A Thread to Continue discussing Tim Gillett's Recollection of Another Discussion

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Tim Gillett said:
What is your feeling about that state of affairs? Would you like it to change? Would you really look forward to the day when digital was on a par with analog tape's transparency and you could happily embrace the conveniences of digital without the penalty of compromised digital audio quality?

Of course! And I think I speak for many people here in that regard. I'm an artist/composer first. I’ve said this before, but digital recording was the new, cool thing of my day. I went a long way down the digital road before I turned back. I bet I used the term “CD quality” more than anyone back in the day.

Who would not want it to work as advertised? Many of us will always love the smell of a new reel of 456 tape, but as long as the music doesn’t stink the recording medium doesn’t mater.

When that day comes that digital or whatever it is does the job, I’ll bring the beer (figuratively speaking, since I don’t drink… eh, I’ll bring the beer anyway, as I’m sure someone will drink it). In the mean time I’ll use Pro Tools for messing around and tape for serious recording.

And just because I don’t drink doesn’t mean I don’t know not to bring Schlitz.
 

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themaddog said:
With all due respect, I don't think transparancy is the correct term for this description. However, I've no subsitute terminology to offer.

All I can relate is that different mediums will always sound unique to one another. A vinyl record sounds different than tape, which is going to differ from a compact disc.

To this end, different tapes have differing sonic qualities. This is one of the neat things about analog!

At the same time, although digital should have more consistancy (whether it's a 16-bit/44.4 khz .wav file stored on a CD, DVD, hard disk, etc.), the difference in sound varies greatly on the playback mechanism: some CD players sound significantly worse than others, playing back the exact same CD.

My whole point is true "transparancy" will never exist, on any format. Something will always hinder this perception of transparancy, somewhere in the signal chain. This could be the medium itself, or any other factor.

-MD

Agreed, it is not transparentcy. There is something else at work that we do not name at this time. I've tended to relate it to hi freq phase anomolies.

Rupert Neve talks about a Japanese research paper where the brain patterns of people were observed when listening to digital and analog recordings. It was observed that the brain patterns when listening to analog were those of a person relaxing and that when listen to digital the patterns more resembled an angry / agitated state.

This is is in line with real world observations where people say that they become restless and annoyed when listening to CDs.

I know artists who frequently listen to very scrratched records and never hear the scratches. Not what you would call transparent.

And while I think about it I do remember listening many times to a severly warped Fire Sign Theater. (Dont crush that Dwarf, Hand me the Pliers and Waiting for the Electricition or Someone Like Him). To this day I think that all firesign should have a chut chUT ChoooO in them.
 
evm1024 said:
Rupert Neve talks about a Japanese research paper where the brain patterns of people were observed when listening to digital and analog recordings. It was observed that the brain patterns when listening to analog were those of a person relaxing and that when listen to digital the patterns more resembled an angry / agitated state.

.


haha, that's funny. Is he the one who created the Neve console? Is he still alive? Pardon my ignorance. I wonder if they were listening to Rap. They should have put some Bread on :D
 
I feel the world is full of sounds and frequencies which are above and boyond the cutoffs digital imposes and this creates problems for the brain. It interprets this as unnatural, that something is way off ....

That we cannot consciously hear and in some cases measure the extreme high frequencies (and sounds), for example, it doesn't mean they're not there and are not perceived by our brain on a subconscious level.
 
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cjacek said:
I feel the world is full of sounds and frequencies which are above and boyond the cutoffs digital imposes and this creates problems for the brain. It interprets this as unnatural, that something is way off ....

That we cannot consciously hear and in some cases measure the extreme high frequencies (and sounds), for example, it doesn't mean they're not there and are not perceived by our brain on a subconscious level.

That brings to mind the whole specification game. The list we find in every brochure and manual – S/N, frequency response, dynamic range, etc is not the entire story. I agree there are things we can’t or don’t know to measure, but we still sense.

It also reminds me of one of my favorite Tom Scholz quotes, which I’ve already posted in this forum 10 times since 2003, but what the hell… why not 11? :D

"The instant you digitize a signal, you destroy the phase-angle relationship between the high frequencies and the lows… Phase-angle distortion has been with us since the day 3M introduced their incredibly expensive, 15kHz digital-recording deck. I still remember the famous quote from their marketing department: ‘There is an introduction of phase-angle distortion, but the human ear can’t hear it.’

I find that so hysterical because the human ear can hear things we can’t measure yet. And the ear does use phase-angle information to determine the location sounds originate from, and the space within which you’re standing when you hear those sounds. Simply put, that’s what tells you, ‘Oh, that sound came from over there.’ The end result is that digitized music destroys the spatial characteristics of the music.

... The two advantages of digital are that it’s cheap, and it gives you lots of features. As far as sound quality goes, digital is always worse."

--Tom Scholz, Guitar Player - May 2003
 
Tim B,
I've not read this quote before so just as well you posted it for the 11th time.
Are you happy to have the ideas in it tossed around?

I'm a bit rusty on this stuff so pardon me if what I say is not 100% accurate, but I know he's introduced two concepts of phase which are not the same.

1. Phase relationship of highs to lows. It's not just digital that distorts this. All manner of analog gear does it too. The tape recorder was known from the start to time shift the highs from the lows but as I recall, humans are relatively insensitive to THIS type of phase distortion and I guess the proof of that is our acceptance of it in all sorts of recorded and amplified music over many decades.

2. Phase angle information of left and right higher frequencies is critical in a stereo or binaural sense. We get part of our sense of left/right location from the time differences of sounds taking just that little bit longer to reach the ear furthest from the sound.

A good analog tape, (or digital) recorder will not destroy this (#2) information even though it has shifted the (#1) information, if it has shifted it the same amount for left and right channels and so the sense of stereo image is preserved. (bass frequencies are quite different here and we are poor at judging direction in these frequencies anyway.)

Correct me if I'm wrong here but my understanding is that just about any electronic amplifier or eq or recorder can change the #1 phase but so long as both left and right channels do it equally (which we hope they do) the stereo image will remain intact. Tom Scholz was correct to say digital time shifts the highs from the lows. He just omitted to to that so does just about every other electronic amp, including analog tape recorders which are full of them!

This, Tim, is perhaps the breakthrough in clarification I have been waiting for. Can talk openly about this issue?

regards, Tim G
 
...that day comes that digital or whatever it is does the job..
And so does the day when the sky fell down to the earth. :)
As one stand down on the earth and looks up at the sky it seems to be possible.
**********
I'd put it this way: shall there be a switch - so be it so, as long as the switch stays "ON" during the process of memorizing and recalling of a process..
Digital technology in its core ignores that "principal" while heavily relys on presumption of human inferiorities. It creates the gap and fills it with artificial tar that comes from arrogant yet creative lunacy of a designer.
Digital Recording is a technology that demeans the audience, takes over the show and pronounces: "It's OK to flip the switch "OFF" as long as nobody notices it. And for those who do notice we will play balalaika in the lobby during the blackout."
:D :mad: :D
**********
I had to pink-out the "or whatever it is", becuse as I understand that's the whole different story. :)
and, btw, I do understand, that there are "lucky ones" out there who enjoy balalaika, and so don't mind it :D :D :D
Let's rock. Hit IT, Ladies!
 

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Sound is not light.....

.....ears are not eyes.

What I mean by that is that there is not a retina of the ear that forms an image of the sound source. Vision is easy when compaired to hearing.

In a dark room if you briefly flash a light you can see the image of the room >that is in your vision< and perhaps a glow from the wall behind you.

In that same room in the dark if you give a single ping of audio you have a good idea of the size and shape of the room. That there is a couch behind you absorbing the sound and that the floor has carpet on it and the door to the left is open to the outside and the one onthe right is open to a long hall.

Your brain processes the incident sound and the reflected sound (or lack of) from every surface in the room and some beyone the room.

Your brain does not process (exclusivly) the phase angle between your left and right ears but all phase angles for all reflections and incident.

It gets more crazy. Your brain takes a 300 Hz harmonic and a 350 Hz harmonic and with the help of a 3 KHz harmonic figures out that there is a tone at 55 KHz. (the numbers are made up but the reality is fact). And uses the changes in phase to understand the things around us inthe sound field.

We tend to look (ah vision again) at sound as a simple thing like vision. But the reality is that sound is very complex and not well understood. Heck your skin plays a part in hearing (mores so than it does in vision).

Digital
 
I really should know better than to post on this thread in this group, but hey, it's late and I'm tired, so I'll share a few thoughts.

As someone who has been recording almost exclusively with analog gear for about 23 years, much of that time with the same generation of 3M gear Tom Scholz loves so well, I would still have to say that, from my point of view (and probably no one else's around here, which is cool), this thread is kind of off the mark, though I'm sure it's reassuring to most of the folks who hang out some on this group.

Personally, I find my DAW way more musically productive for composition and I understand both the analog and digital side well enough and pretty much avoid doing anything really stupid, which is really crucial. I really like the recordings I make on my 3M decks, and I really like the recordings I make on the DAW, and I also like starting a few tracks on the 3M and porting over to the DAW to do more tracks and mix. Plus, more tracks on the DAW means I can do a lot more true stereo tracking, which is very useful musically in the way I record.

Now, my M-56 was pretty cool because things sounded better coming out than going in, and the same is surprisingly still true of the M-79s, too. But let's not forget what the signal goes through inside a tape machine. In my case, it goes through a big ol' pair of UTC transformers, one on the way in and then one on the way out, too. I think that iron is a big part of the sound of the older machines like 3M and Ampex and the early MCIs. Now the record side of things is pretty darn linear and the magnetization of the tape is pretty well controlled and the gap is pretty small. Playback, on the other hand, is tough. The geometry is harder to perfect. There's some nonlinearities in there. Also, the 3Ms were the first to really knock down the annoying scrape flutter up in the audio band, but the later Studer machines and the ATR series did just as well. But still there is some wow and flutter in the subaudio band and in the audio band. Then of course, there is nonlinearity as the magnetization level starts to get up towards the high end of the curve. That's what gives us that nice compression and a mild reduction in peak to RMS ratio. You can add processing, but digital recording itself should be and generally is very linear by comparison, at least w.r.t. flutter of all varieties and level response. Now, in the case of the M-56, it had some pretty darn mature analog technology inside with all the old discrete class A electronics running on +/- 28V rails, but the M-79s are filled with the much loathed "741" opamp chips and I still think they sound amazing. Go figure!

OK, these familiar artifacts of tape are useful tools in recording and sound just fine. If you track to digital, you won't have these characteristics by default and the recording techniques must adapt. One critical failure of a lot of newbies is that they don't really understand analog audio very well, and without that understanding, you can't really understand digital very well nor make a really high quality recording. Analog is much more intuitive. One of the advantages of analog gear is that every channel tends to have a useful SVI (VU) style meter that is musically useful. Newbies tend to start with digital and think in terms of peaks, peak meters and dBFS. That doesn't have much to do with musical level practices. The intuitive thing about analog (at least in the USA) is the notion of 0 VU based upon a meter with a 300 msec time constant. With digital, you should still meter with something that has a VU-like relation to the music. As far as the peaks and levels go, you should simply set a conservative reference level to make sure you are nowhere near the peak of 0 dBFS and otherwise forget about the whole idea and stick with analog level practices and metering (again, IMHO).

But getting back to the big picture, I think there are more important things going on than anything relating to inherent analog and digital sonic differences, per se.

I think a useful analogy is how we currently relate, as a modern society, to food and drink and why we have epidemics of obesity, diabetes and related illnesses. As ELP said in a darn good song, "you and I are yesterday's answers..." Our current physiology is the answer to the past, say a couple hundred thousand years ago, and is out of sync with our technology. We are victims of our own advertising, clearly, but what causes this? Our dietary responses are based upon a situation where access to salt, sugar and fat is sporadic and limited, at best. But, due to our current technology and use of resources, many folk have easy access to those three at every meal. Only knowledge and a determined act of will can lead to healthy eating habits in that environment. It requires purposely going against the grain of common dietary practice, perhaps in much the same way we analog recordists go against the grain of common digital audio practice. But that same knowledge and act of will is possible within digital audio practice.

The digital technology presents the same kind of danger that our easily available food does. Back when processing was expensive, difficult and required expertise, its use was appropriately restrained and most tracks were pretty authentic. Most everyone, even folk who aren't insane like me about this stuff, intuitively have a meter for authenticity. A lot of people's meters are reading low these days and that's where a lot of this dissatisfaction comes from. But, IMHO, it comes first from soul-less, uncreative, crappy music put together by cut and paste and not from practicing till you can actually play the song with skill and emotion. It also comes from a pretty caustic music business environment that selects for homogeneity and lowest common denominator. In the actual audio realm, it comes first from across the board abuses of digital technology, such as abysmal level practices, overuse of compression and all kinds of other processing with no real understanding of what that does or what good, clean tracks ought to sound like. The actual differences resulting from innate limitations in the digital process are, in my opinion, second or by this stage perhaps even third order effects of much less importance. As I said in the beginning, with the current evolution of 24-bit digital tracks and the proper use of dither at the end of the process, its quite possible to do excellent sounding recordings that communicate the music, art and emotion as well as any mere electronic medium can communicate something as complex and rich as a real, musical experience. However, the temptations are so great that it takes a lot of knowledge (including a firm knowledge of analog audio practices) and an act of will to get there.

Whew! All right folks, flame on, but don't expect me to fight anyone on this topic... I know that opinions can run strong on this issue, and you all don't need to be "set straight" by anyone nor does anyone need to agree with me in the slightest on this. We will all continue to make the best music and recordings we can, however we do that, and I will still be rolling tape from time to time along with spewing those bits.

Cheers,

Otto
 
To me music recording/production is a mixture of not limited by a reason passion with non-requested yet unavoidable accumulation of knowledge and experience. Also, sound manipulation (processing) is a core part it.
My miserable experience has happened to reveal a rather unexpected "nuance" in respect to application of digital technology in the process, which is: the desire for it is in reverse proportion with the level of obtained knowledge and experience about it, another words, the more you know the less you want it (or practically speaking: the more you know, the more you try to avoid it).

As for "it's all about content, first" , I'd say this: an untalented clueless producer who is yet workoholic may actually spit out a pretty amazing and exciting passage from time to time, but he/she MUST stay away from digital technology. On the other end, recording a once-in-a-lifetime performance of a true genius digitally while denying it a chance to be recorded and produced through the process based on "real physical commodity" (analog that is) is a shameless and cruel crime against humanity. :p
 
ofajen said:
But getting back to the big picture, I think there are more important things going on than anything relating to inherent analog and digital sonic differences, per se.

Holy Toledo, Otto! We really wouldn’t mind if you posted a little every once in a while rather than say it all at once. :D But I think I managed to gather the key point you were making.

Yes, there are other things, and the number of people that don't know what they’re doing is certainly greater than the number of those who do. However, that doesn't mean there are no sonic differences between the recording mediums. It only means those differences can be overshadowed by other concerns.

As we peel away the layers of a bad production, I think we all agree there will be an assortment of issues. Each must be identified and remedied. Fixing one will only resolve the one and in so doing reveal the next.

If I can’t see the sun, my windows may be dirty, but the sky may also be overcast. Cleaning the windows won’t change the weather.

IMO, all other things being equal the recording mediums still aren't equal. The difference between analog tape recording and digital sampling is more like the weather. The only thing you can do is move somewhere else, like from the cold digital north to the warm analog south.

We've discussed the issues you’ve raised quite often on this form. They are important elements, but like the recording medium itself, they aren’t the whole picture either. ;)
 
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Sorry to just jump in here, but I could've sworn Tim made an excellent point that I assume he edited out (because I can't seem find it now....)

But to paraphrase, the art of recording is what's really being lost in the digital realm.

I began my audio journey in the analog world, and the lessons I learned there have been invaluable to me while making the transition to digital. In fact, I haven't really given up on analog - I really want to get my Tascam 38 back into working condition so I can make the best of both worlds.
 
MadAudio said:
...so I can make the best of both worlds.
MD! :) Do the best of the world you live in and that will do it. Forget about other two. :D
 
Beck said:
But I think I managed to gather the key point you (Otto) were making.
Me too. !!!!
(took me a while, but I think I've got it) :D
 

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evm1024 said:
.....ears are not eyes.


Your brain does not process (exclusivly) the phase angle between your left and right ears but all phase angles for all reflections and incident.



Digital

There were two types of phase angles I discussed.

First, the delaying of highs re lows when they go through amplifiers or even a simple electronic component. This is well known and hardly controversial.

The second is the delaying of a sound because it is further from one ear than the other. It is "delayed" because it has further to travel. The ear and brain are quite good at processing this, at least with higher, not bass frequencies, and even with complex sounds, which actually work better. I guess because the ear has more info.

To talk of the brain processing "other" phase angles is confusing and suggests you dont understand what we just discussed. Sure there ARE "other" phase angles in the sense that we live in 3 dimensional space, BUT WE ONLY HAVE TWO EARS!
We are poor at working out the vertical location of sounds because we dont have an upper and lower ear! That's why the modern sound reinforcement practice of locating a central cluster speaker ABOVE the lecturn is so satisfying to our brain because it seems to be emanating from the person at the lecturn. Or put another way, we dont receive any conflicting information, though we would if we had upper and lower ears!

Now how does this relate to analog tape and digital sound? Not very well. I'm trying to clear up the mess as a prelude to an attempt to get back to that issue...
Tim G
 
Many phases

Tim Gillett said:
There were two types of phase angles I discussed.

First, the delaying of highs re lows when they go through amplifiers or even a simple electronic component. This is well known and hardly controversial.

The second is the delaying of a sound because it is further from one ear than the other. It is "delayed" because it has further to travel. The ear and brain are quite good at processing this, at least with higher, not bass frequencies, and even with complex sounds, which actually work better. I guess because the ear has more info.

To talk of the brain processing "other" phase angles is confusing and suggests you dont understand what we just discussed. Sure there ARE "other" phase angles in the sense that we live in 3 dimensional space, BUT WE ONLY HAVE TWO EARS!
We are poor at working out the vertical location of sounds because we dont have an upper and lower ear! That's why the modern sound reinforcement practice of locating a central cluster speaker ABOVE the lecturn is so satisfying to our brain because it seems to be emanating from the person at the lecturn. Or put another way, we dont receive any conflicting information, though we would if we had upper and lower ears!

Now how does this relate to analog tape and digital sound? Not very well. I'm trying to clear up the mess as a prelude to an attempt to get back to that issue...
Tim G

Hi Tim,

And yet in the real world we do know when a sound is above or below us. we are not just limited to the plane that our ears sit on. Sure it is not as precise as in the horizontal plane but we do resolve up and down.

This is very hard to reproduce in sterio....

It is you who have misunderstood here. I have granted you the phase shifts that happen in electronic equipment. I have granted you that these phase shifts happed at different rates based on their frequency. I have granted you that we do not have 3 ears. I have granted you these things by not objecting to your assertions.

You have limited the actuallity of psycoacustics to those things that we engineers can measure and therefore understand fairly well.

But there is something that we do hear, some processing that happens that is more than just the differiential path between the source and our ears.

Do you hear a point sound source as a point source or as a line source? As a point source of course not as a line. And yet the phase is constant left ear to right ear anywhere along a line. The fact is that your ear does know the verticle angle with some precision based on how it enters your ear as well as many other things that we do not understand very well.

But I say again. Your ears are not your eyes. That point source has a direct path to your ears and an infinite series of reflected paths each with their own phase relationship to the incident path and to each other. Our brain processes all of these and Knows.

The argument between difital and analog is not about first order phenomona.

You made this statement:
------
To talk of the brain processing "other" phase angles is confusing and suggests you dont understand what we just discussed. Sure there ARE "other" phase angles in the sense that we live in 3 dimensional space, BUT WE ONLY HAVE TWO EARS!
------
I had a bit of a problem in deciding how to respond to it. Your confusion by it and failure to understand it could be an indication of my failure in understanding but on the other hand it could just be indicitave of your lack of information and understanding of how we process complex signal groups.

A single ping is reflected off of every surface and each reflection tells us something about both the source and the multitude of reflection points. Our brains process this even with one ear and deduce information about our environment. Our hearing is so good that we can process in realtime complex sounds.


Our recording technologies removes some of the information that our brain expects to hear and puts some in that is not actually there. Analog and digital have differing levels and types of reductions and additions.

It appears that the modifications that analog does is more easily accepted by the brain.

Perhaps rather than suggest that I do not understand you might consider that I do understand and that indeed I am speaking at a level more complex than you are willing to address.

Cheers
 
EVM,
You're right. I've just seen the light. Your understanding of the entire subject is so much more complex and profound than mine that I simply have to bow down and worship your vast understanding and wisdom.

You must be right because like with all the great geniuses I cannot understand a word you are saying.

Tim G
 
Interesting post EVM, I understood it. We may not have ears on top and bottom, but of course, you can tell a sound coming from 360 degrees in any angle because of reflections also because by deduction. What happens to be missing from the left or right must be coming from somewhere above or below.

There is a Huge glass globe at the Christian Science Museum in Boston. It's a huge sphere you walk through in the middle of on cat walk thing. While inside the Dome theres something that happens with the sound in there , when somebody whispers from the other end it sounds like they are whispering in you ear. It's something to check out.

I have a similar thing that happens in my house which is really frustrating. From my bedroom, when someone makes sounds outside it sometimes sounds like it's inside the house and sounds inside the room sound like they're coming from outside the room. I've gotten used to it now but it's a pretty frustrating thing to have to get used to. I have no idea why it's like that, I've never experienced any thing like it.
 
ears aren't left and right, nor top and bottom, nor anything of that nature :D , they are simply two different ones, that are stationary in relation to each other. :)
 
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