a little DI box help...

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dubstyle5000

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I am just getting in to recording my stuff at home and I haven't had much success micing my amps so I was about to go buy a DI box. Then my friend told me that I'll get the same results by just plugging my instruments straight into my mixer. I didn't even realize I could do that. Does that seem like a good suggestion? Thanks in advance.
 
Bluntly but simply put: your friend is a moron (no offence, well, a little). Not because he doesn't know his error, but because he gave you bad advice. The kind of advice that makes you spend money on something that never works. He're is an ever important lesson on guitar recording:

DI-ed electrical guitar NEVER EVER EVER sounds even halfway decent.

Seriously, I've heard better recordings done with a 10 dollar multimedia microphone. Stick to micing, saving up your cash, and get a cheap preamp + Shure SM57. Not before then will you be able to get a decent signal.

Oh yeah, to simply answer your question, it is possible, but will degrade you're signal which is already bad because you're not micing (think turning a normal turd into an oddly colored turd).
 
Okay, cool. I don't think he's actually a moron. He was just saying not to bother with a DI box if you have a mixer with inputs. I don't think he meant that it would sound better than micing (just wanted to clear that up).

The trouble is I just can't get a good sound when I record bass. My equipment is pretty good, but when I close mic my bass amp it sounds terrible. I play heavy metal and I really want to be able to get a good, punchy bass. I tried going directly into my mixer and it sounds a little better than when I mic, but still not great. I must be doing something wrong in the whole micing process.
 
dubstyle5000 said:
The trouble is I just can't get a good sound when I record bass. My equipment is pretty good, but when I close mic my bass amp it sounds terrible. I play heavy metal and I really want to be able to get a good, punchy bass. I tried going directly into my mixer and it sounds a little better than when I mic, but still not great. I must be doing something wrong in the whole micing process.

DI'ing a bass guitar is very common and can yield good to excellent results. You certainly can run into the line-ins of your mixer, but the results will probably not be as good as with a good DI box (look into Radial DI boxes or the SansAmp Bass Driver). Now, often, combining the signal of a DI with a mic on the amp (you need a good amp and a mic that is suited for recording bass amps) will yield even better results.

Electric guitar is another beast altogether. DI can work for clean parts, but is a bad idea for any distortion tracks, imo.
 
dubstyle5000 said:
Okay, cool. I don't think he's actually a moron. He was just saying not to bother with a DI box if you have a mixer with inputs. I don't think he meant that it would sound better than micing (just wanted to clear that up).

The trouble is I just can't get a good sound when I record bass. My equipment is pretty good, but when I close mic my bass amp it sounds terrible. I play heavy metal and I really want to be able to get a good, punchy bass. I tried going directly into my mixer and it sounds a little better than when I mic, but still not great. I must be doing something wrong in the whole micing process.

Well, he might not be a moron, but he's definitely wrong. Mixer inputs are low impedence input. Your guitar and bass pickups are designed to work into a high impedence input. If you plug directly into the mixer, there isn't enough for your pickups to "push" against and you end up losing a lot of top end detail. That's why you need the DI box even a cheap passive one, it provides a high impedence input for your guitar and bass pickups to work against, and transforms that into a signal you can plug into your mixer preamps. Whether DI'ed + Amp Sim guitar sounds as good as mic'ed amp... well that's another issue altogether.
 
There are many good products out there, none of hich automatically make things sound great. You are a part of the process, so time and experience is key here. That being said:

The Avalon U5 DI is the best one i have ever tried, and i have tried a bunch....

There is also no genre specific requirement for the bass in particular. A good DI is a good DI, just like a well recorded bass playing any part will sound like a well recorded bass. Forget being specific to heavy stuff, just work on getting a sound you like!
 
You didn't mention bassguitar, I would have given you a completely different answer if you did. I DI bass all the time, it works well unless you are going for a very distorted sound. Than you'll probably have to go the same way as with guitars: mic the cab.
 
Halion said:
Bluntly but simply put: your friend is a moron (no offence, well, a little). Not because he doesn't know his error, but because he gave you bad advice. The kind of advice that makes you spend money on something that never works. He're is an ever important lesson on guitar recording:

DI-ed electrical guitar NEVER EVER EVER sounds even halfway decent.

Seriously, I've heard better recordings done with a 10 dollar multimedia microphone. Stick to micing, saving up your cash, and get a cheap preamp + Shure SM57. Not before then will you be able to get a decent signal.

Oh yeah, to simply answer your question, it is possible, but will degrade you're signal which is already bad because you're not micing (think turning a normal turd into an oddly colored turd).

Nile Rogers records direct alot.

I record direct with a GT Brick DI to get a fat super-clean tone that is quite pleasing to my ears in some applications.
 
Thanks a lot for your help guys. Sounds like my best bet might be to buy a DI box and see how it sounds. I can always return it.
 
I'd go the amp with mic + DI route to two separate tracks if you can get a decent sound from your bass amp for recording. You might try getting the amp up off the floor by a couple of feet or so, get it away from walls & corners to minimize muddy bass response from early reflections, and concentrate more on getting the low mids right for a thick low end sound, rather than the low bass frequencies. Try the mic in different positions to get the tone you're looking for. Center of the speaker cone will be bright, edge will be dark. Anywhere on the front of the cab will sound different, so it might just be a matter of experimenting until you find the right spot. You also might try backing the mic away from the cab to decrease proximity effect if that's a problem.

What bass/amp/mic are you using? Active or passive electronics/pickups on your bass? What kind of mixer?


sl
 
I guess this is the part where I get exposed for not knowing much about my equipment. I'm using an SM57 mic with a KMD 1 X 12 bass cab (GK head) on my Epiphone bass. I don't know a thing about my pickups but I do have a nice 12 channel Mackie. I record with a Fostex MR8 which kinda sucks because there aren't separate inputs for each of the tracks.
 
If you have an active bass, it will use a battery. Passive ones don't. Using a direct box might help to get a better impedance relationship to the mixer or recorder inputs if you're using a passive bass. If there's a problem with this, it'll show up as hiss in the high end.

An active instrument is already low impedance, so it shouldn't present a problem. Also, running a passive axe through a stomp box should give you a low impedance signal if you want to plug in directly to an instrument input. (batteries sound better than AC adapters - try to use short cables if possible)

Your recorder will record up to 4 tracks at the same time, so you might be able to experiment with a DI + mic signal - it's a popular approach.

Your amp looks like it might be good for recording, so you might want to experiment with placement before throwing cash at the problem. The 57 should be ok. It wouldn't be my first choice, but it's capable.


sl
 
snow lizard said:
If you have an active bass, it will use a battery. Passive ones don't. Using a direct box might help to get a better impedance relationship to the mixer or recorder inputs if you're using a passive bass. If there's a problem with this, it'll show up as hiss in the high end.

An active instrument is already low impedance, so it shouldn't present a problem. Also, running a passive axe through a stomp box should give you a low impedance signal if you want to plug in directly to an instrument input. (batteries sound better than AC adapters - try to use short cables if possible)

Actually that's not necessarily true, an active pickup just "buffers" and has more juice to power a lower impedance input, they are still most efficient going into a high impedance source, but the difference is less noticable. Same goes for a stompbox. A passive pickup on the other hand doesn't have a lot of output and a low impedance input will put too heavy a load on it for it to drive the input effectively. The result is loss of high-end.
Think of it as water pressure changes in a pipe. If you cap the end off (high impedence) trying to pump water into the other end immediately increases pressure, while sucking water out immediately decreases pressure. Now take the cap off the end and stick it in a bucket (low impedance) Now adding water doesn't really change the pressure that much, and sucking water out doesn't really change the pressure much either. The analogy is your pickups are your pump (a more powerful pump for actives, a low powered one for passives), alternately sucking and pumping current through your cable (pipe) and into an input (capped end for High-Z, bucket for Low-Z). It's a pretty crude analogy but it helps illustrate a point.
 
reshp1 said:
Actually that's not necessarily true, an active pickup just "buffers" and has more juice to power a lower impedance input

The info I posted was sort of paraphrased from this article:

http://www.whirlwindusa.com/tech03.html

which uses a "fire hose" analogy very similar to what you posted above. It's a good way of describing it to understand why low feeds high.

The line inputs on my SRC console have 10k input, while the mic pres are 2k. I'm not sure how the Mackie or Fostex stuff specs out this way - seems like 10k might be a bit low for a passive guitar (usually 7 to 12k output).

It should be pretty easy to hear if there's a problem. I'm guessing Dubstyle5000's bass is passive, so a DI would help.


sl
 
reshp1 said:
Actually that's not necessarily true, an active pickup just "buffers" and has more juice to power a lower impedance input, they are still most efficient going into a high impedance source, but the difference is less noticable. Same goes for a stompbox. A passive pickup on the other hand doesn't have a lot of output and a low impedance input will put too heavy a load on it for it to drive the input effectively. The result is loss of high-end.
Think of it as water pressure changes in a pipe. If you cap the end off (high impedence) trying to pump water into the other end immediately increases pressure, while sucking water out immediately decreases pressure. Now take the cap off the end and stick it in a bucket (low impedance) Now adding water doesn't really change the pressure that much, and sucking water out doesn't really change the pressure much either. The analogy is your pickups are your pump (a more powerful pump for actives, a low powered one for passives), alternately sucking and pumping current through your cable (pipe) and into an input (capped end for High-Z, bucket for Low-Z). It's a pretty crude analogy but it helps illustrate a point.

Good analogy, but you seem to be implying signal level determines whether or not a certain source can drive a certain impedance. The level of output has nothing to do with the changes in tone when you put a hi-Z pickup into a lo-Z input. The loss in tone comes from the pickup not being able to keep full frequency response when presented with the wrong impedance. You could make up for a simple level drop with gain. It's the tone loss that counts. 50,000 volts into the wrong impedance still means shitty tone.

The analogy is correct, as far as it goes. Active electronics are just much more stable in terms of response and output over a much wider range of impedance. This is what allows them to drive lower impedances, not higher output levels.

So the buffering is the important thing in an active instrument, not the output level. Active instruments still have passive pickups in them. The active parts of the system provide the proper impedance for the pickups, and isolates them from the effects of the input impedance of whatever you plug into. That is why active instruments are less impedance-sensitive. The impedance-sensitive part of the circuit is buffered from the effects of impedances farther along by the more stable active circuit. Maybe that's what you meant by "more juice", but it didn't seem clear.
 
easychair said:
Good analogy, but you seem to be implying signal level determines whether or not a certain source can drive a certain impedance. The level of output has nothing to do with the changes in tone when you put a hi-Z pickup into a lo-Z input. The loss in tone comes from the pickup not being able to keep full frequency response when presented with the wrong impedance. You could make up for a simple level drop with gain. It's the tone loss that counts. 50,000 volts into the wrong impedance still means shitty tone.

More current, not voltage. Passive pickups can't source the current to generate rapid voltage changes (high frequency signal) across a low impedence input. An active pickup, even though it's designed for max efficiency with Hi-Z inputs, can source more current and therefore their performance doesn't degrade as much when plugged in a low-Z input.
 
reshp1 said:
More current, not voltage. Passive pickups can't source the current to generate rapid voltage changes (high frequency signal) across a low impedence input. An active pickup, even though it's designed for max efficiency with Hi-Z inputs, can source more current and therefore their performance doesn't degrade as much when plugged in a low-Z input.

You are right in that a passive source depends on impedance to generate voltage, and it's output voltage is limited by current draw, among other things. But current draw affects level, not response. The current draw in a magnetic pickup is soooo tiny, 1/10,000 amp for 1 volt into 10,000 ohms. That's one tenth of a milliwatt. Even into a 1500 ohm mic pre, it only would draw .0006 amps for one volt. I can't see a pickup not being able to draw that much.

Eventually, yes, I agree the signal would be affected by current limits. But not until very low impedances. And only affected because the voltage would be so limited, the output would be heavily disorted from clipping. But cable and pickup losses would have long since made the signal unusable.

Response is affected in a passive magnetic pickup with incorrect impedance mostly because the pickup coil inductance and input impedance form a low-pass filter. If the input impedance is high, the rolloff frequency is above the audible range. If it is low, the rolloff is audible. So even if a passive pickup could source enough current to put 50,000 volts into a lo-Z input, it still wouldn't have any high end.
As another example, mics don't like really high Z, even though current draw is minimal, because the transformer starts to saturate, due to eddy currents, and inductance also comes into play. The transformer can't work into the high impedance, and starts to act on itself. The signal collapses as current draw falls closer to zero, but impedance keeps rising.

Active sources have constant voltage, impedance-independent. They will put out the same voltage into 1 ohm as they will into a million, just with more or less current. They get in trouble when the impedance is so low they run out of current to support the output voltage. The outputs clip, as the device can't generate enough current to support clean output voltage. They also suffer from cable losses due to mismatch, just like passives.

Actives don't mind very high impedances, unlike passive sources. Their current draw is determined by the impedance and voltage just like a passive, but since voltage and current have separate sources, no harm is done. Current draw can fall to almost zero with no effect on voltage.

A lower-Z active instrument can plug into very high Z, no problem. A lo-Z active is designed to plug into a lo-Z input, but can also easily plug into a hi-Z input. It is more expensive to build this way, as a side note, due to increased current demands at lo-Z.

A high-Z active is designed for hi-Z inputs, and will most likely choke if plugged into a low-Z input, due to lack of sufficient current, and will suffer cable losses due to the mismatch anyway.
 
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Oh man, I bet the original poster thought he was going to get an straightforward answer to his question. :D

I think we're trying to say the same thing here. I was trying to explain a L/R lowpass from a time domain, current output standpoint, with lots of hand waving to keep it from getting too technical. What I should of said is Vo=Vi (1/(1+jwL/R)) ;)
 
reshp1 said:
Oh man, I bet the original poster thought he was going to get an straightforward answer to his question. :D

I think we're trying to say the same thing here. I was trying to explain a L/R lowpass from a time domain, current output standpoint, with lots of hand waving to keep it from getting too technical. What I should of said is Vo=Vi (1/(1+jwL/R)) ;)

There was an original question?

:confused:
 
mandocaster said:
Nile Rogers records direct alot.

I record direct with a GT Brick DI to get a fat super-clean tone that is quite pleasing to my ears in some applications.

i record both bass and electric guitars direct a lot. it's a different sound than micing up an amp, and in a lot of cases, it works just fine. in fact, i've gotten several compliments about the tone of my bass and guitars over in the mixing clinic, and most of them have been DI'd. you CAN get a very good sound out of a DI'd guitar--be it bass or electric.

i've used a number of DIs and mic preamps with DIs. they all sound different, and all could be useful depending on the tone you're after. my favorites right now are a Countryman Type 85 and my M-audio Tampa. totally different sounds out of the two. i'm looking to pick up a Radial JDI at some point soon for another option.

never the less, like joel said, most of the "trick" lay in "you". tone is in the fingers, not in the gear.


cheers,
wade
 
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