2" 16 track advice on brands

Flangerhans

Flangerhans

Dodecahedronic member
Searching for information on these is a nightmare here, so I'm going to ask directly. My ambition since teenhood has been to use and own a wide format multitrack tape recorder, and the money is slowly coming together for one. I know I'll be wanting a 2" machine, with 16 track heads, XLR inputs, pro levels, VU meters with needles, and good flat response from 20-20K. Probably be running it at 15 ips, on EMG 911, no NR. Got a very open mind here, planning on 10-15K for a good used machine, but this will be my permanent lovechild, so higher quality is worth a little extra saving up. What would your recommendation be?
 
Brand new 2", 24 track 827 studers are going for a bit more than your higher end budget and you could always fit 16 track heads on that beast. I'd personally not buy used when I had that amount of money to spend. If you're willing to shell out 15K, why not spring for the extra 5 or 10K and get a factory fresh, with warranty, unit ?
 
There's another option, if you don't mind the much lower track count, a special order Otari MX5050IV-4 (4 track) on 1/2" tape. It goes for 9K. As much as I love this format, it'd be blasphemy to not get the 24 track 827 Studer for just a litte over twice that amount.
 
I really like old gear, for one thing. The smell of old circuit boards warming up does my heart good for some reason, and I'm not afraid to get a soldering iron and schematic out if I have to. A warranty is nice, but the older machines I've owned so far are so well built and fun to use that I kind of have a predjudice towards them. Same reason I don't drive cars built after 1973, they just built them with years of use in mind.
I know I'm doing the hobby no good by this, if enough people went to buy new machines, they'd start making them again. I don't tend to be altruistic nearly as much as I should about this, though. Plus, an additional 10K is a not inconsiderable sum, it's been about five years to get what I've got together as it is.

EDIT: I just caught your post as I was posting this about the Otari 4 track. I like this format very much as well, although the track count is tough for me to work with. That would be a great machine to have, though. Do they make a 1" 8 track like that one?
 
You have to balance several competing factors, including initial cost, upfront repair costs, subjective preference on sound quality, objective sound quality factors, availability of parts and maintenance needs. I assume you will do your own maintenance. Otherwise, the decision is probably made for you, based upon the service tech you will use.

Old machines could be had for as little as $1000-$1500 in many cases, which is why many people are attracted to them, versus the $20K plus for a new Studer. Of course, I also don't want to fool with that many tracks, either. One of the nice things about 4 track is that if you suck, you can't hide that fact on a 4 track the way you can with 24 tracks. If I had money to burn, I'd pick up a 2" M-79 for $1500 and put on a 2" 8 track headstack from either JRF or ATR for about another $8000 or so.

I've been pretty much doing only 3M stuff for a decade, know it well and have some spare parts in both the M-23 and M-79 series, so I'm going to stick with that. Few would try to argue that any machine was subjectively better sounding than the 3Ms from their first models in about 1959, though the Ampex ATR series and Studers of the 1970s caught up in terms of flutter spec and audio band scrape flutter and surpassed them in control features and gentleness of tape handling.

3Ms however, are pretty rare and 1" transport parts are almost impossible to find and no one will make them for you (trust me, I've pestered George Athan and the others to no avail). If you just want a 1/2" 4-track, you should be able to find an M-79-4 like mine for around $400-$500. BTW, there are a lot more 3Ms in California and relatively few in other places.

The Stephens machines also have a reputation for great sound, but the machines and parts are virtually non-existant and it would be brave to the point of foolhardiness to go down that road.

If I had to start again from scratch, I'd probably go with MCI machines, since they are much more abundant and relatively cheap. Randy Blevins in Nashville has a lot of machines and parts.

Both the MM-1200 and ATR series from Ampex should be considered. They are still available in reasonable abundance. Don't get an MM-1100... they have issues with hygroscopic materials in the circuit boards that would have to be replaced, unless it's been done already. You could check and see if Bob Starr (RTZ Audio) still makes new audio cards for the MM-1200. He did a few years back.

Then of course, there is Studer. The older machines would be worth considering. Honestly, I'm kind of amazed that a new Studer 2" machine is only about $20K (or is it $25K?). If you are in that ball park financially, I'd consider going for a new (or late model) 827. However, I don't think you can get the new machine with 16-track heads, so you'd need to lay out more for a used 16 track headstack or get ATR services or JRF to make you one. Any new 2" headstack is going to run you at least $8000.

I think Otari is out of the 1" 8 track biz, but the 7308, 7800 and MX-70 are all decent enough machines. They don't have transformer I/O, as I recall, so they don't quite have the sound of the 3M, Ampex and older MCI.

Hope that helps,

Cheers,

Otto
 
Flangerhans said:
I really like old gear, for one thing. The smell of old circuit boards warming up does my heart good for some reason, and I'm not afraid to get a soldering iron and schematic out if I have to.
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I sure wish I had your skills and liking to this sort of work. My idea of getting technical with my gear is doing basic alignment and spraying a few short bursts of contact cleaner. :o Other than that, I don't dig deeper. :eek:

The one thing which really scares me, if I saved up 10 or 15K, is getting a machine with capacitors nearly at the end of their life, not to mention solder joint problems and other unknowns. I don't know if I'd be able to take a gamble like that, especially for that amount of money.

EDIT: I just caught your post as I was posting this about the Otari 4 track. I like this format very much as well, although the track count is tough for me to work with. That would be a great machine to have, though. Do they make a 1" 8 track like that one?
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Yeah, 4 tracks on 1/2" tape is really cool, tape is cheap and it arguably can sound bigger than a 2" 24 track. When I inquired to Otari, which are extremely nice and professional people btw, they said the only multitrack they have is the MX5050IV-4. That actually surprised the hell out of me 'cause one would think Otari closed up their analog production, for multitracks that is. (I inquired about this late last year). Anyway, my understanding was that they'd have to build one for me from scratch, upon receipt of payment, which I thought would be too cool. Now why doesn't TASCAM go that same route I thought? Have an option on their site of special ordering any of their primo analog units, upon receipt of payment. I'll tell you right now, that through all the horror I've been through with used and even unused, NOS, MINT gear in the past, I'd spring for a new unit right now, just one, with a matching mixer.
 
Flangerhans, I think ofajen makes some great points and one of them being that you don't need to spend nearly that much money for a decent used 2" machine. I think when you get to that 15K number, you shouldn't be looking at a used machine. Just my 2 cents.... ;)
 
ofajen said:
Of course, I also don't want to fool with that many tracks, either. One of the nice things about 4 track is that if you suck, you can't hide that fact on a 4 track the way you can with 24 tracks.
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Good point. Plus there's something really cool and comforting working with such a "managable" format. Four tracks are cool. :cool:
 
Well, first let me thank you both, for your knowledgable and speedy replies. It's really great to know that there are people willing to share hard-won information about these machines so readily.
Otto, I never heard too much about the 3M machines, but from what I've read on your other thread about the restoration you're doing, you be the man to talk with about these. From what you've stated about the rarity, though, I might have quite a time getting a parts bin together, although there is the option of finding a kaput one and cannabalizing it. I'm going to do some research about the availability of them just to see if they would be a practical daily use recorder.
I have heard that the MCI machines are deficient in bass response, at least Jack Endino has some charts that seem to show a marked roll-off at under 40 cycles. He seems a trifle prejudiced, though, so this bears a further look as well. Blevin's is one of my regular stops when window shopping on the web.
I work on a narrow format 4 track right now, and I have to say that you're dead on right, leaves you no room to hide at all. It's also pretty limiting when trying to get stuff balanced properly, and it takes careful planning to bounce without getting a wall of mud instead of clear performance from these things. I understand that with wider format, I would have much less generation loss, but I still think that a 16 track machine would make things a lot easier, allowing me to concentrate on sound rather than planning track order.
CJ, trust me, I don't live for the moment I can solder. It's a royal pain, but I had to gain skills to do some of the stuff I do. I learned to fix automobiles solely because I had seen so many friends and relatives get reamed when geting their vehicles fixed, and with tape machines, it's actually hard to find people who will work on them close enough to avoid shipping. I doubt I'll be designing circuits anytime soon, but replacing old parts with new ones is pretty worthwhile to know how to do. You can't really go wrong if you are methodical and careful with the good irons made today.
Finally, if I can get by spending less than my budget on a fine used machine, I certainly won't complain. Tape is expensive, and my next step after this will probably be a really first rate mixer, so I can use a headstart on that. In fact, expect another one of these types of inquiries in about five more years on finding a good console... :rolleyes:
 
I really do believe, from what I've seen offered on the used market, that you could get a really nice 2" machine and a first rate console for waaay less than your budget. That's the good news. :)
 
Even with 10-15k to spend, you might be best off to purchase a used machine. If you want "pro" sound, you're going to need to purchase a "pro" console, not to mention all of the other assorted equipment that you'll need to get your studio running. A good portion of the money should be spent on treating the room, quality monitors, etc.

Spending 10-15k on a new machine might be ideal, but you don't want to have other parts of your studio weaken the potential of your 2" recorder.

-MD
 
I have found that MCI stuff can sound great, be inexpensive and is easy to work on and maintain. I have a JH16-16 tape machine and a JH416B console that I got for around $6k combined. They sound fantastic and are very reliable considering their age. I have rebuilt modules, recapped cards and modded things with not much effort at all. Simple, but solid.

Check with Randy Blevins in Nashville for this brand of gear.

http://www.blevinsaudio.com

mm
 
Flangerhans said:
I have heard that the MCI machines are deficient in bass response, at least Jack Endino has some charts that seem to show a marked roll-off at under 40 cycles. He seems a trifle prejudiced, though, so this bears a further look as well. Blevin's is one of my regular stops when window shopping on the web.
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I haven't worked with MCIs much, but know people who have. All these machines have LF playback controls and the Studers even have LF record controls on the electronics,. They can be adapted to NAB or IEC eq, and you can choose 15 ips for fuller low end and the choice of tape may matter, too. A blanket assertion that MCI is deficient in bass is something I would give little weight.

Cheers,

Otto
 
I've got an Otari MX5050III-4 and it frigging rocks. the heads are worn as hell but it still sounds good. I just picked up an OtariMX5050III-8 and the heads are almost perfect. We are going to attempt to record our LP next week and I am torn as to which one to use. The tracks we've done on the 4 sound amazing, but the ability to adjust the kick and the overhead in the mix would be very beneficial. Theres only so much you can do with eq. I think if I see an 8-track mx-70 available at any point I am going to snatch it up.
 
Does anybody still manufacture 2" 16 track headstacks?

Last I heard, one of Studer's factories burned down, and that happened to be the one and only shop that manufactured 2" 16 track headstacks. They haven't restarted the line, for obvious reasons.
 
FALKEN said:
I've got an Otari MX5050III-4 and it frigging rocks.
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Call me crazy (tho I think I just regained my sanity) but I'm savin' up for a brand new Otari MX5050IV-4 :)
 
I've heard Falkens recordings and I can vouch that it sounds excellent. The ideal thing for me would be a 1" 8 track.
 
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