Acoustic Panels = Bass Traps?

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RICK FITZPATRICK said:
Does that mean what I think it means? God I hate guessing what people are trying to say. Why don't you just say what you mean?

Sorry, didn't mean to cause such consternation.

For complex phenomena like the behavior of acoustical materials it is impossible to say as you were taught "scientific proof exists..." Things are fuzzier than that.
 
I know you were just joshin' Rick.

I have been trying to find some plots that Terry Montlick posted on another forum which showed some polar plots of a flat surface, a QRD, and a poly. I have no idea how far away they were plotted at or the frequencies used, but the results were very interesting. The Polys showed a much smoother dispersion pattern than the QRD's did. If I find it I'll post it or at least a link to it. That said, the QRDs were still definitely better than a flat wall.

To me, the choice is a matter of:

- space
- frequencies to be addressed
- whether or not you also want some absorbtion (like you get with well diffusors).

I mean really, how hard is it to build a poly? How much money does it take? Not hard and not much money. There is also the possibility, as has been discussed before, of arranging a series of poly's next to each other to gain additional 'randomness' by how they interact with each other.

There also seems to be a lot of debate over whether or not polys 'diffuse' equally for all frequencies. Some say they do, some say they don't. QRDs definitely don't (and that's not a bad thing). I don't mean equally well, I mean that they diffuse in different directions to an extent based on frequency.
 
Things are fuzzier than that.
In that case, I have a new absorber I'd like to market.It absorbs whatever frequencies you want and where you want them absorbed...of course I have no proof, and its kind of fuzzy but thats ok....the tests "evidence suggest" SOME people will believe me.

Now step right up while they last.....er, no sir, they're all one size, no just put these little things in your ears..now, the tighter you push them in, the higher the freqency of absorption...see...yes, only 5$...thankyou.... yes sirreee, now whos next? :D
 
guys

my budget is tiny, so i will prolly have to build my own room acoustics. what exactly will i have to do to keep a relatively small room from echoing?

and what exactly is diffusion? is it just to stop the echoing?

I will post exact measurements when i get them. thanx for all your help :)
 
RICK FITZPATRICK said:
In that case, I have a new absorber I'd like to market.It absorbs whatever frequencies you want and where you want them absorbed...of course I have no proof, and its kind of fuzzy but thats ok....the tests "evidence suggest" SOME people will believe me.

Now step right up while they last.....er, no sir, they're all one size, no just put these little things in your ears..now, the tighter you push them in, the higher the freqency of absorption...see...yes, only 5$...thankyou.... yes sirreee, now whos next? :D

You should work in marketing at Monster Cables.

Here is a conclusion from a paper published in the Journal of the Acoustical Society of America. Note that proof or similar words are not used and that the tone is confident but not certain.

Panneton said:
In this work, acoustical methods were derived from the Johnson et al. and Wilson dynamic density models to characterize the parameters governing viscous dissipation in open-cell porous media. The methods were tested on three materials covering a wide range of static flow resistivities (2300–150 100 Ns/m4), frame rigidities (soft and rigid), and pore geometries (cells and fibers). To operate, the methods require an acoustical measurement of the dynamic density of the tested material.

From the Johnson et al. model, two methods were derived: (i) an analytical method and (ii) an extrapolation method. To use the analytical method, the static airflow resistivity and open porosity of the material must be known. To use the extrapolation method, only the open porosity needs to be known. Both methods allow characterization of the geometrical tortuosity and viscous characteristic dimension. In addition, the extrapolation method can be used to characterize the static airflow resistivity of the material. Tests on the three porous materials have shown that both methods yield statistically the same results. Moreover, the static flow resistivities found from the extrapolation method were very close to the directly measured ones.

To estimate the precision of the analytical method using the Johnson et al. model, the method was applied on two virtual materials of theoretically known properties (dynamic density, geometrical tortuosity, viscous characteristic dimension, and static airflow resistivity). From this study, it was found that the method should yield small relative errors on the tortuosity (maximum error less than 2% in absolute value). Similarly, small relative errors (less than 1% in absolute value) are expected for the static airflow resistivity if the extraction proceeds at low frequencies. For the viscous characteristic dimension, if the method is applied in the low-frequency viscosity-controlled regime, a systematic error is introduced. From the tested virtual materials, this systematic error is expected to be no more than 20% (in absolute value)—which is quite acceptable since this parameter is difficult to obtain with accuracy using other existing methods. However, if the method is applied in the higher-frequency mass-controlled regime, the error tends rapidly to zero. In addition to the assessment of the precision of the method, Fig. 1 obtained from this error analysis can be used to select the frequency range in which the extraction should proceed to minimize the error of the method.

For the Wilson model, the derived analytical method was found to be a secure characterization method to infer representative values for and in the Wilson dynamic density. Also, it was shown that relations =0/ and, more particularly, =02/2 or =20/, as proposed by Wilson, may be misleading. For the second relation, it was found to be more appropriate to use J. One advantage of the Wilson model over the Johnson et al. model is that the characterization of the two Wilson's parameters does not require prior knowledge of any other physical properties.

Moreover, it was found that both models, once their parameters are carefully characterized, predict similar dynamic densities and compare well with measurements. Also, for both models, relative constancy in the characterized parameters in the function of the frequency was noted. This constancy can be used to assess the validity of (1) the descriptive models in a given frequency range; and (2) the characterized parameters found from the proposed characterization methods. Also, it supports the relaxation process as suggested by Wilson and the Johnson et al. dissipation function GJ.

Once again, these good correlations with measurements, together with the noted constancy in the found parameters with the frequency, reinforce the fact that the proposed characterization methods offer an elegant alternative to existing characterization methods. Moreover, since the methods only rely on equations and a widespread apparatus (impedance tube), this makes the characterization of porous materials possible for many acoustic laboratories.

To conclude, the authors believe that comparisons with ultrasound techniques are necessary to complete this work—this was not possible here using the available laboratory equipments. Also, similar methods15 could be developed for characterizing the parameters relative to the thermal losses (i.e. thermal characteristic dimension, static thermal permeability, Wilson entropy-mode relaxation time, Wilson compressibility parameter). To improve the reliability of the proposed methods, work on improving the accuracy of the measurements of the dynamic properties (characteristic impedance, propagation constant, dynamic density) and on the minimization of frame vibrations, is necessary.
 
apl:

> Real scientists also add, "...but I could be wrong." <

Bingo. :D

Rick:

Sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about or what your point is. As you yourself said to apl, "Why don't you just say what you mean?"

At some point you have to decide for yourself if QRD diffusors "sound better" than a bare wall or a piece of curved plywood. I went to the trouble to track down real QRD diffusors (I've heard them many times since), and it was immediately clear to me why QRD diffusors are superior to a bare wall or curved plywood. As you know, I have suggested this to you many times! So at this point the burden is on you. Otherwise it's like you arguing over which of two loudspeakers is better without having heard both of them. Or complaining that it's impossible to know which speaker is better because you can't be bothered to drive down to a pro audio store and audition a few pairs for yourself.

Bryan:

> The Polys showed a much smoother dispersion pattern than the QRD's did. <

That's not the point. An angled wall section will deflect all frequencies very uniformly. But it's not a diffusor. It merely changes the angle of reflection from straight back into the oncoming sound, to instead send it somewhere else. Have you ever heard a real QRD diffusor, or compared it side by side with a bare wall or curved / angled surface? The difference is not subtle!

--Ethan
 
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We should really have a separate thread for "what scientists say", it's too funny to be lost in unrelated threads!

My fave so far is the "scientists used to think... but now they know..."!

It reminds me something like this:

"James Bond thought... liked it and so thought again and again" :D
 
An angled wall will NOT deflect sound evenly. It will deflect it all in one direction and all at the same angle and the same for all frequencies. The poly will not do any of those things nor will the root diffusor. An angled wall would not produce a smooth polar plot. That's the whole purpose of the polar plot is to show you how well the sound is distributed - which IS the whole point of a diffusor.

I've never compared a poly and a well absorber in the same room under controlled conditions. I have heard both and yes - there is a difference. I won't say that either is always better or worse. They both have their place and applications. The questions again become what I laid out before - how much money and time do you have, how much space do you have, and over how wide a band do you need control.
 
RICK FITZPATRICK said:
In that case, I have a new absorber I'd like to market.It absorbs whatever frequencies you want and where you want them absorbed... :D
Now that’s an idea. a panel that can be electronically manipulated to absorb, diffuse or reflect, specific frequencies. Chemicals can flow thru chambers that reflect frequencies and with the turn of a knob affect how these frequencies either reflect, diffuse or absorb what ever rang or specific frequencies you want.
 
Bryan,

> An angled wall will NOT deflect sound evenly. It will deflect it all in one direction and all at the same angle and the same for all frequencies. <

Sorry, I must have misunderstood your post. I see what you mean. Though I still don't think a poly sounds as good as a QRD. :D

There was a great post by Jeff Szymanski a few months ago somewhere that explains the benefit of a QRD over a poly better than I've been able to. If I can find it I'll give a link.

--Ethan
 
Hey guys, just to show I wasn't opposed to polys, and in fact, I was thinking about using polys myself quite awhile ago. Still am. Here is an old booth design.
Wonder what a POLAR PLOT of this scenario would look like? :D
VBdrumb.gif
 
With mixed sizes of poly's grouped like that, I'd bet it would be pretty good.

Ethan,

Don't get me wrong. I think QRDs have a place - like when you need specific bands and you also need the absorbtion that the wells will provide. I've spec'd both for jobs - depends on the situation.

Personally, I prefer the QRDs on the side walls and ceiling if they want something more lively but usually use a BIG Poly on the rear wall - like 6-7' wide, floor to ceiling and about a foot deep. You'd be amazed how much that will help with the null off the back wall while still providing good 'dispersion'.

I really think that's the big hang-up is the terminology. Diffusion suggests randomness. Do we NEED randomness? That's where the debate is. To me, what I'm looking for is something that will take a series of waves and return them at different angles and smoothly across the room - 'dispersing' things in such a way as to minimize interactions, cancellations, force more 'bounces' before returning to the listener, etc. A poly does this - as does a QRD. The fact that the poly is not random but relatively predictable to me is not a drawback. However, to get a QRD to work at the frequencies that the poly I described above will work at - it would have to be VERY large and VERY deep.

The one place I find particularly useful for a poly is high on the walls if you don't have bass absorbers up there (horrors!). In small rooms where they already have the 4 vertical corners covered, still have some slap going, and can't afford much more Mid/HF absorbtion, a foot high (or whatever), 6-8" deep poly running the length of the room is a very cheap, easy, effective way to help spread things out a bit and tame the slap. QRD's would work too - but they're a lot more expensive to make and take a lot more time.
 
Guys,

When this came up recently somewhere else I pointed out what I consider to be another problem with polys. In a large room you might be able to have one really big poly as Bryan suggested. Say, 12 feet wide by 6 feet high, sticking out 2 feet or more from the wall at the peak. I'd think that having any less depth than that won't reduce comb filtering enough. But in small rooms this simply is not practical. So then you need a bunch of smaller units like this, looking down from above:

UUUU

Even if each convex surface were a perfect diffusor, the problem is the concave sections in between. These focus the sound and negate any diffusion you got from the convex portions. The concave sections also resonate which colors the sound.

One of these days I'm going to track down someone near me who has a bunch of QRD diffusors, and build a bunch of polys from cardboard cement forms, and run some real tests. So far all I have to go by is what I've heard by ear when comparing these different styles, but I'm pretty sure a few ETF tests will confirm what I'm sure I hear.

--Ethan
 
When you have multiply poly's like that - you do indeed have some areas in between that are not convex - but - they're not concave either. Concave is like this

U - not like this V (pardon the upside-downness, turn your monitor over to see what I mean :D )

The curves coming together at the intersection of the polys will not concentrate the sound like a concave surface will. In fact, they actually act to provide some cancellations in that gap yielding some absorbtion - similar to how the well absorbers work. The rest provides excellent disperson from a wave hitting one curved surface and then coming off another one of potentially (and probably) a different radius and most certainly at a different place on the arc.
 
hmm the multiple poly sounds interesting. On the issue of the convex area I remember D Martin had some small poly's about 4' wide and 2' high in multiple
columns(rows?) in a horizontal sense. The rows were staggered to the previous:

U U U U
U U U
U U U U
U U U

If you can picture that :D
 
Bryan,

> but - they're not concave either. <

I know, but it sounds the same and still focuses the sound. A few years ago I tried a stack of soda cans as a diffusor. But the sound that came back was noticeably worse than a bare wall. That's when I realized the problem caused by what's between the convex portions.

--Ethan
 
A few years ago I tried a stack of soda cans as a diffusor.
You should have used an array of Coke bottles. :D Mass, different radii polys,Hemholz Resonators, ...shoot, diffusion AND absorption..what more can you ask for Ethan? :p
 
ROTFL...

I can see why soda cans wouldn't sound very good. They're metal, they have their own resonance up pretty high, and they're such a small radius that they're basically ineffective on any frequency below probably 1kHz or even higher.

Try setting some sand filled 55 gallon drums against the back wall ;)
 
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