Nylon String/Guitar Question

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Old Music Guy

Old Music Guy

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I just bought a Harley Benton Thinline Nashville Nylon guitar.
The tuning machines are 18:1 typical open back. All but one of the strings (the D string) are original to the guitar. I had to replace the D. I replaced it with a D'Addario Pro-Arte. normal tension, .029" (0.74mm).
My question is: The guitar does not stay in tune after is sits for a few days. It's on a stand in my living room, temp is ~ 71F (21C). I play it at least every other day, but I need to tune it every time I pick it up. They are always flat by 10 or 20 cents. This includes the new D string.
The machines are very tight. Gold plated. Asian.
Not knowing what the tension is on the original strings, should I have replaced the whole set?
Or, can it be a tuning machine problem?
I'm not losing any sleep over this, but I would like to know if anyone else has ever experienced a similar problem?
I should add that none of my electrics, that reside in the same environment, exhibit this problem to this extent.
EDIT: Forgot to add that the guitar goes flat WHILE I'm playing it. DUH!
 
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when i replace the strings on my classical guitar its weeks before it stays in tune.
 
Stretch the strings - re-tune
Stretch again and re-tune again as many times is necessary until any possible winding slippage disappears and they stay in tune.
I doubt very much that there's a problem with the tuners.
Nylon strings can be a bit finicky.
 
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60's guy said:
Stretch the strings - re-tune
Click to expand...
Rinse and repeat (y)
I do that as a matter of course. And, no, that is not the reason that the D string broke! :ROFLMAO:
What I find mildly interesting is that I previously had a Godin nylon. Absolutely gorgeous guitar, but the nut was about 2 inches. Way bigger than my arthritic fingers could make. When I got it, I tuned it, played it, and never had to tune it again. I'd even had it out of the house in a gig bag to drag along to lessons.
 
Just picked up my charity shop nylon strung "classical" which I have not touched for 2 weeks, still in tune.
I replaced the machines a year ago as they were tight, inconsistent and had a lot of backlash. All that makes tuning a guitar heavy going.

A decent set of machines is about £20. The other area to check is where the stings are attached behind the bridge. Are yours just tied? If so I had a lot of creaking and slippage there for the first week or so after a re-string.

Dave.
 
Woke up to another broken string. This time the A. It seems that the strings are breaking at the winding post. I checked for sharp edges but they are beveled. Maybe a little sandpaper to add a bit more relief.
I looked at GOTOH machines and they look identical to what is on there now. They are tight, but very little lash.
The strings are tied with a luthier's knot at the bridge. Maybe I'll try a knot at the bridge (like a ball end) and see if that helps.
 
Old Music Guy said:
Woke up to another broken string. This time the A. It seems that the strings are breaking at the winding post. I checked for sharp edges but they are beveled. Maybe a little sandpaper to add a bit more relief.
I looked at GOTOH machines and they look identical to what is on there now. They are tight, but very little lash.
The strings are tied with a luthier's knot at the bridge. Maybe I'll try a knot at the bridge (like a ball end) and see if that helps.
Click to expand...
I'm sure that you know how to string a classical nylon string guitar.
For anyone new to stringing a nylon string git

How to Restring a Classical Guitar | Guitarbitz

Restringing a classical guitar can be one of the trickiest jobs in standard guitar maintenance. A particular set of steps need to take place to ensure the strings are knotted properly and prevent any string slips and tuning issues further down the line. This guide will clearly break it down step...
www.guitarbitz.com www.guitarbitz.com
 
Old Music Guy said:
Woke up to another broken string. This time the A. It seems that the strings are breaking at the winding post. I checked for sharp edges but they are beveled. Maybe a little sandpaper to add a bit more relief.
I looked at GOTOH machines and they look identical to what is on there now. They are tight, but very little lash.
The strings are tied with a luthier's knot at the bridge. Maybe I'll try a knot at the bridge (like a ball end) and see if that helps.
Click to expand...
Don't want to teach grannies...but you are winding a good bit of string on the winding post BEFORE popping it through the hole?

The tight machines might actually be binding in the holes in the headstock, mine were and I just ran a handy size bigger drill through them but you could use sandpaper on a split dowel. Rub some candle or hard soap in the holes. A smear of Moly grease on the works, works wonders (or any grease you have handy. Re-packed the wheel bearings on the car lately!)

Dave.
 
60's guy said:
I'm sure that you know how to string a classical nylon string guitar.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but no, I really didn't know. I will say that I was close, but not exactly. I missed the second tail loop at the bridge. Same with the loop at the post. I didn't make a loop.
Thanks very much for the tutorial! Much obliged.

ecc83 said:
Don't want to teach grannies...but you are winding a good bit of string on the winding post BEFORE popping it through the hole?
Click to expand...
Granny? Grandpa if you please :ROFLMAO:
No, I wound it like an electric. Remember, I only changed one string so far. Not a whole set, though I think that may be in my future.
And I agree with you about the lube. I have a very good Teflon lube that I used on my pedal steel. It's used by bicycle racers on their gears and things. Not goopy, sprays on, quite nice actually.
 
ecc83 said:
Don't want to teach grannies...but you are winding a good bit of string on the winding post BEFORE popping it through the hole?

The tight machines might actually be binding in the holes in the headstock, mine were and I just ran a handy size bigger drill through them but you could use sandpaper on a split dowel. Rub some candle or hard soap in the holes. A smear of Moly grease on the works, works wonders (or any grease you have handy. Re-packed the wheel bearings on the car lately!)

Dave.
Click to expand...
Great advice with the suggestion of drilling a slightly larger hole, but now that I think about a bit more, a small diameter shallow 82° counter sink on both sides of the winder post just might be helpful enough to alleviate sharp angles and sharp edges on the winder posts.
Your thoughts?
 
I'll need to dig into the mechanics before I know what's going on. I think I know where to go from here. Thank you, gentlemen.
I only want to do this once, so I will use all your suggestions.
Thanks
 
I somewhat doubt that it's the tuning machines slipping. I've replaced tuners but only because several were getting tight. It was never for slippage. A tuner that was slipping that much would probably feel really sloppy. As for the string breakage, I don't know how consistent nylon strings are as far a composition. There are lots of grades of nylon, just like there are different grades of steel. Barring any sharp surfaces, I would try using a set of very good strings, not the stock ones. Spring for a set of La Bellas or D'Addarios, maybe one stop lighter gauge to lower tension.

I have a couple of guitars that will always be slightly out of tune after sitting a few days, others that seem to never change. I think it's due more to the wood in the neck, the orientation of the grain, if it's one piece, quarter sawn vs rift sawn wood, how dry it is, and how much moisture it can absorb because of the finish, which can change the actual length of the wood very slightly.

And of course, strings themselves will stretch. I once ran acxross a fellow who was trying to sell a device that had two small pegs with a plastic handle. His idea was to put on new strings, tune the guitar, then use this device to stretch the string before you do a final tuning. I do the same thing by just doing about a 2 or 3 note bend. The string goes flat and I just tune it again.
 
TalismanRich said:
I somewhat doubt that it's the tuning machines slipping.
Click to expand...
Exactly! Slipping strings don't all of sudden snap and break. Every tuning post has a straight hole drilled through it that results in a guitar string needing to make a 90° sharp turn which is just fine for steel strings, but Nylon strings do NOT possess the same tensile and shear strength as steel strings.
Nylon strings are inherently weak.
 
Are you tuners steel or plastic posts? Most nylon guitars should have plastic. The ones that have steel posts usually are chamfered.
 
elly-d said:
when i replace the strings on my classical guitar its weeks before it stays in tune.
Click to expand...
Same here, but they do settle down eventually.
I don't bother replacing the unwound classical strings. The old ones sound better when they get a bit brittle.
I keep several new string packs in the case, but only replace the one string that deteriorated.
 
The metal post machines for steel strings all seem to have a chrome finish which tells me the base metal is brass? You don't usually chrome plate steel? Nevertheless a chrome finish is going to be very hard, at least as hard as the string so there will be little chance of damage (think gearboxes, both meshing gears are equally hard and don't wear each other for 100s of 1000s of miles, IF lubricated of course!) I would suggest the nylon string and the faux ivory winding post are of equally similar hardness and thus won't damage each other?

Dave.
 
Stringing classical guitars can be a pain. They stretch a lot more than electric guitar strings and they slip easily if not installed well.

As to your breakage issue, I don’t know what’s causing that. Possibly a bur or sharp edge. (Just a guess)

Here’s a decent video on restringing.



Here’s one from good old Dan. He has a classical builder show the procedure.

 
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