1 Month into recording, here is what i have

[Nbudinich]

Hello all

I have updated my soundclick page with the songs I've been working on. I've only been recording for about a month now so I need some criticism. They sound great to me but I'm a smart guy and realize that I'm not as pro as you. I know I don't have many posts and that is because I know how to use search and am a noob with nothing to add to the threads.

I'm using a 2 channel M-Box, an AKG perception 200 LDC, and a SM57 into Reaper (yes, i paid for it) and cheap self powered monitors. A few songs have canned beats from the Addictive Drums demo as i cant figure out for the life of me how MIDI works so i can make my own. I'm recording in the living room of my 1 br condo with NO acoustic treatment (my couch might be a good bass trap). I have a horrible monitor placement with no room to make it better. If i posted a picture you all would light torches and chase me off the board for good.

That being said, I would really appreciate your time if you could listen to a few and give me some ideas/advice. I know thats a vague request but I have faith in your expertise.

www.soundclick.com/Nbudinich


The songs are written and performed by two of my friends. Garrett Himes and Tommy Hall.

Thank you again for your time.

 

[WhiteStrat]

You're off to a great start. Some thoughts (I haven't listened to all of them):

Sweet Imperfection & On Modern Machines: On acoustic guitar heavy songs like these I like to double track the guitars and pan 'em L & R--fills it out and surrounds the vocal well.

Shakin Babies--here you double tracked the guitar. The guitar is direct in, right? Sounds a bit brittle but the doubling goes a long way to making it sound decent.

All About You--now here the acoustic sounds doubled. Sounds good. I like the distant verb/delay on the vox.

Your two artists: Tommy Hall--I can hear the room when he sings, but not so much when Garrett Hines sings. That's not necessarily bad, just different. I'm guessing Garrett was up the mic closer & more agressively than Tommy.

Too Young--acoustic sounds a bit dark. Just a bit.

I'll try to listen to more later.

In general I'd say you're using this board intelligently. The tracks show that you've been listening & learning. Keep it up!

Oh yeah...a little late, but welcome to the clinic & keep posting!

BTW: You're working with some really fun material here. Some nice funky chord progressions, witty lyrics--that helps make good music!

Sorry for rambling back & forth...

 

[Greg_L]

I listened to most of each song. They don't sound too bad at all - especially for only recording for one month. I agree with Whitestrat's assessments. Just some little things to tweak. It really depends on the arrangements. If you want to keep the acoustic songs just an acoustic and vocals, you should aim for fuller sounds. The acoustic guitars sound kind of thin without much body and the vocals are sort of boxy in the high mids.

How are you micing the acoustic? I rarely record acoustic guitars, but I think most people mic it near the 12th fret and put a mic off-axis near the soundhole too. Thats what I do anyway, and it usually gives a full and rich acoustic sound.

 

[K-dub]

Go stereo miking on acoustics ... particular if the acoustic is the featured instrument. If it's one of many in a mix, mono miking is fine ... because you can direct the sound better.

But if you're going for large acoustic guitar sound, once you've done stereo, you never go back.



Put one mic on the neck, another at the back -- adjust until you get the right sound. There is no cake recipe for success, only trial and error.

Good luck!

Kev-

 

[Nbudinich]

You're off to a great start. Some thoughts (I haven't listened to all of them):

Sweet Imperfection & On Modern Machines: On acoustic guitar heavy songs like these I like to double track the guitars and pan 'em L & R--fills it out and surrounds the vocal well.

I doubled the same track and nudged one for a fake stereo effect. I plan to redo these with him playing the part twice. also there is a horrible punch at the end of modern machines that's keeping me up at night.

Shakin Babies--here you double tracked the guitar. The guitar is direct in, right? Sounds a bit brittle but the doubling goes a long way to making it sound decent.

I hear that. Is that something that can be fixed with EQ or is it a tracking problem. That was done with a hollow body Washburn through a Marshall 30w 1x10 into the 57 which i placed even with the cone off to the side pointed center. Maybe its becuase i cant crank the volume in my condo so I lose the full range of sound.

All About You--now here the acoustic sounds doubled. Sounds good. I like the distant verb/delay on the vox.

That has 1 rhythm track using the technique above and then another strumming on the downbeats.

Your two artists: Tommy Hall--I can hear the room when he sings, but not so much when Garrett Hines sings. That's not necessarily bad, just different. I'm guessing Garrett was up the mic closer & more agressively than Tommy.

Which is better? Should i tell Tommy to step-in and man-up or Garrett to calm down?

Too Young--acoustic sounds a bit dark. Just a bit.

I'll try to listen to more later.

In general I'd say you're using this board intelligently. The tracks show that you've been listening & learning. Keep it up!

Oh yeah...a little late, but welcome to the clinic & keep posting!

BTW: You're working with some really fun material here. Some nice funky chord progressions, witty lyrics--that helps make good music!

Sorry for rambling back & forth...

Thank you SO much for your time. This is really gonna help me. There is so much helpful info on this board. Keep up the good work.

 

[Nbudinich]

I listened to most of each song. They don't sound too bad at all - especially for only recording for one month. I agree with Whitestrat's assessments. Just some little things to tweak. It really depends on the arrangements. If you want to keep the acoustic songs just an acoustic and vocals, you should aim for fuller sounds. The acoustic guitars sound kind of thin without much body and the vocals are sort of boxy in the high mids.

How are you micing the acoustic? I rarely record acoustic guitars, but I think most people mic it near the 12th fret and put a mic off-axis near the soundhole too. Thats what I do anyway, and it usually gives a full and rich acoustic sound.

Greg_L you are the MAN!!! I've listened to all your stuff multiple times you are inspiring. I play drums, guitar and bass and have been in multiple bands on multiple instuments but i got tired of musicians and the whole scene. When i decided to get set up to record it was because i hadn't played anything for a few years and wanted to make music without trying to "make it". I have a lot of musician friends who feel the same. I told them I just want to record covers and originals while drinking beer on the weekends with no pressure.

The plan was to read and learn untill I bought a house and set up for real but i couldn't wait so i set up this little studio to practice and hold me over till I can have a better spot.

And after finding this board I found your stuff. Your style is great, your originals are awesome and you pick great songs to cover. And the fact that you play all the instruments and sing is exactly what i want to do. You rock!

Ok sorry about the ass-kissing rant.

As to micing the guitar. For the first couple sessions I just had the LDC which i put about a foot away pointing directly at the soudhole and only recorded one track. During the mixdown I would double it and throw them hard L and R then nudge one back a touch (thank the board for that trick). Then put another just off center depending on what side the two sounded like they were leaning to even out the sound.

I now know the error of my ways. I went out a picked up the SM57 and for the tracks: "Everything we think about: and "Giving Up On Singing" which we did on Tuesday I pointed the 57 at the 12th fret about 4-6 inches away and the AKG about a 14 inches off the sound hole, a little back towards the bridge pointed between the bridge and SH. I had him play the part twice and then put one of each hard L and R and the others about 58% L and R. Is that better? Do those sound correct? seems like it to me. Is that considered stereo micing? should i pan them differently?

Considering the first group of songs we did were done in 1 or 2 takes vox and guitar without a second track I'm going to have them redo them now that I got the hang of it. I would hate to keep the songs i learned on when we can do them better second time around.

 

[Greg_L]

Aww shucks, thanks man. Just keep reading and learning and trying. I've only been at it for about 2 and a half years now and anything that I do that sounds good is from learning in here from these great people. My first recordings sounded infinitely worse than yours do. Jeez, they were terrible. But I read and try to implement the things I've learned and they're getting better.

Your method with the acoustic panning sounds okay to me, but I'm no expert on acoustic micing. It's hard to tell from your description, but one thing I'd maybe do differently is to keep each take grouped together. The 12th fret mic and the SH mic are picking up the same signal, so keep them panned together. You may be using two mics, but a guitar is a mono instrument. If you pan the 12th fret mic at 60%, put the corresponding soundhole mic over there too, or very close by. This way you have both mics that picked up one source close together. They belong together. Then do the same with the second take, but to the other side. If you put one tracks 12th fret mic with another tracks soundhole mic, it could get weird. But play with it and see. Nothing is set in stone.

 

[Nbudinich]

Aww shucks, thanks man. Just keep reading and learning and trying. I've only been at it for about 2 and a half years now and anything that I do that sounds good is from learning in here from these great people. My first recordings sounded infinitely worse than yours do. Jeez, they were terrible. But I read and try to implement the things I've learned and they're getting better.

Your method with the acoustic panning sounds okay to me, but I'm no expert on acoustic micing. It's hard to tell from your description, but one thing I'd maybe do differently is to keep each take grouped together. The 12th fret mic and the SH mic are picking up the same signal, so keep them panned together. You may be using two mics, but a guitar is a mono instrument. If you pan the 12th fret mic at 60%, put the corresponding soundhole mic over there too, or very close by. This way you have both mics that picked up one source close together. They belong together. Then do the same with the second take, but to the other side. If you put one tracks 12th fret mic with another tracks soundhole mic, it could get weird. But play with it and see. Nothing is set in stone.

Yeah thats pretty much what I'm doing. I have, for example, the 12th fret of the first take 100% left and the SH track from the same take at 60% and the same on the right with the second take.

When you said before that the vox were boxy in the high midrange. Should i just boost that area on the EQ? Or is my dining room ruining the track?

 

[Greg_L]

Yeah thats pretty much what I'm doing. I have, for example, the 12th fret of the first take 100% left and the SH track from the same take at 60% and the same on the right with the second take.

When you said before that the vox were boxy in the high midrange. Should i just boost that area on the EQ? Or is my dining room ruining the track?

No, I think you should cut EQ. There's definitely some room in your vocal tracks, but that's not entirely the problem. usually when there's a frequency problem, you don't boost it. That just makes it worse.

 

[TelePaul]

Hey Greg L, I think you suck, so there!!!!

 

[Greg_L]

Hey Greg L, I think you suck, so there!!!!

I do suck!

 

[NL5]

Here is my two cents on Sweet Imperfection -

The guitar is heavy on the left side and the delay sounds quite strange hard panned to the right. Also, the vocal is sitting left - maybe that is on purpose, but to me it sounds odd. On such a stripped down song, I would stay away from the hard panning. I also think that a single stereo mic'd ac guitar would be better than double tracking, but that's just my opinion. Lastly, I would hammer the vocal with a comp. I mean REALLY hammer it.

Here is an example of what I am talking about. This was done live, so there are some phase issues. There were two mic's on the guitar and a vocal mic. The vocal and guitar would sound better if I was able to overdub, but we decided to just do this project live. Anyway, you should at least get an idea of what I am trying to say...

.

 

[WhiteStrat]

I hear that. Is that something that can be fixed with EQ or is it a tracking problem. That was done with a hollow body Washburn through a Marshall 30w 1x10 into the 57 which i placed even with the cone off to the side pointed center. Maybe its becuase i cant crank the volume in my condo so I lose the full range of sound.

I probably thought it was DI'd for one of these reasons: a) maybe the gain's too high. Guitar's my main insrument, and I'm still amazed at how much lower the gain needs to be to get a good recorded sound vs. jamming. (The converse is that recording with too much gains yields a thin, sizzly sound). b) I'm not familiar w/your amp, but maybe it's solid state? For me the differences between tube & SS distortion are even more noticeable recorded than playing in a room.

Which is better? Should i tell Tommy to step-in and man-up or Garrett to calm down?

Well you don't want to alter a singer's approach such that they're no longer comfortable, but if you've got that kind of "producer" influence (sounds like you do ) and it doesn't throw him off, I'd have Tommy step-in and man-up. They've both got good voices, but Garrett's is coming across better and letting less of the room in.

 

[Nbudinich]

Here is my two cents on Sweet Imperfection -

The guitar is heavy on the left side and the delay sounds quite strange hard panned to the right. Also, the vocal is sitting left - maybe that is on purpose, but to me it sounds odd. On such a stripped down song, I would stay away from the hard panning. I also think that a single stereo mic'd ac guitar would be better than double tracking, but that's just my opinion. Lastly, I would hammer the vocal with a comp. I mean REALLY hammer it.

Here is an example of what I am talking about. This was done live, so there are some phase issues. There were two mic's on the guitar and a vocal mic. The vocal and guitar would sound better if I was able to overdub, but we decided to just do this project live. Anyway, you should at least get an idea of what I am trying to say...

.

Yeah man thats sounds good. Could you elaborate on how you recorded the guitar? What kind of mics? How were they placed? what do you do to it for the mix? I like how it sounds "right there". Was it it a big guitar, like a dreadnaught or whatever they call it?

 

[Nbudinich]

I probably thought it was DI'd for one of these reasons: a) maybe the gain's too high. Guitar's my main insrument, and I'm still amazed at how much lower the gain needs to be to get a good recorded sound vs. jamming. (The converse is that recording with too much gains yields a thin, sizzly sound). b) I'm not familiar w/your amp, but maybe it's solid state? For me the differences between tube & SS distortion are even more noticeable recorded than playing in a room.



Well you don't want to alter a singer's approach such that they're no longer comfortable, but if you've got that kind of "producer" influence (sounds like you do ) and it doesn't throw him off, I'd have Tommy step-in and man-up. They've both got good voices, but Garrett's is coming across better and letting less of the room in.

Its just a little SS amp. What you say about to much gain makes sense, iI'll have to keep that in mind.

I have a ton of influence on these two. They're two of my best friends and I'm recording all there music for free. I'll make them wear a football helmet while they sing if i think it will sound better.

 

[WhiteStrat]

Its just a little SS amp. What you say about to much gain makes sense, iI'll have to keep that in mind.

I have a ton of influence on these two. They're two of my best friends and I'm recording all there music for free. I'll make them wear a football helmet while they sing if i think it will sound better.

Yes! Football helmets help. And with really big, hairy singers, dancing leotards help set the mood as well. Good luck with that...

 

[NL5]

Yeah man thats sounds good. Could you elaborate on how you recorded the guitar? What kind of mics? How were they placed? what do you do to it for the mix? I like how it sounds "right there". Was it it a big guitar, like a dreadnaught or whatever they call it?

I don't think it was a dreadnaught. Just a regular acoustic. I usually do stereo mic's by taking one at the twelth fret or a bit closer to the headstock and pointing it at a 45 degree angle towards the sound hole (I put it as close to the fretboard as the guitarist can handle). I take the other mic and put it about a foot back from the end of the guitar and about 6 inches out pointed at the bridge. Hopefully that makes sense. As far as the mixing, I don't do much at all really. There is a slight rolloff in the bridge mic because we got a bit of boom in that mic, and a tad bit of reverb. That's about it. Oh, and the mic's are cardoid SDC's.

Here is an awesome pic I made with paint -

 

[Nbudinich]

Here is how i did it in green. I'm gonna try your method for sure next time, I see how it would sound better. Do you think that your placement would work well with the mics I'm using? I'm still a little ignorant to how the different kind of mics work.

Why do get the feeling this will turn into one of those pictures that gets altered by everyone until it looks like we're mapping the human genome?

 

[NL5]

Here is how i did it in green. I'm gonna try your method for sure next time, I see how it would sound better. Do you think that your placement would work well with the mics I'm using? I'm still a little ignorant to how the different kind of mics work.

Why do get the feeling this will turn into one of those pictures that gets altered by everyone until it looks like we're mapping the human genome?

It sounds a lot different than how you have it shown. Hmmmm. I would have thought the mic at the soundhole would have been super deep and boomy. Also, it sounded like the track was mono hard panned left with a delay hard panned right. It was stereo? Maybe the tracks got slightly off time somehow?

 

[Nbudinich]

It sounds a lot different than how you have it shown. Hmmmm. I would have thought the mic at the soundhole would have been super deep and boomy. Also, it sounded like the track was mono hard panned left with a delay hard panned right. It was stereo? Maybe the tracks got slightly off time somehow?

Ok sorry, I've confused myself, let me fix this.

On "Sweet Imperfection" I had the AKG LDC set a foot or so from the soundhole pointed right in there. (below in red)

On "Giving up on singing" and "Everything we think about" which were recorded a couple of days ago i used the green placement.

Do those tracks sound good? Neither of them sound boomy. The latter two sound crisp and clearer but they dont sound big like yours.

Sorry about that.

I know i didnt need to diagram the red one, but its crackin me up.