Papanate
Well-known member
Yeah it’s not the good ol’ KETS pricing is it? And they are using the real name - Mmmm - AFAIK Real Telefunken’s aren’t made in China (yet!) - so this appears to be a clone - but how good a clone? And what did they use to copy for the engineering?
R
R D Smith
It's as good as it is, for as long as it lasts.
My guess is they either had an original to reverse engineer, or got their hands on the manufacturer's drawings and schematics. The third possibility is they just made one that looked like it. But, I think if they did that, it would be more in the price range of the KETS.
TalismanRich
Well-known member
It can't be too good of a clone. They reverse engineered a tube mic to be a transistor mic. That's a big change. The real 251E is a multipattern mic. This one doesn't have the switch, so probably just cardioid. Another minor point.
At least they spelled Telefunken correctly on the label.
At least they spelled Telefunken correctly on the label.
rob aylestone
Moderator
I sort of get some of the clones, but all the plus points that make a classic mic appear to be missing? Very odd?
Papanate
Well-known member
For some reason it seems all the clones - including the KETS TLM 103 are always Cardiod - it’s must be difficult to make a multi pattern mic or some thing.
That’s what I find surprising - it appears they didn’t get the color match though - although the first picture in the add is the correct color - in the rest it is a weird copper gold look.
CoolCat
Well-known member
it seems common for fakes.to be about IMAGE ....like a bad fake Rolex, it can look good from 4ft away....
the fakes fail in substance often, the metal is cheap, the internal design is nothing like the original, like the fake Rolex' watches having
cheap internals, and the cheap glass and coated wears off or peels.
the Rolex with the smooth second hand was hard to copy, instead the normal second hand movement was easier to copy.
I've read today there are very very good Rolex copies with the smooth second-hand movement copied.
Anyway, its funny in a IMAGE way, they are looking like a Telefunken. For all we know the same place makes the body and paint and headbasket.
When I got a Warm 47 tube, I noticed a lot of bodies looked exactly the same and it seems a lot of vendors use China boxes, parts.
Then the differences were internal parts Capsules and transformers....
making a tube mic with transistors is funny, pretty poor fake. IMAGE vs SUBSTANCE?
the fakes fail in substance often, the metal is cheap, the internal design is nothing like the original, like the fake Rolex' watches having
cheap internals, and the cheap glass and coated wears off or peels.
the Rolex with the smooth second hand was hard to copy, instead the normal second hand movement was easier to copy.
I've read today there are very very good Rolex copies with the smooth second-hand movement copied.
Anyway, its funny in a IMAGE way, they are looking like a Telefunken. For all we know the same place makes the body and paint and headbasket.
When I got a Warm 47 tube, I noticed a lot of bodies looked exactly the same and it seems a lot of vendors use China boxes, parts.
Then the differences were internal parts Capsules and transformers....
making a tube mic with transistors is funny, pretty poor fake. IMAGE vs SUBSTANCE?
TalismanRich
Well-known member
You mean like building a Shelby Cobra with a 2.5L Duratech V6 engine?
CoolCat
Well-known member
what was the video Rob did and the mic was opened up and nothing was inside but miniscule amount of electronics inside, like one chip? was it the..103 fakes 87fakes, I cant recall? It made me laugh awhile.
this Telefaken is $650 too! so that's pretty bold considering someone could get a really nice mic for that kind of cash.
I realized the other day, for used mics these days Return Policy is everything.
So many fakes and swapped out capsules, I don't think its wise to buy any used mic without a strong Return policy.
this Telefaken is $650 too! so that's pretty bold considering someone could get a really nice mic for that kind of cash.
I realized the other day, for used mics these days Return Policy is everything.
So many fakes and swapped out capsules, I don't think its wise to buy any used mic without a strong Return policy.
TalismanRich
Well-known member
They specified two colors: White and copper. Maybe they think the copper color is expensive looking.
CoolCat
Well-known member
thats getting better!
if I buy a tube mic, I expect a tube in it. lol
hopefully the tube is actually wired in the circuit.
I was reading the other day a lot of the clone body's and headbaskets are China made for many of the cloners. Good looking and well made. IMAGE is one thing.
MXL spent a lot of money on paint colors and shapes with the exact same internals, so the new releases were often IMAGE only. It got silly almost with so many 990 re-re-releases of the same thing, different body paint.
The unique then is the capsule and electronics parts. The schematics seem to be copied in many cases so its the same schematic, leaving the components as the "sound" differences, right? DIY'ers would maybe know.
Didn't someone write once the Chineese take pride in how good they can copy famous items. It's a pride thing to copy a high end piece.
Is that like doing a Beatle copy song and comparing to the original? or maybe making a new version of something old that is appealing to someone.
Or is it just blatant stealing and undermining someone elses legal and business to put honest money into the hands of corrupt thieves?
its a mind bender.
It's probably why Chineese is still thought of as a "cheap crap" cancerous brand-tattoo, like funding human traffickers or something.
Microphone traffickers with ill intentions? lol
Japan used to be cheap-stereotype but then Toyota, Honda, Lexus and Sony and highest end quality, QC, in their own name brands turned Made in Japan somehow into a stamp of highest quality. IMO. Fender Japan is some of the best strats and guitars Ive played, and acoustic guitars, and the AT 40xx series is the high end mics, while 20x and others mixed with China lower end AT mics. Rode took their company to in-house making it all in Australia, very interesting company and being in house a person knows what they are buying, quality, integrity etc.. I wish Shure would have kept something in the US, like AT did with Japan doing some in China and higher end in Japan.
Chineese fake or real Telefunken, its hard to tell these days?
Telefunken Recording Hacks-
if I buy a tube mic, I expect a tube in it. lol
hopefully the tube is actually wired in the circuit.
I was reading the other day a lot of the clone body's and headbaskets are China made for many of the cloners. Good looking and well made. IMAGE is one thing.
MXL spent a lot of money on paint colors and shapes with the exact same internals, so the new releases were often IMAGE only. It got silly almost with so many 990 re-re-releases of the same thing, different body paint.
The unique then is the capsule and electronics parts. The schematics seem to be copied in many cases so its the same schematic, leaving the components as the "sound" differences, right? DIY'ers would maybe know.
Didn't someone write once the Chineese take pride in how good they can copy famous items. It's a pride thing to copy a high end piece.
Is that like doing a Beatle copy song and comparing to the original? or maybe making a new version of something old that is appealing to someone.
Or is it just blatant stealing and undermining someone elses legal and business to put honest money into the hands of corrupt thieves?
its a mind bender.
It's probably why Chineese is still thought of as a "cheap crap" cancerous brand-tattoo, like funding human traffickers or something.
Microphone traffickers with ill intentions? lol
Japan used to be cheap-stereotype but then Toyota, Honda, Lexus and Sony and highest end quality, QC, in their own name brands turned Made in Japan somehow into a stamp of highest quality. IMO. Fender Japan is some of the best strats and guitars Ive played, and acoustic guitars, and the AT 40xx series is the high end mics, while 20x and others mixed with China lower end AT mics. Rode took their company to in-house making it all in Australia, very interesting company and being in house a person knows what they are buying, quality, integrity etc.. I wish Shure would have kept something in the US, like AT did with Japan doing some in China and higher end in Japan.
Chineese fake or real Telefunken, its hard to tell these days?
Telefunken Recording Hacks-
Telefunken M16 and Apex 460 Comparison
Originally published here: http://www.studioreviews.com/m16-460.htm; rescued from Internet obscurity 2010-05-30. EDITOR'S NOTE: November 2006 This comparison
recordinghacks.com
rob aylestone
Moderator
My business is split between music/entertainment and radios. As in mostly boat radios. I supply the prestigious Japanese brands, but also a number of Chinese ones. I discovered that two radios I sell at the premium end - one a handheld and the other a boat mounted version have GPS, which means if you are in trouble, you lift a little red flap and press the emergency button and your registration number, position and other details get sent out automatically. The coastguard will know your name, address and where you are. One day I was programming one of my cheaper Chinese versions and sitting on the desk was the Japanese radio with similar spec. I plugged in the programming cable and it suddenly dawned on me that the two things were actually very similar. I pulled the cable out of the cheaper chinese one and put it into the Japanese one. The software didn't fail, which is common even on the same radio if the firmware version is a few months out - and I could read and write the data from the Chinese one into the Japanese one. The menus were the same - a couple of buttons were the other way around, but that was all. 4 screws later I am inside and everything is identical. PCBs, cable colours, even the white waterproofing around a cable gland. Clearly, the Chinese radio is simply rebadged with the Japanese branding. The one difference is a splash screen when it powers up. The Chinese one does not have this. I wonder if this is the only thing the Japanese firm actually do in Japan to justify the 'made in japan' label?
The handheld is the same - although the rear panel is different so it takes the standard Japanese battery pack that has been used for a few years. The Chinese one has a removable lithium square cell. These also I discovered use the same software - the difference there is one has the Japanese brand on the screen and the other the Chinese. This brands very expensive products probably come from Japan, but the cheaper mass market products are simply rebadged and come from China. I had a faulty one, and ordered the needed part from the cheaper Chinese source - it fitted perfectly. Annoyingly I have had to buy quite a bit of Japanese software to program these, when the Chinese supplier just gave their to me. I'm not sure that a firmware flash is justification for the word 'Made'?
The handheld is the same - although the rear panel is different so it takes the standard Japanese battery pack that has been used for a few years. The Chinese one has a removable lithium square cell. These also I discovered use the same software - the difference there is one has the Japanese brand on the screen and the other the Chinese. This brands very expensive products probably come from Japan, but the cheaper mass market products are simply rebadged and come from China. I had a faulty one, and ordered the needed part from the cheaper Chinese source - it fitted perfectly. Annoyingly I have had to buy quite a bit of Japanese software to program these, when the Chinese supplier just gave their to me. I'm not sure that a firmware flash is justification for the word 'Made'?
CoolCat
Well-known member
yes there's off shoring and there's blackmarketalibaba stuff.
its a shell game if trying to get a feel of where the product was made or if that matters to a person.
Neumann did the TLM series and many people barfed and puked on the product, many embraced them. Tubes turned into the U87i and then a U87ai.
TLM was getting into a new business. Neumann survived, selling to Sennheiser but keeping it in Germany. (it seems for now).
I saw the Chip industry get offshored, Texas Instruments chips stamped on IC but was made in China all "approved" by the Corp Exec's who increased their income and the factory workers laid off in the thousands and thousands. the founder of the IC chip, no longer, needed and Texas Instruments just a name stamped on a chip with most research done by someone else...it turned into a business company, an not an engineer driven company. I read they pay offshored R&D now or just buy a small company for their intellectual propertys.
The actual machines used to make the same chips don't care if they are plugged in at Texas or HongDong or Taipei or Fiji or Miho.
The machines are machines. Shure went that route too, first mexico, just across the border barely, and now China and wherever. But it comes across as a confusing product line to me. Also the line between cheap and the marketing of some infamous product per marketing gets untrustworthy...and the demand on engineering to make a product cheaper and cheaper is a common goal of business so the "engineer original design" turns into plastic, etc..
Seems once a company starts foundry work of their product somehow China blackmarket is making them and even the fake boxes and fake stickers, its nuts?
And maybe there's no contract to prevent China blackmarket from copying and selling the shells and painted body's and boxes.
I went to look at another SM7b but I don't trust the Used market. I see Neumanns the same way. So maybe off brands, or older ones with Rode Australia and everything done in house is more appealing to some of us. Neumann , Germany, Sennheiser.
I'm not a big customer so who cares, there's a lot of mics made everywhere now. and the blackmarket SM57 are probably as good or the same mic for all I know.
But there is the funny part of handing money to the blackmarketers and getting ripped off with a fake mic with a fake capsule in a Reverb purchase or Guitar Center USED pile of crap.
Japan Audio Technica, keeping their upper line in house and having a cheaper line in China seems smarter to me. Like Fender did the Squire and kept the upper in California , with the middle priced Mexico ( a few miles over the border) as a clear product line.
It's just a shoppers hang up, trying not to be ripped off.
but then a lot of cloners supposedly build from the Alibaba Chineese blackmarket stuff and stuff hi-end parts in the body's and sell them for a lot of money.
Which I think of WARM, they do this, as a "premade DIY" company and don't hide it. they offer a version of the great mics, a DIY built for the US, using all kinds of parts from everywhere and are honest about it. Its a price point, like the WA47 tube used is $500, a real U47 is $25,000? but its a "family" of it. Sure the powersupply is a Chineese ps used on many other Chineese mics who cares?
if I was 15 and broke again, Id probably be buying $15 SM57 on Alibaba too. $18 SM58's.....the $99 Sm57-58 could wait until the money comes rolling in as a rockstar!! lol
where does Behringer enter this China picture?
no ones laughing at Behringer much anymore, with the KT1176, KT2A and the dual1073 pre's and the 8channel AD units.
does the blackmarket copy Behringer stuff and sell KT76 for $25? the fake Telefunken plugged into a fake behringerpreamp into a fake behringer-fake?
or does China frown upon blackmarketing China made stuff?
its a shell game if trying to get a feel of where the product was made or if that matters to a person.
Neumann did the TLM series and many people barfed and puked on the product, many embraced them. Tubes turned into the U87i and then a U87ai.
TLM was getting into a new business. Neumann survived, selling to Sennheiser but keeping it in Germany. (it seems for now).
I saw the Chip industry get offshored, Texas Instruments chips stamped on IC but was made in China all "approved" by the Corp Exec's who increased their income and the factory workers laid off in the thousands and thousands. the founder of the IC chip, no longer, needed and Texas Instruments just a name stamped on a chip with most research done by someone else...it turned into a business company, an not an engineer driven company. I read they pay offshored R&D now or just buy a small company for their intellectual propertys.
The actual machines used to make the same chips don't care if they are plugged in at Texas or HongDong or Taipei or Fiji or Miho.
The machines are machines. Shure went that route too, first mexico, just across the border barely, and now China and wherever. But it comes across as a confusing product line to me. Also the line between cheap and the marketing of some infamous product per marketing gets untrustworthy...and the demand on engineering to make a product cheaper and cheaper is a common goal of business so the "engineer original design" turns into plastic, etc..
Seems once a company starts foundry work of their product somehow China blackmarket is making them and even the fake boxes and fake stickers, its nuts?
And maybe there's no contract to prevent China blackmarket from copying and selling the shells and painted body's and boxes.
I went to look at another SM7b but I don't trust the Used market. I see Neumanns the same way. So maybe off brands, or older ones with Rode Australia and everything done in house is more appealing to some of us. Neumann , Germany, Sennheiser.
I'm not a big customer so who cares, there's a lot of mics made everywhere now. and the blackmarket SM57 are probably as good or the same mic for all I know.
But there is the funny part of handing money to the blackmarketers and getting ripped off with a fake mic with a fake capsule in a Reverb purchase or Guitar Center USED pile of crap.
Japan Audio Technica, keeping their upper line in house and having a cheaper line in China seems smarter to me. Like Fender did the Squire and kept the upper in California , with the middle priced Mexico ( a few miles over the border) as a clear product line.
It's just a shoppers hang up, trying not to be ripped off.
but then a lot of cloners supposedly build from the Alibaba Chineese blackmarket stuff and stuff hi-end parts in the body's and sell them for a lot of money.
Which I think of WARM, they do this, as a "premade DIY" company and don't hide it. they offer a version of the great mics, a DIY built for the US, using all kinds of parts from everywhere and are honest about it. Its a price point, like the WA47 tube used is $500, a real U47 is $25,000? but its a "family" of it. Sure the powersupply is a Chineese ps used on many other Chineese mics who cares?
if I was 15 and broke again, Id probably be buying $15 SM57 on Alibaba too. $18 SM58's.....the $99 Sm57-58 could wait until the money comes rolling in as a rockstar!! lol
where does Behringer enter this China picture?
no ones laughing at Behringer much anymore, with the KT1176, KT2A and the dual1073 pre's and the 8channel AD units.
does the blackmarket copy Behringer stuff and sell KT76 for $25? the fake Telefunken plugged into a fake behringerpreamp into a fake behringer-fake?
or does China frown upon blackmarketing China made stuff?
TalismanRich
Well-known member
It's clear that I would never gamble on buying a $600 microphone from China without being absolutely sure that it would be outstanding and perfect. Heck, I didn't even bother spending $28 on the KETS 103, which, based on what I heard on your comparison was somewhat close to the real one in overall tone, although it seemed I heard a slight low frequency buzz on the KETS.
Then I was watching the video on the Lokchonk 614 mic compared to the Sennheiser 614. Rob, I was surprised that you thought they sounded similar. I thought they were MASSIVELY different. Compared to the SM7b, the Lok 614 was completely lacking in high end. The Senn 614 was slightly brighter than the SM7b. You could hear more of the room "air", but there was a low buzzing on the real e614. That surprised me. I wonder if that one has an issue.
If you were looking to get rid of sibilance, the Lokchonk would be great. No high frequencies, no problem with "Sssss"!
I don't really have an issue with a Chinese manufacturer making their version of a high end microphone, but I'm EXTREMELY wary of buying directly from China on AliExpress/Alibaba/DHGate/Temu or even Ebay and Amazon. I would much prefer that they operate more as Warm, Studio Projects, SE, CAD or MXL do. FWIW, I have mics from 4 or those 5 brands. Had I run into an issue with one of the purchases, I could have dealt with Sweetwater, B&H Photo or Guitar Center or the even the manufacturer. I don't feel the same about dealing with Audiostore 5218752 or Jiangmen Audio Store.
I remember an old TV ad where they were discussing the "lifetime warranty" with a customer. "You have two options, you can pack it up and ship it to China or you can bring it in and we'll pack it up and ship it to China." The obvious joke was that WE have people locally to give service and repair.. THEY don't.
Maybe I'm just too old and jaded to embrace the new world order of economics, but for lots of things, I prefer to deal with people that I know.
I also prefer to talk to people on the phone rather than texting.... but I'm coming around slowly on that one!
Then I was watching the video on the Lokchonk 614 mic compared to the Sennheiser 614. Rob, I was surprised that you thought they sounded similar. I thought they were MASSIVELY different. Compared to the SM7b, the Lok 614 was completely lacking in high end. The Senn 614 was slightly brighter than the SM7b. You could hear more of the room "air", but there was a low buzzing on the real e614. That surprised me. I wonder if that one has an issue.
If you were looking to get rid of sibilance, the Lokchonk would be great. No high frequencies, no problem with "Sssss"!
I don't really have an issue with a Chinese manufacturer making their version of a high end microphone, but I'm EXTREMELY wary of buying directly from China on AliExpress/Alibaba/DHGate/Temu or even Ebay and Amazon. I would much prefer that they operate more as Warm, Studio Projects, SE, CAD or MXL do. FWIW, I have mics from 4 or those 5 brands. Had I run into an issue with one of the purchases, I could have dealt with Sweetwater, B&H Photo or Guitar Center or the even the manufacturer. I don't feel the same about dealing with Audiostore 5218752 or Jiangmen Audio Store.
I remember an old TV ad where they were discussing the "lifetime warranty" with a customer. "You have two options, you can pack it up and ship it to China or you can bring it in and we'll pack it up and ship it to China." The obvious joke was that WE have people locally to give service and repair.. THEY don't.
Maybe I'm just too old and jaded to embrace the new world order of economics, but for lots of things, I prefer to deal with people that I know.
I also prefer to talk to people on the phone rather than texting.... but I'm coming around slowly on that one!
TalismanRich
Well-known member
It's funny you mention Behringer. I think that in a lot of cases, they are spot on. I was talking with a fellow about the Behringer "Centaur" episode recently, and we agreed that it was marketing genius. All that lawsuit did was generate free publicity. He also said that comparing the Behringer pedal to the real thing, it was so close that he couldn't tell the difference. I had watched a Youtube video recently and the conclusion was the same.
There are products that require some engineering and have a substantial BOM. But a UA LA-2A is $6000, the 2A KT is $490. Is the BOM+labor in the UA over 10 times more expensive that the BOM of the KT? I doubt it.
Then there are the products that are $20 in parts and $1000, $2000 or even $5000 in hype.
We focus too much on the magic and mystique and that stuff is apparently VERY expensive.