A question for Greg (and anyone else who want's to chime in)

[Bubba po]

I didn't want to divert the thread into a discussion on live sound, but I agree that stage volume on guitars can be a nightmare. But I'm not a particularly loud guitarist. My settings are almost 50/50 on a 100 watt amp - loud, but not terrifying. My amp is at a volume that both myself and the drummer can hear well. My gig volume is pretty much the same as my rehearsal volume - I sometimes turn down a little at rehearsals, but that's generally when the P.A. is rubbish.

In recent times I've only had the "Can you turn down a bit onstage" question once. We had a calm discussion, which went like this:

"Why do you need me to turn down? Am I drowning out the band?"

"No, it sounds good, I'd just like a bit more control"

"If I turn down, the drummer won't hear me, and when he starts spanking his ride cymbal I won't hear me either"

"Well, that's ok, I can put you through the monitors"

"The vocals are coming through the monitors - we need to be able to hear them clearly, without guitar getting in the way".

It became obvious to both of us that his need to "control" was more about him than it was to help the band. There was a domino effect of unsatisfactory workarounds being proposed instead of him just allowing the band to be the band and reinforcing the sound of that band.

I didn't need to turn down, so I didn't.

 

[miroslav]

This is where using the right amp matched to the right cab and speakers can give you some benefits. This is where an attenuator can be a good thing. If you have to be quiet, you can at least still get the mashed power section part of the equation by using an attenuator. I know guys that turn their cabs towards the wall. There are all kinds of ways to make bigger, better sounding amps work in smaller venues.

Right...

...and I think it's kinda obvious, but you shouldn't bring a 100W screamer and a double stack to a coffee house gig.
I mean...if you have to play smaller, quieter venues...opt for the appropriate amp/cab so that you can still drive it, and still have headroom...without the massive volume.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

That's the problem with soundmen - they pretty much all suck. They don't know how to deal with live music. They don't know how to adapt, make things work. Soundmen are the lowest forms of life on the planet. They have no musical talent or skill so the only option they have is to run sound, and they often can't do that either. They're there to drink and scam on girls. I've lost count of how many weak and anemic sounding bands I've heard because they have no stage volume because the soundman cried to "turn it down" and rely on stupid shit like going direct into a PA. Get close to the stage and it's all drums and vocals. Lol. A musician shouldn't have to alter his sound to please a soundman. It's supposed to be the other way around. But for some reason people have let soundmen take control. Fuck that and fuck them.

Evidently all the decent sound people in Texas had smart attacks and left the state.

I am in total agreement (as a once upon a time guitar player) that you need volume to make a guitar sound right. Also, the drums, bass, guitar and anything else with an amp on stage should all be balanced on their own without the PA on.

But venues have other priorities besides guitar tone. If the guitar is louder than the vocals can get without feeding back then it's too loud. If the bartender can't hear drink orders because of the guitar (or because everything else has to be cranked to compete with the guitar) it's too loud. If people won't go within 30 feet of stage it's too loud. If your sound absolutely relies on a volume level that causes problems with the house then you booked your band in the wrong venue.

A good sound person, and they do exist, is there to mediate between the musicians' needs and the needs of the audience and house, not pander to the musicians' egos. Musicians should be able to have a good time playing but not at the expense of the audience. I'm sorry you had some bad experiences with sound people, and I've seen the same stuff you describe, but it's not nearly as universal as you suggest.

 

[Greg_L]

It became obvious to both of us that his need to "control" was more about him than it was to help the band.

That's how they are. Lesser musicians will just go with what the soundman says because they're either dumb or have been conditioned to genuflect at the sight of the mighty soundman, but I know better. I know they are useless flunkees. I know they are lazy slobs. When I'm playing live and a mic falls off my drum kit, and the soundman is nowhere to be found to remedy the problem, it just confirms what I already knew - soundmen are scum. When I have to flag down the bassist to stick my kick mic back into place because the soundman is at the bar, it confirms to me that soundmen are useless tools. He didn't even notice that the kick had vanished from the mains sound. He's drinking with a girl. I don't run live sound, but I've played enough gigs to know better than to listen to their bullshit demands about what I need to do. Just mic me up, you fucking flunkee, and make it work.

 

[RFR]

As to stage volume there is a very simple formula. Match the drummer.

That volume level will get the amp into the "cooking" zone as well.

A sound guy wanting you to turn down below the level of the drummer is just a control freak, or doesn't like your playing.
The drummer, while having "some" control over his volume levels, IS playing an acoustic instrument.
This sets the onstage volume of the band.

You'll notice sound guys are never telling the drummer to turn down.

They just like to pick on guitar players. Lol

 

[Greg_L]

As to stage volume there is a very simple formula. Match the drummer.

That volume level will get the amp into the "cooking" zone as well.

A sound guy wanting you to turn down below the level of the drummer is just a control freak, or doesn't like your playing.
The drummer, while having "some" control over his volume levels, IS playing an acoustic instrument.
This sets the onstage volume of the band.

You'll notice sound guys are never telling the drummer to turn down.

They just like to pick on guitar players. Lol

Exactly. The band should sound balanced with or without mics. That means everyone must match the drummer. It's not rocket science. I know for me, the bands I play with, we could play au natural. We do it all the time at practices, it's no different live. Sound men are the one's that screw everything up with their goofy hang ups stemming from pure laziness.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

That's how they are. Lesser musicians will just go with what the soundman says because they're either dumb or have been conditioned to genuflect at the sight of the mighty soundman, but I know better. I know they are useless flunkees. I know they are lazy slobs. When I'm playing live and a mic falls off my drum kit, and the soundman is nowhere to be found to remedy the problem, it just confirms what I already knew - soundmen are scum. When I have to flag down the bassist to stick my kick mic back into place because the soundman is at the bar, it confirms to me that soundmen are useless tools. He didn't even notice that the kick had vanished from the mains sound. He's drinking with a girl. I don't run live sound, but I've played enough gigs to know better than to listen to their bullshit demands about what I need to do. Just mic me up, you fucking flunkee, and make it work.

Troll.

 

[Greg_L]

Troll.

What? No I'm not. The stuff I'm saying actually happens. It's not trolling. That's really weak of you to go there when you acknowledged that what I'm saying actually happens from you guys. I guess I should expect that kind of blame-game-passing-the-buck from a soundman. It's everyone else's fault. Not the soundguy's!

Seriously, I don't want soundmen to suck. I really don't. But they often do in my experience, and it sucks for everyone. I'm being a little silly about calling them all lazy and shit, but it's just to make my point. I know there are like 4 or 5 good ones out there. Most of them are not good. I do not trust them.

 

[RFR]

Yup. ( to Greg's earlier post)
Most rehearsals you work hard to get that band "mix" right. Often times the only thing miced is the vocals.
That should just transfer to stage.

I cant tell you how many times a sound guy would want to stick a mic in front of my amp in a small room that didnt need that. Then of course he'd want you to turn down.

 

[Greg_L]

Yup. ( to Greg's previous post)
Most rehearsals you work hard to get that band "mix" right. Often times the only thing miced is the vocals.
That should just transfer to stage.

I cant tell you how many times a sound guy would want to stick a mic in front of my amp in a small room that didnt need that. Then of course he'd want you to turn down.

I do understand that lots of bands suck and use shitty sounding gear. I sympathize with soundmen in that regard. I really do. The few that do care must want to blow their brains out having to deal with rank amateurs. It can't be fun being a soundman. I get that they have as many gripes about bands as I do with soundmen. But hey, no one is forcing them to be what they are.

 

[RFR]

It can't be fun being a soundman. I get that they have as many gripes about bands as I do with soundmen.

That is a true statement.

But a good soundman is worth his weight in gold.

I've played in places in LA that not only did a stellar job, but recorded your show if you provided a tape.
Did a damn fine job as well. Live show recordings were also great for band critique and improving your set.

 

[antichef]

Troll.

haha - then this thread would be "A question for Troll"

 

[Greg_L]

That is a true statement.

But a good soundman is worth his weight in gold.

I've played in places in LA that not only did a stellar job, but recorded your show if you provided a tape.
Did a damn fine job as well. Live show recordings were also great for band critique and improving your set.

That's true. There are some good ones, but like with everything else, the bad outweighs the good. I do get excited about playing places where I know the soundguys are good. There are three places in particular that I play pretty regularly that always have good sound and good soundmen. I try to treat those guys with respect and courtesy because I know they care about doing a good job. Too bad those guys can't train the shitty ones. They could make a whole new career out of fixing all the shitty soundmen.

 

[RFR]

A good sound man you always thank and buy him a beer at the end of the show. He'll be happy to see you next time.

 

[Greg_L]

Back to loud amps....

My 5 year old nephew is visiting today. He was curious about all these "radios" in my room, as he calls them.

So I just introduced him to the world of rock and roll. I suspect I'll be getting a bill for his hearing aids pretty soon.

 

[gecko zzed]

That's the problem with soundmen - they pretty much all suck. They don't know how to deal with live music. They don't know how to adapt, make things work. Soundmen are the lowest forms of life on the planet. They have no musical talent or skill so the only option they have is to run sound, and they often can't do that either. They're there to drink and scam on girls. I've lost count of how many weak and anemic sounding bands I've heard because they have no stage volume because the soundman cried to "turn it down" and rely on stupid shit like going direct into a PA. Get close to the stage and it's all drums and vocals. Lol. A musician shouldn't have to alter his sound to please a soundman. It's supposed to be the other way around. But for some reason people have let soundmen take control. Fuck that and fuck them.

This is way too heroic a generalisation for me, even though I know you are exaggerating. I've lost count of the number of bands I've tried to mix who are so deafened by their egos that they cannot hear how crap they are, and think that loudness is a good way of disguising their lack of talent. At one particular venue I was mixing a number of acts. One act came on, turned up, and played deafening rubbish. It emptied the place in a couple of minutes. I pulled the faders down, leaving just the vocal in there. It was beyond redemption.

A musician shouldn't have to alter his sound to please the sound man, they should alter to make themselves sound good. Which is what the soundman tries to do, if it wasn't for pricks of musicians so full of themselves.

I can do heroic generalisations too.

 

[Lt. Bob]

I didn't want to divert the thread into a discussion on live sound, but I agree that stage volume on guitars can be a nightmare. But I'm not a particularly loud guitarist. My settings are almost 50/50 on a 100 watt amp - loud, but not terrifying. My amp is at a volume that both myself and the drummer can hear well. My gig volume is pretty much the same as my rehearsal volume - I sometimes turn down a little at rehearsals, but that's generally when the P.A. is rubbish.

In recent times I've only had the "Can you turn down a bit onstage" question once. We had a calm discussion, which went like this:

"Why do you need me to turn down? Am I drowning out the band?"

"No, it sounds good, I'd just like a bit more control"

"If I turn down, the drummer won't hear me, and when he starts spanking his ride cymbal I won't hear me either"

"Well, that's ok, I can put you through the monitors"

"The vocals are coming through the monitors - we need to be able to hear them clearly, without guitar getting in the way".

It became obvious to both of us that his need to "control" was more about him than it was to help the band. There was a domino effect of unsatisfactory workarounds being proposed instead of him just allowing the band to be the band and reinforcing the sound of that band.

I didn't need to turn down, so I didn't.

I use anywhere from a 15 watt Tiny Terror to a 18-38 watt Mesa Blue Angel to my Mesa Mark V usually set at 45 watts and they're all thru single 12's.
I use whatever's appropriate for the gig.

IF a soundman asks me to turn down I try to find out his reason.
Often it goes like this:
Me: "Am I TOO loud?"
Him : "No, you're not too loud."
Me: "Am I loud enough?"
Him: "Yes you're loud enough but I don't have you in the PA much."
Me: "But I am loud enough? .......... and not TOO loud?"
Him: "Yes."
Me: "Then we're good."

I don't WANT to be TOO loud ..... that sucks and is amateurish.

However, I also don't want to change what I'm doing solely so he can run it into the PA if I'm loud enough.

When it's needed I'm certainly willing to let the soundman control my sound but as long as I'm not too loud I don't like the soundman having total control over me because they don't just control your volume. They control your tonality and how you sound.

I have very specific ideas of how I want my git to sound EQwise and how can I guarantee that's what's going out front if I turn down way low and have him controlling it?

He may have it sounding awesome to his ears but I might would think it sucks.
Since I hear guitars sounding like total crap all the freakin' time ....... I don't think it's unreasonable to be wary of someone else controlling my sound.
There are lots of ways guitars can sound and a lot of different tastes concerning that.

Once again, I'm not saying blast away at stupid volumes regardless of anything.
But as long as I'm loud enough I don't care a lot whether the soundman has much of it in the PA and I don't like ANYone to be able to change my tone which a soundman can definitely do.

As for the good versus bad soundman question.
I see FAR more poor ones than good ones but it has a lot to do with the venue and what they're willing to pay for a soundman.
Good venues usually have good sound guys.

 

[Greg_L]

I use anywhere from a 15 watt Tiny Terror to a 18-38 watt Mesa Blue Angel to my Mesa Mark V usually set at 45 watts and they're all thru single 12's.
I use whatever's appropriate for the gig.

IF a soundman asks me to turn down I try to find out his reason.
Often it goes like this:
Me: "Am I TOO loud?"
Him : "No, you're not too loud."
Me: "Am I loud enough?"
Him: "Yes you're loud enough but I don't have you in the PA much."
Me: "But I am loud enough? .......... and not TOO loud?"
Him: "Yes."
Me: "Then we're good."

I don't WANT to be TOO loud ..... that sucks and is amateurish.

However, I also don't want to change what I'm doing solely so he can run it into the PA if I'm loud enough.

When it's needed I'm certainly willing to let the soundman control my sound but as long as I'm not too loud I don't like the soundman having total control over me because they don't just control your volume. They control your tonality and how you sound.

I have very specific ideas of how I want my git to sound EQwise and how can I guarantee that's what's going out front if I turn down way low and have him controlling it?

He may have it sounding awesome to his ears but I might would think it sucks.
Since I hear guitars sounding like total crap all the freakin' time ....... I don't think it's unreasonable to be wary of someone else controlling my sound.
There are lots of ways guitars can sound and a lot of different tastes concerning that.

Once again, I'm not saying blast away at stupid volumes regardless of anything.
But as long as I'm loud enough I don't care a lot whether the soundman has much of it in the PA and I don't like ANYone to be able to change my tone which a soundman can definitely do.

As for the good versus bad soundman question.
I see FAR more poor ones than good ones but it has a lot to do with the venue and what they're willing to pay for a soundman.
Good venues usually have good sound guys.

100% truth. All of it.

 

[Greg_L]

This is way too heroic a generalisation for me, even though I know you are exaggerating. I've lost count of the number of bands I've tried to mix who are so deafened by their egos that they cannot hear how crap they are, and think that loudness is a good way of disguising their lack of talent. At one particular venue I was mixing a number of acts. One act came on, turned up, and played deafening rubbish. It emptied the place in a couple of minutes. I pulled the faders down, leaving just the vocal in there. It was beyond redemption.

A musician shouldn't have to alter his sound to please the sound man, they should alter to make themselves sound good. Which is what the soundman tries to do, if it wasn't for pricks of musicians so full of themselves.

I can do heroic generalisations too.

Also all valid and true. But is the musician's ego any worse than the control freak soundman's? I think not.

 

[RFR]

On the subject of the original post.
I dont know the percentages of preamp/poweramp/speaker contributions to the sound, but I know this;

The power amp tubes cooking is very important to the tone. A lot of what people consider to be the holy grail guitar tones were done with pre-master volume amps.

The power amp is very important in the good tone equation.


A lot of people in their tone quest will fall short however.
They are chasing that "recorded" tone.

There are a hell of a lot more elements in play. The player. The room, the mics, the placement, etc.etc.etc.