homespun" opinion on "diffusion in a small room", which suggested that...well, if you have frequencies that are equal to and larger than a rooms dimensions...well, you know what I'm going to say. :rolleyes: DIFFUSION implys the WHOLE range from 20hz to beyond hearing...yet how the hell can you do that in a small room ;)
Anyway Ethan, thanks for your opinion and suggestion, but I'm pretty much done with this whole ball of wax. I haven't got the time, energy, resources or even the interest anymore to pursue whats taken 20 years to get this far. I've finally realized this hobby is beyond my ability to invest the resources it takes. 10 years ago I thought I could financially succeed. Ha! Now, its plain that survival till I die will supercede the finishing of my studio. :( Oh well, such is life.

fitZ
 
Real scientists also add, "...but I could be wrong."
Does that mean what I think it means? God I hate guessing what people are trying to say. Why don't you just say what you mean?
 
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