424mkIII and mixer

  • Thread starter Thread starter dtb
  • Start date Start date
dtb

dtb

Well-known member
If you want to use a external mixer with the 424mkIII what features do you need on the mixer to send each mic or imput to it's own track on the recorder, or is this possible with say a Mackie? The main reason for the external mixer is to use the mic pres and it seems that the Mackies have good ones. It seems that going with a good mixer for pres would be cost effective because you are getting the mixer to use for other things and would be less expensive than buying a pre that would handle up to 4 or 6 mics.
thanks,
dtb
 
I go channel insert out of my behringer into line in on my 424. If you whanted to group several mics to one input on the 424,use the mixers busses.
 
You don't need an external mixer, the 424mkIII has preamps, and they're fine,...

That's a very high quality mixer, right there, on the 424mkIII. The inputs 1-6 all have preamps, but inputs 7 & 8 don't.

Mackie mixers don't have anything on the mixer section of the 424mkIII. Use the 424mkIII's built in preamps, and built in mixer. You're not buying yourself anything in sound quality, by running your signal through an external mixer, Mackie or otherwise.

-The only good reason, as I see it, to use an external mixer to the 424mkIII, is if you've maxed out on inputs, and need more, and the 424mkIII has 8 basic inputs, [6 w/preamps], plus more inputs if you count Aux In.

-People may want to use an external mic preamp, depending on who you ask, but you don't need one, the 424mkIII's mic/preamp section is fine, sounds good, and is very high quality. The section with the TRIM knob is the preamp section.
 
reel

thanks reel,
well I did make the plunge. mainly because I thiught it was a great deal. alesis 1622 for 235.00. It will help when we want to use 6 or 8 mics when the whole gang is there. I agree that the 424mkIII mixer and pres are fine. that's all I use when I am doing stuff by my lonesome(which I do a lot of), not to confused with playing with myself, ha, ha.
And if you did not get my e-mail(my puter is sucking bad and I have a whole new out fit coming, but that's another thing) I have a cd in the mail to you. It's kinda done in 4 sections. I have 2 sets of friends that I play with. The first few tracks are with a singer who writes stuff and his friend who plays keys. I do the guitars, bass, banjo, sax and other stuff. the 2nd is the bluegrass friends.
I do guitars. the 3rd and 4th is just me, myself, and Irene, opps, I mean I. using the 424 and all my instruments and synths. hope you like what I sent. sorry for the long reply.
dtb
 
dtb, -don't worry, I'm the king of long replies!

================================

Hi. I just hopped on the web, and saw your post.

I'll be waiting anxiously to hear your stuff. That's sounds like it'll be really cool, and thanx for remembering the tape swap, a dual theme of the Davemania project.

If you haven't followed my posts lately, the Davemania project is still going strong, and reaching new heights of 'freedom', if you know what I mean, haha.

I'm still accepting requests, believe it or not, for the 3rd free edition, which is currently in the fabrication process, as we speak. -All hand made, of course.

I hope you still enjoy the DAVEMANIA free 4-cd set, with repeat spin time, based on it's overall basic entertainment value, as 'roots' oriented home recording. It's my best work to date, no doubt, if I do say so myself.

Thanx, especially, for being in on the ground floor of the Davemania phenomenon, and being a part of it's conception. I have you to thank, a lot, for just giving me the idea,... the original seed that grew into the THE DAVEMANIA COLLECTION.

========

Re: the mixer: Sure, in most cases, the mixer and preamp section of the 424mkIII should be adequate, but, in the time of need for more complex input/signal routing, like with bands or bigger ensembles, there's nothing wrong with having a submixer setup. Me, you know I've got that covered, with [4] M30's, for starters.

Anyway, I don't know much about Alesis mixers, but a 16x2x2 mixer for $235 sounds like a good deal, to me. Is that new or used?

=============

Thanx again, very much. You can take partial credit for the success of THE DAVEMANIA COLLECTION phenomenon. I'll take all the blame. Haha.

-I'll wait enthusiastically for your CD. Keep on jamming, and keep the tape spinning.

T/Y later, Dave.

:)
 
Mackie vlz

I have the old Mackie 1202 VLZ, before the "pro" revisions and I'd have to say that it does have audibly better pres than my 424mkIII.

I used the 424's xlr pres exclusively for over a year and switched to using the mackie for a front end a few weeks ago, and the results are dramatic.

I am using all dynamic mics, 3 57s a 58 and an AKG D112.... I use the mackie pres with the channel inserts half normalled, that way the gain and eq are sent to tape. I set the 424 inputs all the way down, then control the level exclusively with the mackie.

Not only does the mackie sound clearer and more 3-d...it goes audibly lower with the d112 (at least captures more low end) and adds a lot of crispness and top end to the 57s that was not there when using the 424 onboard pres (this is all without eq when recording).

It's not that the 424 pres sound bad either, they are just a shade less distinct and more midrangey. I actually like the sound they give better on distorted guitars, because it seems to add body to the signal.

I also have a presonus blue tube, which falls somewhere in between the sound of the two... More gain, more percieved top and bottom end, but more cloudiness / blurriness than the mackie.
 
dtb, got your CD, and it's a great CD, thanx!

That's a really great effort, all around. The songwriting is well developed, and the musicianship is excellent. All songs reflect a high level of artistry, IMO. One song was a genuine 'Stars & Bars' southern lament, and there's another song that's a v.'65 Dylan-style song, to the tee.

The instrumentals are all excellent, and judging by my own CD collection, which you've heard, you know I really like and appreciate the 'homey', acoustic feel of this entire CD/album of yours. It's got virtually no background noise, and all mixes are pretty much optimum. Your studio sound is very clean, and assuming you've recorded this all on the Tascam 424mkIII, I'd say you should be very proud of yourself, about this CD, and the music therein.

Of course, dtb, with a sound like that, I'd assume you're playing in a dinner club or blues bar, of some sort, or if not, you should be!

Listening to something like the DTB CD, being all original, it makes me realize how amatuerish I must be, haha.

Best of all, being "Recorded and Played in Freedom" is probably the best quote I've ever seen associated with such a truly American sound, such as yours. Be proud. I'm proud of you. Great CD, great effort. Keep it cranking out, and above all, have fun!

I love that quote, 'cause THE DAVEMANIA COLLECTION has BEING FREE at the heart of it, no doubt. I'm with you, 100%, on that.

Again, thanx so much for the GREAT CD, and thanx again for being one of the catylists of the Davemania project, from day one, which I need not remind you, was a BIG SUCCESS.

dtb, wow, great stuff! Keep jamming & recording, and pls post something to me again, someday. I've been working on a short 5-song EP followup to the Davemania 4-cd set, and you're on the top of the list.

Thx, very much, etc. /DA
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
 
Ohmygod, dtb, one thing I forgot!

No doubt, your CD is excellent, all the way around.

The only other thing I thought I'd mention, is that I think you can afford to push the red line a little harder.

Your sound is 100% clear, well mixed and well recorded, but the overall [average] sound level is maybe a little low. Hit the red a little more,... slightly more, and bring up the average level of everything a little bit. Other than that, it's DYN-O-MITE!

-ref: your cd to my 4th [tribute] cd, and notice the clear difference in average sound level. No doubt, you & I have very different styles, but I think you could bring up the signal, just a bit, as evidenced by comparing our discs.

Your overall sound is excellent, etc, and I think you're at a conservative recording level, where you could be hitting the red a little harder, and it wouldn't hurt.

Otherwise, I give this cd two thumbs UP. It's in my cd changer, and will get repeat spin time, guaranteed.

:) /DA
 
cd

hey reel,
thanks for the kind words. and yes, I am working on the signal to try and get it hotter. the mixer helps a lot. I don't have any compression or reverb effects yet and my mixdown deck is cheapo. It's very easy to get to much distortion at this time but I'm working on it. I'm also tring to figure out this mp3 thing so maybe others here can listen but have not been able to do so yet. I think I'm a little stupid when it comew to the computer. I've been able to load songs to file but that's as far as i've gone and now i'm stumped. any help here.
Thanks again for the review.
dtb
 
dtb, you're right, distortion lurks around every corner.

... and I also don't use compressors, or any outboard effects, so I know what you mean.

No doubt, pushing the red should be done in moderation, 'til you can estimate your results properly, through trial & error.

Judging from what I heard as a very conservative level setting [on your cd's recordings], I'd say you could push the red a *little* harder, without any ill effects, but of course you have to get your best sound, and I'm surely not implying you should redline the devil out of it,... just redline it conservatively,... peak a little bit more in the red, but not too much.

This, of course, is a fine line to tread, and you'll have to experiment in the studio, for best overall sound. Playing style plays into this equation, too, and obviously, nothing I say is gospel. Use your own best judgement.

Overall, the mixed sound on your cd is "right in the pocket", and the only thing I thought was you may bring up the average sound level, by peaking in the red a *little* harder, but just short of distortion levels.

Anyway, again, great songs, great cd, and 2 thumbs up!

===========

re: mp3's: you know I'm not a big mp3 fanatic, but in general, you'd create the mp3 files from wave files with an mp3 encoder. Then, since the mp3 file is a smaller, more manageable size, you may send it by email to your friends, as an email attachment.

The other way to share mp3's, [and I'm no expert], is to upload the mp3 file to your own [generic] web page, posting it as a downloadable entity. Then, you'd send the web page link to other people, who'd log onto your web page, and download your file.

==========

Thanx again, & good luck.:)
 
Hey Reel Dave

I'm with you partner. Sending a cd to someone is IMO, cheaper, faster, better sounding, more fun, no waiting to load, and more personal.
Last nite we redlined some stuff and I'll be checking the results tonight. This is another thing I've learned to do as much as possible. Waiting until the next day to listen to recorded stuff. I know sometimes I can't wait, but when I do it's more of a surprise.
Did you find that after you really got into recording, your playing buds wanted to play more. I'm starting to see my own personal music time is less and less. In the last year or so my friends all want to play and record. I may have to start charging. Ha.Ha.
The singer who wrote most of the lyrics and his keyboard buddy come every Monday nite. The bluegrass boys come on Wed. I almost go somewhere every Sat. and play. The little woman takes up a couple of nites. Man, don't you hate it when that happens. Next thing you know, you be getting up early to steal a llittle track time for yourself. Ha.
Oh yeh, I forgot to mention: It sure is FFFFFUUUUNNNN. Life is grand.
Soon,
dtb
 
Ohmygosh, you're not kidding.

In general, [speaking for myself], mp3's are good for once in a while selected listening experiments, but download times are a downside, and for me, are almost unbearable.

I think the biggest pain is downloading stuff, almost endlessly, then, 9 times out of 10, it's something you wouldn't want to listen to anyway.

If, by chance, I'm compelled to download someone's mp3, which is seldom, I feel this little bit of extra reward if the song is actually good, which is even more seldom.;)

For me, an mp3,... [if I can grind through the download],... is just a transient file, that I'll likely listen to a couple [or few] times, then delete. It's something that, [for me], is limited to listening on the PC, and cannot easily be played back on my normal stereo, which is massive, [relative to the PC].

Anyway, as you know, I'm not much of an mp3 fan, but other people love them, so go figure.

IMO, a CD is a lot better, in every way. CDs sound better than mp3s, have cover art & notes, and are a tangible thing that you can hold in your hand. You can hold it, admire it, analyze it, show to your friends, and keep in the archives, for repeated use and listening.

People are mp3 crazy, that's for sure, and mp3s fill a niche of web based sharing of songs, but if you want something that's more hifi, more tangible, and the real-deal, it's still a CD you want your music on.

There's a matter of scale, too. No doubt, you might download one song, or maybe two, but would you download twenty-five songs? One hundred and five?? Of course not. It's just not realistic.

A home recorded, hand made CD is a unique, special thing, and is a work of art unto itself, that's way, way beyond the quality of an mp3.

BTW, re: your cd, I was just thinking to myself, earlier: "That sure is a perfect example of homegrown, grass-roots, AMERICAN music, through & through. The songs are well written and very heartfelt, and the instrumentation is excellent. The homey, airy, acoustic feel is very tangible, and is a great part of what I liked so much about this disc. Great work, no shit!"

/DA
 
re: "when you've got the nice recording rig, your friends all want to glaum on,

and record their own stuff, on & on".

==========

dtb, you're so right, and I know what you're saying, 'cause although I haven't worked with a group in many years, I know people, and practically everybody thinks they're a star.

Hey, I'm in L.A., where everyone has an 'act'.

The key is to play together, based on your own measure, of what your own goals are. As long as you're all getting together, to play together, then it's all fun & good. When one or another person goes off on his "star trip", then it's okay to indulge your friends, to a point, and much good material can be mined this way, but after a certain point,...

-some of these friends should go down to GC w/$329, score their own 424mkIII, and play on their own dime, not yours.

It's one thing to be a friend, and another to be used as a vehicle for someone who's on a star trip.

Do your own [music/recording] thing, alone and together with your friends, and above all, have fun. If you're having fun when you're playing, the good energy will translate to tape.

-No, there's never enough time. [Remember, I've got a wife and 4 kids]. You may catch your prime music time in the early mornings, but I just tend to stay up really late, instead.

I'll tell you what,... that I think my kids' lasting memories of me, will be that I had that guitar on all the time, and that I played every day,... whang, whang, whang!

-"Daddy always sang and played his guitar", is a fine way to be remembered, isn't it?

/DA
 
time

Hey Reel,
Well it does allow you not to drink alone. Ha. I really don't mind to much cause I love all the guys. Some of us have been playing together in some way for around 25 years. Man, I'm getting old. I seem to always find my own time for laying down a few tracks, and I know that you know how it feels when some little diddy works and developes into a song. Sometimes I can go days and days and not get shit, then, opps, did I hear that right, roll that tape back and listen, man that was good, quick, lay down a bass beat before you forget what's in your head, grab the strat and wail some mean solo, hit the drum pads, move the mic an inch closer to the amp, pan that left a little, get another beer. Man, I've worked myself into a frenzy. I'm going down in the basement and play some. I get excited just talking about it.
Soon,
dtb
 
opps

Oh yeh,
I forgot to mention. The bluegrass boys Will be over tonight and I am thinking. Screw the mixer, screw the individual mics, Chill the beer, set up my one 603s and let her ripe. Kinda like the old days.
I think I'll hang it from the ceiling tonight and do like the old country singer said, turn it up until it squeals, then back off a hair.
I read that here somewhere. Ha.
Later,
dtb
 
Retro's cool. Go mono. I have. My "RAMONES TRIBUTE" cd [cd4] is all mixed to mono.

You know, the multi mic setups you may have will record everything, very technically, onto the tracks. You can get separation of all the sounds, for maximum flexibility later. I think everyone knows that, and shoots for that kind of model.

On the other hand, a good band with a good live sound can be recorded direct to stereo, either with a matched set of mics, set at an x-y axis to each other, or a single mic, panned center, [like you were describing].

By doing recording with one or 2 main mics in a room, you may not have ultimate flexibility of parts on the master tape, but with proper mic placement, you can get a very healthy, live sounding track.

The sheer simplicity of single or stereo micing lends itself more easily to getting a natural sound to tape. Sometimes, when multi-micing, you can inadvertently introduce more imbalances to the sound.

Highly produced cuts and music sessions are great, and so is the occasional simple live-to-tape session. You can do both, and experiment. Mix it up, from time to time. Both production methods, complex and simple, have their own strengths and weaknesses, and their own unique sound.

==================

I just had another thought about your original question, after having heard your disc, and assessed your recording situation.

=================

Re: mixers and the 424mkIII: -You read dr grip's post, and I agree that the claim to fame of the Mackie VLZ mixers is the quiet preamps.

Personally, I think the 424mkIII's preamps are adequate for the 424mkIII recorder, cause it's a 4-track cassette with ~95db of headroom, and the extended headroom of the VLZ might be better utilized on a ~105db+ digital recorder, and is probably a moot point on the 424mkIII.

That is not to say that an external mixer can't be used. They can, and are a very good idea, in some cases, like yours, after having analyzed it.

I think your best mixer upgrade option is to get a Tascam M30, used, for about ~$125-$150, which is an 8x4x2x2 mixer, with 6 XLR mic inputs and 2 1/4" inputs.

The reason I've said this, is after contemplating your recording session logistics, I think you need to move up to 4-BUSS mode mixing and recording.

F/I, when you use the BUSS mode recording on the 424mkIII, you're mixing 8x2, to stereo only, so all your parts are forced into the stereo format, and onto only 2 tape tracks.

Naturally, being a group, you've migrated to 4-DIRECT recording, with your 4 INPUTS being recorded straight to the 4 tape tracks.

An M30, 8-INPUT/4-BUSS mixer, will then enable you to mix all your parts to 4 independent busses, or subgroups, and then from those subgroups, you'd route the signal into your 424mkIII's 4-DIRECT INPUTS, recording the M30's 4-BUSSES to the 424mkIII's 4 tape tracks, simultaneously.

-The big advantage here, is your much greatly enhanced mixing of 8 inputs to 4 busses, and then going 4-DIRECT to tape. For a group of players, like you & your buds, this setup would be a superior setup, by far, to either the normal 8x2 BUSS mode recording, or the 'raw' 4-DIRECT to tape recording of the 424mkIII.

-"The 424mkIII [4-DIRECT] + M30 [4-BUSS] mixer as a front end, is the best of both worlds, of mixing, bussing and direct". [Quote me].

AND, the real beauty of this,... the icing on the cake, is that you can keep your entire "live group" 8x4 submix on the M30 board, and simply disconnect the 424mkIII cleanly, to separate and do individual recording on your own, which requires much less mixing power than live group mixes.

You'd just leave the "group" mix static on the M30, and not have to readjust everything, every time, and use just the base 424mkIII alone, when you're working by yourself. Just plug, and play/ unplug and play.

See? Isn't that great? That's an elegant solution, if I do say so myself. Of course, I'm an M30 man, all the way, having [4] myself, but I'm sure other members have their own favorite mixers.

For this upgrade, a key concept you're looking for, is finding a mixer with at least 8 inputs, high quality preamps, a minimum of 4 busses or subgroups, that's high enough quality to be the front end to a high quality device like the 424mkIII. [i.e., Tascam M30].

-I'm glad I gave that more thought, and I hope you find what I say interesting or helpful. Besides my primary opinion that the 424mkIII doesn't need a front end mixer, quality-wise, there definitely are situations that need for growth necessitates it.

Being only stereo/2-buss, the 424mkIII lends itself best to solo artists, smaller groups and overdub/tracking, but a full group, who plays live in a room simultaneously, usually goes to 4-DIRECT mode recording very quickly.

The next step beyond that is having a 4-BUSS front end mixer, which will enhance the mixing capabilities, and overall sound you can get routed into the 4-direct-to-tape recording of the 424mkIII.

Possibilities abound, based only on your imagination, and your gear budget. Go surf Ebay for the best deals on M30's, etc.

:) :) :)
 
Last edited:
more of Dave's gear recommendations,...

All things I said above considered, I want to point up the relative superiority of the Tascam 246. I'm sure you've seen or heard of it.

This was the v'80s Portastudio, with a 6X4X2 mixer + 4-track cassette recorder. Basically, except for not having XLR inputs, the 246 does alone what the 424mkIII and M30 do together, being a 4-buss Portastudio. In fact, the 246 has better EQ than the 424mkIII, [comparable to the M30's EQ], and real VU meters too, which add up to why the 246 is a real gem of Portastudio engineering. I recommend the 246 as a great piece of vintage gear, especially if you can find one in mint condition.

I also recommend the Tascam 388 as a great piece of vintage gear, for obvious reasons, just go look at one. The 388 is unique, in a class of it's own, and is tremendous in high quality engineering, from concept to execution and delivery. Sound quality is hifi, with comparable headroom to the 4-track cassette, but much better high frequency response. The 388 isn't 'one of those' 1/4" reel Portastudios, it was 'the' 8-track, 1/4" reel Portastudio.

How I got off onto gear picks/tangent, is contemplating the relative merit of the 424mkIII & M30. BTW, I forgot to mention explicitly, that the M30 has better EQ than the 424mkIII. Ok, I said it.

-Hey, if you can afford it, get one of each: M30, 246, 388, 424mkIII, or more!

-Beyond having all that great gear, IMO, I think your single, most sensible and practical upgrade to the 424mkIII is the M30 mixer.

===========

Good luck, & happy recording.

;) :) /Dave
 
Last edited:
a bust

Yep,
last nite was a bust in a way. the 1 mic deal worked ok. it took a little time to get the signal right. more time for drinking. but then a friend of my wife came by with her 3 year old grandson. well, you know. he HAD to touch everthing. the mic picked up every sound. so we ended up not recording much at all. but a real good time was had by all. the 1 mic deal kinda stumped me because of the way it picked up the dog barking, the wind blowing(we had the door opened because it was 60 degrees here at 8:00) and any other noise around. what we did get on tape sounded pretty good except the googoos and giggles from the child and my wife and her friend "quietly" talking. shit happens.
I've got to check out the m30. this sounds like a good tool and makes alot of sense. man my HD28 sounded so good in the 603s mic. clear, crisp, loud, ringing strings. i'm goning to do some stuff myself this morning cause i'm home alone. now if i can just keep the dog from barking. HA.
soon,
dtb
oh yeh, did i mention the beer was good? mmmm good.
 
Sometimes the beer's better than the session.

That's normal, in the ebb & flow of life. You may be going to higher and higher levels of production and perfection, then there's a little dip, here or there. It's normal. Take it in stride. The tighter you control the ambient atmosphere, the more noise-free your recordings can become.

Experimentation in recording is what best tells you what works and what doesn't, in practical terms,... above and beyond the text book theories, and all the best advice your friends can give you.

==========

-re: ambient noise: If you need to unplug the fridge, that's ok, but just remember to plug it back in again, after the session!

-> I have recordings where I forgot to turn of the wall-unit air conditioner, and it can be heard on tape, which is not good, but it did not ruin the tape, outright, either.

-> I have a recording where my kid can be heard, at least momentarily. Not only can he be heard on the recording, ["Time"], but if you saw the accompanying video, you'd see he tossed a ball, that whizzed just past my face, all during the recording! -It didn't faze me, though! I didn't miss a beat!

-> I have old, archive recordings I made when I lived in the heart of Downtown L.A., where, believe it or not, there was a BUS STOP right outside my window! WOW, you just have not heard ambient NOISE, 'til you've heard a BUS grind to a stop, then pull away, during your music session,... ALL CAPTURED ON TAPE! Yikes!

-dtb, I've been there, man, I feel your pain!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top