About mic shootouts, tests, etc...

[JuliánFernández]

I´m a pro drummer. That´s what i do to live. I´m also into recording, i like it a lot, and i visit the forum almost everyday.

There is something that bugs me and i wanna share it with you guys...

A lot of times i check the shootouts, or the review of some new mic/pre/comp/whatever; and when i hear the clips (when it comes to drums), the player is -at best- not-so-pro...

I inmediatly lost any kind of interest of that test. What´s the point? If the player has not reach certain level of consistency on his/her playing (touch), there´s no point on analizing how good the preamp is. If the player is a newbie, a Neve Portico will give you a "newbie sound"...

When you hear a record or a song (on the radio, on cds), sometimes you wish you could record your drummer with those AKG C12s and a couple of U87s... well, you´re missing the point.

I hear lame recording made on Circo Beat Studio (Great studio with SSL, Neve, API, all highend stuff). And there´s nothing that gear can do if the source is weak. I can´t stress enough how much different may sound the same snare (or drumkit) when is played by a great drummer...

My point is, don´t spend much time hearing how a pre sounds on a clip (even those clips on listeningsessions are far from great), and try to recognize great players. Great players with cut through the record with some crappy mics and a Alto console. Trust me.

So, try to record the best musicians that you can afford, and you´ll be much more happier with your mixes. Maybe if your drummer is not that great, save some bucks, use some sound replacer (drummagog), and stop wasting your time asking your gear to give the sound that is not giving you the drums.

JMHO.

Cheers,
J.

 

[kid klash]

The bottom line is ALWAYS the same... garbage in, garbage out. The talent of the performer is always more important than the gear used to record them.

 

[The Wink Licks]

I was pretty sure everyone knew this already?

You know...crap in = crap out...

 

[JuliánFernández]

That´s true... but i doubt that most people can tell the difference.
I can tell you that the listeningsessions drum clips was recorded by a no-so-great drummer... I´d never heard someone telling, "hey, forget about that, that groove won´t cut it anyway..."

"Garbahe in, garbage out" is not the point. The point is, do YOU know when you´re recording "garbage"!?

 

[andyhix]

Point on the "shootouts" taken. However, don't loose sight of the fact that HOMErecording.com is the name of the place. You have to expect a variety of talent and skill levels. Some of us enjoy playing even if we suck. Saving money to replace ourselves or our bandmates with session musicians or machines doesn't appeal to me (nor likely most others). The whole point of learning about HOME Recording is to get the best out of what your budget and your skill will allow, generally doing as much as possible yourself. That is what we enjoy, so that's what we'll continue to do.

Cheers!

 

[JuliánFernández]

You´re right, andyhix. I do have my homestudio too, and i understand your point; but i´m offering my point to those who wanna become better HOMEproducers/HOMEengineers.
I just wanna share my point... If someone thinks that saying "crap in, crap out" is what i said, i was misunderstood.
Try developing your ears... Is that groove, guitar part, bass licks, strong enough? Can i make it sound good?
I think everyon spend money trying to make their recording *better*. Well, maybe is time to change that point of view.

 

[chessrock]

Aside from the fact that a professional drummer is just going to play a heck of a lot better ...

... professional drummers generally make pretty significant investments in their kit. It's not unusual for a pro drummer to have a crash or ride cymbal that cost him more money than the most expensive microphone in your collection.

And there's very good reason for that. Money invested in the kit will pay very large dividends in terms of sound quality and fidelity of your recording (making the engineer look better than he is), whereas money spent in the signal chain will make relatively small differences.

You can a/b two mics and hear a clear preference most of the time, no question. But switch out a cymbal or change a head? Forget about it. The difference can be so completely drastic that you'll wonder why you even spend 1% of your brain energy on mic selection. The 10% improvement you might get switching out mics will be completely dwarfed by the 80% improvement that you'll hear with a better kit.

People who post questions like "what mic should I use to get better crack out of my snare?" or "what mic pre should I use to make my cymbals less harsh?" and so on are stuck in flawed mentality ... most likely because they have yet to hear what a good kit truly sounds like.

 

[andyhix]

Try developing your ears... Is that groove, guitar part, bass licks, strong enough? Can i make it sound good?
I think everyon spend money trying to make their recording *better*. Well, maybe is time to change that point of view.

Yep. I get ya and definitely agree that developing ears is critical and often overlooked. And of course it helps to have a decent environment to listen in. Interestingly, I think newbies also wrongly assume that room treatment is a low priority.

All I was trying to say is don't have too high of hopes for the quality of sounds you hear here, as it will be all over the board (no pun intended).

 

[leddy]

You can a/b two mics and hear a clear preference most of the time, no question. But switch out a cymbal or change a head? Forget about it. The difference can be so completely drastic that you'll wonder why you even spend 1% of your brain energy on mic selection. The 10% improvement you might get switching out mics will be completely dwarfed by the 80% improvement that you'll hear with a better kit.

People who post questions like "what mic should I use to get better crack out of my snare?" or "what mic pre should I use to make my cymbals less harsh?" and so on are stuck in flawed mentality ... most likely because they have yet to hear what a good kit truly sounds like.

This should be a sticky, or possibly make it so someone has to type this 100 times before they can post here.

I have the pleasure of playing about 150 gigs a year with a drummer who has the best kit I have ever heard. I'd have to really work to f--k up his sound on a recording.

 

[JuliánFernández]

Aside from the fact that a professional drummer is just going to play a heck of a lot better ...

... professional drummers generally make pretty significant investments in their kit. It's not unusual for a pro drummer to have a crash or ride cymbal that cost him more money than the most expensive microphone in your collection.

And there's very good reason for that. Money invested in the kit will pay very large dividends in terms of sound quality and fidelity of your recording (making the engineer look better than he is), whereas money spent in the signal chain will make relatively small differences.

You can a/b two mics and hear a clear preference most of the time, no question. But switch out a cymbal or change a head? Forget about it. The difference can be so completely drastic that you'll wonder why you even spend 1% of your brain energy on mic selection. The 10% improvement you might get switching out mics will be completely dwarfed by the 80% improvement that you'll hear with a better kit.

People who post questions like "what mic should I use to get better crack out of my snare?" or "what mic pre should I use to make my cymbals less harsh?" and so on are stuck in flawed mentality ... most likely because they have yet to hear what a good kit truly sounds like.

I´m feeling a lot better! That´s the kind of posts that i would like to see more often. You DID see my point, Chess... thanks for adding your input.
So guys... i believe that a lot of you are musicians, right? Well, try to play with the greatest musicians that you can find, develop your inner clock, work with a metronome, expand your vocabulary... then press Record, and you´ll be amazed of how huge the difference is...

 

[kid klash]

That´s true... but i doubt that most people can tell the difference.
I can tell you that the listeningsessions drum clips was recorded by a no-so-great drummer... I´d never heard someone telling, "hey, forget about that, that groove won´t cut it anyway..."

"Garbahe in, garbage out" is not the point. The point is, do YOU know when you´re recording "garbage"!?

Glad to hear you're an accomplished drummer with good gear, but maybe you missed the point of the clips.

I think the point of the listeningsessions drum clips was to illustrate how a mic sounds, not how great the drummer was.

An art supply store clerk can demonstrate how two tubes of paint differ in appearance when applied to a canvas, regardless of how talented an artist they are. Same thing applies to the listeningsessions clips... the drummer doesn't need to be top flight for the listener to hear the difference between mics.

 

[mrhotapples]

He has a point. Crappy drummers hit crappy, and they don't ususally know how to tune.

But the point of mic tests is to show how that crappy performance sounds going through various mics, so point NOT so valid in my opinion.

 

[JuliánFernández]

He has a point. Crappy drummers hit crappy, and they don't ususally know how to tune.

But the point of mic tests is to show how that crappy performance sounds going through various mics, so point NOT so valid in my opinion.

Unless you´re planning to record crappy players (hopefully you don´t if you wanna spend several bucks on that kind of pres), there´s no point on listening that clips. Great players makes the drumkit sound different. Maybe you don´t see that a different player might make you prefer another pre.

The tubes of paint example is not right. A crappy player is like a dirty canvas... An old and dusty canvas... now, how are you gonna see red over that thing?

 

[boingoman]

Unless you´re planning to record crappy players (hopefully you don´t if you wanna spend several bucks on that kind of pres), there´s no point on listening that clips. Great players makes the drumkit sound different. Maybe you don´t see that a different player might make you prefer another pre.

The tubes of paint example is not right. A crappy player is like a dirty canvas... An old and dusty canvas... now, how are you gonna see red over that thing?

I totally disagree. It doesn't matter what you are recording if it's for comparisons. It could be a donkey kicking a barn door.

 

[JuliánFernández]

I totally disagree. It doesn't matter what you are recording if it's for comparisons. It could be a donkey kicking a barn door.

Yeah, if you wanna record donkeys kicking barn doors, it makes sense. If you wanna record pro musicians, you´ll be safer if you listen to pro musicians´ clips.
A great player have another TONE, timbre, sound... the pres will shine in another way.
If i have to explain that, maybe you´r ears tells another story about how a drumkit should sound.

 

[mshilarious]

Sorry to intrude, but I feel somewhat strongly about this.

I can listen to a recording of white noise and know pretty much how a mic will sound on different sources. It's an acquired taste, but for me it's a useful skill.

The great fallacy hear is that you can only work on one thing at a time. That's not true. You can practice your drumming and your engineering at the same time. That's what's nifty about this hobby.

On the other hand, jack of all trades, master of none. Ronan Chris Murphy made the point some years ago that recording was a complete waste of time for a band interested in making it. He's right, but most people here (myself included) have no interest in making it. The flip side is no one interested in professional recording should waste time improving their instrumental skills. A rudimentary knowledge of every instrument you're going to record is very helpful, and it is true that engineers are too often better musicians than their clients.

Still, if you can't hear the difference between a mediocre drummer using two different mics/pres/etc., then comparisons are useful for improving your listening skills.

I do agree with chess that if you have money to spend, spend it on better instruments. If anybody out there wants to sell me a Zildjian K Custom Ride . . .

 

[boingoman]

If i have to explain that, maybe you´r ears tells another story about how a drumkit should sound.

Dude,

Unless you can actually hear the instrument in question live, you have no basis to judge from when comparing samples. All you can say pretty much is how two samples differ from each other.

You can't say "AHA! That one sounds more like the drums." BECAUSE YOU HAVE NEVER HEARD THE DRUMS IN QUESTION. ONLY DIFFERENT CLIPS OF THEM RECORDED THROUGH DIFFERENT MICS.

I get your point, but it doesn't totally relate to listening to comparison clips.

 

[chessrock]

I can see both sides of this equation.

To the degree that it can help point out some relative differences between the mics, I will concur that the sound source isn't of great relevence, provided they are consistant in sound so as to provide a valid comparison.

On the flip side, however ... I think there is the potential for the results to be of much less value to a great number of people, given certain circumstances. I'll pose a hypothetical example, here: Suppose you have a recording of someone bashing an open hi-hat (with a hole in it that he bought from a garage sale) using a lead pipe, and you're using that as your test subject for comparison.

Now let's suppose you're comparing two different mics on that source. One of them is a cheap, veiled, muddy-sounding piece of junk (mic A) with no detail to it whatsoever. Now let's suppose the other test subject (mic B) is a very honest-sounding mic that captures everything in stunning detail.

Which one would you rather hear?

In contrast, if you were using a really slick-sounding hi-hat being played with precision by a professional with a really soft and crisp hit ... it would be so obvious that mic B is picking up all of the detail and precision while mic A is just mucking everything up. I think what Julian is saying is that most mics will sound vastly different on trash can lids than they do on real cymbals.
.

 

[scrubs]

Everyone sucks to somebody's ears. If I were recording the London Symphony, someone would complain that the comparisons are not valid to recording their local shitty emocoremetal band. If I were tracking Shakira, someone would complain that her voice is annoying, and someone else would post pictures of her ass and giggle.

Point being, if you don't find the comparisons useful, don't listen. Someone else may find them very helpful.

 

[JuliánFernández]

Sorry to intrude, but I feel somewhat strongly about this.

I can listen to a recording of white noise and know pretty much how a mic will sound on different sources. It's an acquired taste, but for me it's a useful skill.

The great fallacy hear is that you can only work on one thing at a time. That's not true. You can practice your drumming and your engineering at the same time. That's what's nifty about this hobby.

On the other hand, jack of all trades, master of none. Ronan Chris Murphy made the point some years ago that recording was a complete waste of time for a band interested in making it. He's right, but most people here (myself included) have no interest in making it. The flip side is no one interested in professional recording should waste time improving their instrumental skills. A rudimentary knowledge of every instrument you're going to record is very helpful, and it is true that engineers are too often better musicians than their clients.

Still, if you can't hear the difference between a mediocre drummer using two different mics/pres/etc., then comparisons are useful for improving your listening skills.

I do agree with chess that if you have money to spend, spend it on better instruments. If anybody out there wants to sell me a Zildjian K Custom Ride . . .

Ok, about the "I can listen to a recording of white noise and know pretty much how a mic will sound on different sources", i know VERY little people that can say something like that, and those people certainly don´t need to use listeningsessions to know how a Portico sounds on a snare... I believe most people that use that kind of reference (mic shootout), don´t have much experience with gear... (at least, high end gear). So maybe you´re not an standard in that way...

I didn´t say that someone can´t improve their musical and engineering skill at the same time... i beleive that it´s possible.

I have to disagree with the "jack of all trades, master of none" comment. Many, many succesful musicians became great producers... Anyway, i was encouraging to musicians on this site to spend more time on growing as a musicians than listening clips, and buying stuff hoping for better sounding mixes...

For me, it´s simple. I wanna play and record with great musicians. Let´s not forget that we are recording MUSIC... Is not about the pres, is about the music!!! I´ll trade every single piece of high end equipment in the world for crappy gear and top notch musicians.
Gear is tool, not an end. Music is the end.

Clips of sloopy playing are useless unless you´re planinng to record sloopy players. I certainly don´t.


boingoman, i didn´t understand your post. I know that that clips was played by a so-so drummer. I don´t need to hear the drum live to say that.
All the info i can get with those clips is "with a so-so drummer, i like the xxx best"... I don´t have interest in record that kind of drummer, so i just don´t care about them. Seems like a lot of people do.

The thing that strike me the most is that no one talks about it... Everyone seems to OK with the low level of professionalism (sp?) show in most shootouts.