2 Mic's, 1 Amp....

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whiskeyfoot

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(A question follows.........)
I recently tried something i read in my trusty 'Recording Engineers Handbook' and was pleased with the result i got from the setup.
Basically, I had an SM57, and an SM58 both on the same speaker on my guitarists amp. The SM57 i had pointed straight at the speaker (i think about midway between the edge and the center cone)
then right next to the 57, i angled the 58 about 45 Degrees, but pointed at the same area the 57 was.
I then flipped the phase on the 58. I'm sure you who have been around
a while know what setup i'm talking about. (used 57 and 58 because thats all i had..)
The question i have is, what is the best way to pan something recorded this way? When i pan them both 50% each L/R, and then mute one of the channels, i hear some wierd stuff going on there, it just sounds totally different. I suppose that was the only thing they didn't describe in the setup, was how to pan something like this. Honestly, i am getting great sound, but i just don't exactly know what i'm doing in the mix, and any explaination would be awesome! Kindof a subject that should be in the mixing forum, but seemed like it fit in the Mic's forum too. Thanks ahead of time!!!!!!!! -J
 
whiskeyfoot said:
(A question follows.........)
I recently tried something i read in my trusty 'Recording Engineers Handbook' and was pleased with the result i got from the setup.
Basically, I had an SM57, and an SM58 both on the same speaker on my guitarists amp. The SM57 i had pointed straight at the speaker (i think about midway between the edge and the center cone)
then right next to the 57, i angled the 58 about 45 Degrees, but pointed at the same area the 57 was.
I then flipped the phase on the 58. I'm sure you who have been around
a while know what setup i'm talking about. (used 57 and 58 because thats all i had..)
The question i have is, what is the best way to pan something recorded this way? When i pan them both 50% each L/R, and then mute one of the channels, i hear some wierd stuff going on there, it just sounds totally different. I suppose that was the only thing they didn't describe in the setup, was how to pan something like this. Honestly, i am getting great sound, but i just don't exactly know what i'm doing in the mix, and any explaination would be awesome! Kindof a subject that should be in the mixing forum, but seemed like it fit in the Mic's forum too. Thanks ahead of time!!!!!!!! -J
Click to expand...

Both SM58 and SM57 positioned to mic one speaker? How big of an amp are we talking about here, that sounds odd. I can't answer your pan question, but if so you pan 50/50

what panning strategy would you use in multi-track. double tracking. 50/50 as well on the left?
 
well, first of all, i read the setup directions in my book again, and they're using an SM57, pointed straight at the speaker, about 3/4 of the way away from the center of the cone (so basically closer to the edge of the speaker than centered on the cone)
Then they added an MD421, pointed at the same spot as the 57, (same speaker, so mic's are side by side) but angled at 45degrees, and then they said to flip the phase on one of the mic's (whichever sounded best)
They failed, however, to mention how to pan this setup in the mix.

So i set this up basically the same way, except i used an SM58, because i didn't have a 421. I tried panning them both to the same side, about 50% to the right, and it didn't really sound all that great. When i pan them each about 50%, but one to the left, and one to the right, i really get an awesome stereo sound in the mix, so far thats the best i've gotton just messing around with the mix, so i just left it that way. I also listened to each track one at a time, and its cool how the SM57 has more of a gritty sound, and then the 58 has a bit smoother sound and more 'body'.
I was just wondering if anyone had done anything similar and had any other things to add, as far as the mix, and if anyone can explain what results they got. Thanx!
 
whiskeyfoot said:
well, first of all, i read the setup directions in my book again, and they're using an SM57, pointed straight at the speaker, about 3/4 of the way away from the center of the cone (so basically closer to the edge of the speaker than centered on the cone)
Then they added an MD421, pointed at the same spot as the 57, (same speaker, so mic's are side by side) but angled at 45degrees, and then they said to flip the phase on one of the mic's (whichever sounded best)
They failed, however, to mention how to pan this setup in the mix.

So i set this up basically the same way, except i used an SM58, because i didn't have a 421. I tried panning them both to the same side, about 50% to the right, and it didn't really sound all that great. When i pan them each about 50%, but one to the left, and one to the right, i really get an awesome stereo sound in the mix, so far thats the best i've gotton just messing around with the mix, so i just left it that way. I also listened to each track one at a time, and its cool how the SM57 has more of a gritty sound, and then the 58 has a bit smoother sound and more 'body'.
I was just wondering if anyone had done anything similar and had any other things to add, as far as the mix, and if anyone can explain what results they got. Thanx!
Click to expand...


so pan them 50/50.
if it sounds killer, keep it that way.

HOWEVER... are you done tracking?
i would suggest not mixing until you are done tracking.

i have spent a significant chunk of time trying to mic a closed 4x12 on different gain settings using only 2 sm57's (and various condensers, but i ended up just using the 57s), and i'll tell you the best stereo sound i ever got from it was... well... actually from 2 amps... haha... but they were panned hard left and hard right. as for the one amp, -finish all your tracking, then mix.

it is in the nature of the acoustics to sound strange if you mute one channel, but killer with both mics on -thats the point of phasing.

on one final note: there is a tool called the IBP, the "in between phase" tool; i don't know if or how many times its been mentioned on these forums... but it allows you to plug two mics in and get the best sound from each of them. i've not used it, but i hear good things about it. this may be a topic for a new thread... but has anyone had experience with the IBP?
 
whiskeyfoot said:
(A question follows.........)
then right next to the 57, i angled the 58 about 45 Degrees, but pointed at the same area the 57 was.
I then flipped the phase on the 58
Click to expand...

The "weirdness" you are getting is a combination of cancellation and comb filtering. You are also doing weird stuff as far as pickup pattern goes. If your handbook advised 'flipping the phase' (actually, it is flipping the polarity), it may have been trying to outline a Mid-Side technique. For the sake of not writing too much, I'll assume you aren't trying to do a mid-side setup.

Any time you have two microphones (or two speakers for that matter), picking up (or playing) the same sound, you will get constructive and destructive interference.

The effects of the cancellations/additions is lessened when you pan the two sources hard left and right, because you aren't summing them. However, if you try to play your mix back in mono it will not translate well.

What you can do:

-put the mics on different speakers
-use a near coincident pair by putting two mics as close together as possible and NOT flipping the polarity of one of them.
-look up how to do a MS (mid side) technique for hours of fun
 
i would like to reply more, but i'm on the run heading home right now...
a quick question:
i've heard the term 'summing' a few times in my book and on this forum...what exactly does that mean in the recording world?
i'll write more later, but for now, thanks for some info!
 
strange, maybe i try.

i suspect it's not meant to be a stereo technique, just one where different mixes of the 2 mics will yield different tonal results.

maybe.
 
I got really nice sound once putting a ND468 in front of a 12 inch, straight on pointed at the rim, close. Then put a SM57 in the back (open back cab) the same distance from the speaker, like partially inside the cab. Then flip the phase on the rear mic. I had to eq out som eof the low end rumble, like rolloff below 100 hz, but the finished sound was quite nice in the mix. Better than any sound you can get with just one mic.
 
The part that sounds odd to me is flipping the phase considering that the mics are nearly exactly the same distance from the speaker. People do use this technique fairly often, even with two 57s sometimes.

There is a technique using the phase flip to set up the mics that can be useful. Basically you get some noise going through the amp perhaps by just leaving the guitar unplugged with the cord leaning against the input jack. Then you flip the phase on one mic and move that mic around until the noise is minimized when listening to the two mics at the same time. Essentially you've created sort of a maximum phase cancellation. Then you flip the phase back to normal and everything should sound good.

You can't do a Mid-Side technique with two cardioid mics like 57s and 58s. You need one of them to be Figure 8.
 
whiskeyfoot said:
...The question i have is, what is the best way to pan something recorded this way? When i pan them both 50% each L/R, and then mute one of the channels, i hear some wierd stuff going on there, it just sounds totally different. I suppose that was the only thing they didn't describe in the setup, was how to pan something like this. Honestly, i am getting great sound, but i just don't exactly know what i'm doing in the mix, and any explaination would be awesome! Kindof a subject that should be in the mixing forum, but seemed like it fit in the Mic's forum too. Thanks ahead of time!!!!!!!! -J
Click to expand...
Your description doesn't tell if both mics are at the same distance, but if they're close to the same and you're starting out close to 'coherent, then flipping polarity -they would have to be panned hard to keep from canceling big time. This would be a 'stereo' effect that wouldn't survive mono. Try it panned in.

___________
Monitoring just fine at CathouseSound :cool: SP Tech Continuum AD
 
it's somewhat common, at least with metal/rock, to put one mic straight on-axis with the speaker, and another at a 45 degree angle

when doing so, you'll want to record two separate takes, with the mics from 1 take panned L and the other R
 
That polarity-flipping thing sounds odd to me too. I'm not sure what purpose that would serve if you're micing the front of the amp with the second mic vs. the rear. Can't be a M/S with two cardiods. Also, the 57 and 58 are exactly the same mic with different heads...same capsule...so all you're really doing is adding phase problems for no real benefit (as I see it).

I'm a big believer in simplicity, so I don't often use more than a single mic on a guitar amp, but if you must, do you have a different mic you could use? Maybe an LDC positioned 3x the distance as the other mic is from the amp? or 9x?

Weez
 
what i will try to do this evening is upload a few samples of the recording
and see what you guys think as far as phase anomalies and the panning. i will also scan the section of the book i found this in so u can see what i'm talking about. Did anyone have a definition of 'summing'? I'm assuming that means to balance the two channels? i'm probably way off. The only sum that i've ever heard of was in math class...:p
check back maybe this evening and i'll have something uploaded!
thanks again!:)
 
whiskeyfoot said:
what i will try to do this evening is upload a few samples of the recording
and see what you guys think as far as phase anomalies and the panning. i will also scan the section of the book i found this in so u can see what i'm talking about. Did anyone have a definition of 'summing'? I'm assuming that means to balance the two channels? i'm probably way off. The only sum that i've ever heard of was in math class...:p
check back maybe this evening and i'll have something uploaded!
thanks again!:)
Click to expand...

Same thing as math class really. It can get very technical, but in the context I'm using it, summing refers to any time you take two separate sources of audio and combine them electrically. For instance, I have two microphones on a guitar amp, and I mix them both down to one channel.
 
soundchaser59 said:
I got really nice sound once putting a ND468 in front of a 12 inch, straight on pointed at the rim, close. Then put a SM57 in the back (open back cab) the same distance from the speaker, like partially inside the cab. Then flip the phase on the rear mic. I had to eq out som eof the low end rumble, like rolloff below 100 hz, but the finished sound was quite nice in the mix. Better than any sound you can get with just one mic.
Click to expand...

The reason this worked was because by placing the microphones on opposite sides of the speaker, at the same distance, you were essentially placing them exactly 180 degrees out of phase. Every time the speaker causes a compression in one mic, it is causing a rarefaction at the exact same time at the other mic. By flipping the polarity of one microphone, you are effectively going from perfect cancellation to perfect addition.

The same technique should be employed when recording with a microphone on both the top and the bottom of a snare.
 
Summing means bringing all of your many individual channels of audio (guitars, bass, drums, vocals, keys, etc) together to a single channel (for mono) or a stereo pair of channels (for stereo).
 
so basically, to 'sum' a pair of microphones onto a single channel, it would have to be mixed down post live tracking? the reason i asked, is i have looked thru my manual forwards and backwards, and i don't really see anything on how to record 2 sources to a single channel. so i'm assuming (at least in my case) that i would have to follow up by bouncing the 2 tracks to a single track?
i am going to try the method you've mentioned as far as one mic in front and one in the rear and see how that sounds too.
if you'd like to hear what i have so far here's a link

www.myspace.com/americandestitution

try 'State Of Florida' thats one we just recorded when i started this thread.
any input would be greatly appreciated!
 
and by the way this is the list of equipment i used and the setups..so any advice is appreciated. please keep in mind some of these mic's are relatively cheap....:p

Vocal Scratch - SM58 (panned a bit to the right i believe...)
Guitar - (explained in this thread, sm 57 straight at cone, sm58 at a 45 degree angle, panned about 50% left and right)
bass DI centered
Kick- Shure RS230 (cheaper sm58 style mic) centered
snare- sm57 right above rim about 3" away - centered
OH right - akg perception 200 (by the floor tom glyn johns method 90%L)
OH left - samson CO2 pencil condenser (over snare) glyn johns method 90%R

no processing (comp, eq..etc) except maybe some reverb on the vocal at one point.....
thanks for listening!
 
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