Gavin Newsom for 2024!

[Mr. ROUSH]

It is you that talks of just 'two'. You talk of capitalism bad and socialism good. Capitalism and socialism good and bad is what 'you' keep talking about.

Tell me where have you lived and what kind of system did they have? A socialist system or a capitalist system? Or maybe other? After all if you have personal experience of these systems then surely you can explain their merits or possibly not?

And then we know ............you know what you are talking about.

Straw man argument. Never once did I say that socialism is good or bad. No political ideology is inherently good or bad. I’m not sure why you would jump in this conversation with such a weak argument.

Let’s be clear about the reality. America has already adapted many socialist policies. Obviously, to anyone willing to exercise common sense, the best ideology is a combination of the best policies from many ideologies. People who are capable of independent thinking don’t generalize anything as all good or all bad. That’s why I have not done so and why I have obviously criticized those who have.

The bottom line is that nobody is suggesting pure socialism or pure communism. If you can’t acknowledge and debate the actual arguments being made, then there’s still room at the kid’s table.

Here’s a revelation for you. Putting people before corporate profits isn’t radical. The constitution demands it. None of the policies proposed by progressives are radical. There is SUPPOSED to be system of checks and balances to curb excessive greed and corporate corruption, tax evasion, etc. If your interest is a healthy economy, you’ll never achieve it without doing this. It’s that simple.

So, more straw man arguments coming from you, or are you gonna say anything substantive?

 

[Mr. ROUSH]

That's Roush speaking his native democrat language.
Translation: "I don't know shit about what I'm saying, so I'll just get mad and call you more names,
and since you left my butt hanging out to dry, I'm gonna write an epistle about it. "



So that's why you are here writing a book. It was the appeal to your ignorance. Got it.

View attachment 113902

You’re delusional. The man with nothing but unproven conspiracies and logical fallacies proclaims that someone doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Spoken like a dumbass with a bruised ego. You’re frustrated by your inability to make any intelligent arguments. No surprise.

 

[Mr. ROUSH]

For fuck's sake, you're the biggest whiner and complainer in this thread. "Nothing works!"

I thought you said there was no conversation to be had here and no point in continuing? Another bruised ego. You can’t shut that big dumb mouth of yours. I never even addressed you to begin with. You’re the one who responded to a comment that wasn’t even directed at you and then continued with a barrage of moronic rhetoric. You have yet to offer one single substantive, valuable argument. Typical for a bigoted conservative who can’t cope with facts.

 

[Orson]

Straw man argument. Never once did I say that socialism is good or bad. No political ideology is inherently good or bad. I’m not sure why you would jump in this conversation with such a weak argument.

Let’s be clear about the reality. America has already adapted many socialist policies. Obviously, to anyone willing to exercise common sense, the best ideology is a combination of the best policies from many ideologies. People who are capable of independent thinking don’t generalize anything as all good or all bad. That’s why I have not done so and why I have obviously criticized those who have.

The bottom line is that nobody is suggesting pure socialism or pure communism. If you can’t acknowledge and debate the actual arguments being made, then there’s still room at the kid’s table.

Here’s a revelation for you. Putting people before corporate profits isn’t radical. The constitution demands it. None of the policies proposed by progressives are radical. There is SUPPOSED to be system of checks and balances to curb excessive greed and corporate corruption, tax evasion, etc. If your interest is a healthy economy, you’ll never achieve it without doing this. It’s that simple.

Just because you are an American does not give you any more insight and extra special powers to make 'your' kind of socialism work where everybody elses has failed. You will fail in exactly the same way because it is flawed. It was an idea and a dream and has killed tens of millions by those who thought they knew better.

 

[WWLaidback]

I have listed the points in your reply so you can clearly understand my answer because in the strawman argument doesnt apply to me. I say this because I live in a very 'Socialist' country where all parties are Socialist even the terrorists.

Also I have lived elsewhere under Socialist governments and what others would say are 'Right Wing' governments.

Just because a policy is 'correct' and for the people mean it is a 'Socialist policy'. Any country which didnt have policies which protect the people in some way or another would be a dictatorship which is where your confusion lies.

Common sense is just that and not applying to only 'Socialists'. But I can tell you that it is Socialists who lose all common sense when they have the power. This usually always happens because 'Socialism' does not work. I do not say that lightly. But 'Socialism' is fundamentally flawed as soon as you practice it, because it means spending lots of money which doesnt exist to implement the Socialist policies which although well meaning in the beginning. End up wild and outrageous, because everybody wants a bite of the cherry. The way to do this is simply claim you are disadvantaged. Then you fall under the Socialist agenda of fairness.

Business earns money. Business means employment. Business means taxation revenue for Socialist policies. ........... As soon as any Socialist government wants more. Business just moves away. Which is why Socialist government always end in high unemployment and a ruined economy. There is no other way, because Socialist policies cost so much money that it means high taxes to either pay for them or to pay back the loans that have been taken out to pay for the policies.

Open door immigration is radical. It was a stupid idea by a Communist and it means ......... An overloaded health service. An overloaded benefits system. An increase in crime just simply on a percentage of the general population is criminal. An increase in basically everything because of more people. The trouble is, the people arrive en-mass instead of a steady growth over many years which would allow the system to adjust. Any system will get overloaded this way and begin to fall apart. This it does in ever case.

Throughout Europe they are now turning their backs on open door immigration. Even the socialists because the votes didn't come. What is also happening is the the immigrants now want there own kind of government and system and not the socialist ones who opened the doors.

Socialism is not the magical answer. It's been tried and failed every time and many times.

Just because you are an American does not give you any more insight and extra special powers to make 'your' kind of socialism work where everybody elses has failed. You will fail in exactly the same way because it is flawed. It was an idea and a dream and has killed tens of millions by those who thought they knew better.

Well said, Orson.
Why should I work in a socialist country when I can sit on my can all day and wait for my check to come in?
I get paid the same either way, and I have more time to do what I want, rather than working at a crummy job.
This is just common sense to most people.
Your comment is worthy of a share.
Are you in England?

 

[Orson]

Well said, Orson.
Why should I work in a socialist country when I can sit on my can all day and wait for my check to come in?
I get paid the same either way, and I have more time to do what I want, rather than working at a crummy job.
This is just common sense to most people.

That isnt what is intended to happen under the benefits system but always does happen.

 

[WWLaidback]

You’re delusional. The man with nothing but unproven conspiracies and logical fallacies proclaims that someone doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Spoken like a dumbass with a bruised ego. You’re frustrated by your inability to make any intelligent arguments. No surprise.

This guy blames his farts on everyone else.

 

[WWLaidback]

Straw man argument.

Your brain doesn't work right dude.
You have 3 people telling you the same thing.
Get a clue.

 

[Mr. ROUSH]

I have listed the points in your reply so you can clearly understand my answer because in the strawman argument doesnt apply to me. I say this because I live in a very 'Socialist' country where all parties are Socialist even the terrorists.

Also I have lived elsewhere under Socialist governments and what others would say are 'Right Wing' governments.

Just because a policy is 'correct' and for the people mean it is a 'Socialist policy'. Any country which didnt have policies which protect the people in some way or another would be a dictatorship which is where your confusion lies.

Common sense is just that and not applying to only 'Socialists'. But I can tell you that it is Socialists who lose all common sense when they have the power. This usually always happens because 'Socialism' does not work. I do not say that lightly. But 'Socialism' is fundamentally flawed as soon as you practice it, because it means spending lots of money which doesnt exist to implement the Socialist policies which although well meaning in the beginning. End up wild and outrageous, because everybody wants a bite of the cherry. The way to do this is simply claim you are disadvantaged. Then you fall under the Socialist agenda of fairness.

Business earns money. Business means employment. Business means taxation revenue for Socialist policies. ........... As soon as any Socialist government wants more. Business just moves away. Which is why Socialist government always end in high unemployment and a ruined economy. There is no other way, because Socialist policies cost so much money that it means high taxes to either pay for them or to pay back the loans that have been taken out to pay for the policies.

Open door immigration is radical. It was a stupid idea by a Communist and it means ......... An overloaded health service. An overloaded benefits system. An increase in crime just simply on a percentage of the general population is criminal. An increase in basically everything because of more people. The trouble is, the people arrive en-mass instead of a steady growth over many years which would allow the system to adjust. Any system will get overloaded this way and begin to fall apart. This it does in ever case.

Throughout Europe they are now turning their backs on open door immigration. Even the socialists because the votes didn't come. What is also happening is the the immigrants now want there own kind of government and system and not the socialist ones who opened the doors.

Socialism is not the magical answer. It's been tried and failed every time and many times.

Just because you are an American does not give you any more insight and extra special powers to make 'your' kind of socialism work where everybody elses has failed. You will fail in exactly the same way because it is flawed. It was an idea and a dream and has killed tens of millions by those who thought they knew better.

While I will give you credit for attempting to make a substantive argument, you have ultimately only illustrated my point. You are completely distorting and convoluting anything actually being argued by progressives. You're using generic stereotypes and generalizing any kind of socialist policy as a "slippery slope." That's called fear mongering. It's scare tactics, and it's completely unrelated to the reality.

Let's use rent for example. Would rent control be a slippery slope into dictatorship? I mean, as it stands, millions of people can't even afford to live where they work. If you can't see why that's not sustainable, then your issue is much deeper than a fundamental lack of understanding when it comes to economics. The average rent in population centers is absolutely astronomical and completely counterproductive to any kind of healthy economy. There's only one solution. It's not a mystery. We know how to fix the economy, but the wealthiest Americans don't want to sacrifice ANY potential profit, even though it's of no consequence to their standards of living. Meanwhile, children starve to death and America has the highest child poverty rate in the world, falling well behind many countries with varying degrees of social democracy. The richest country in the world has the highest child poverty rate by far..... let that sink in.

You're doing exactly what I said. You're generalizing any amount of social democracy as "pure socialism." That's demonstrably false. Be objective and stop misrepresenting the arguments being made. Stop pretending that it's all or nothing. It's common sense to use successful policies that work, period. Every policy developed by a socialist isn't inherently good or bad. Common sense tells us to judge each policy on the merits of its own success or failure. Being American doesn't give me any insight into anything, per se Being an objective person who is willing to consider all facts does. Using one good idea that was born from an overall flawed ideology does not constitute your insinuation that we're in any way trying to adapt the entire ideology of socialism, wherein the government owns and controls the means of production and distribution. At this point, it seems a lot like you don't actually even understand the ideologies you're talking about.

Immigration has absolutely nothing to do with the argument. Being in favor of things like tuition free education and nationalized healthcare does not in any way imply that a person must also automatically be in favor of open borders. If you want to know my opinion on borders, I will tell you. It has absolutely nothing to do with my opinion on social democracy. Truth is, borders are imaginary. Conservatives hate diversity and fear losing power over it. They invent imaginary crises for their imaginary borders to keep their base intact and feeling empowered about their intolerance. It's the same thing that's been going on for decades. Lo and behold, it wasn't immigrants killing American jobs. Lo and behold, nobody ever came to take all the guns. Which imaginary crisis will conservatives come up with next? Will the imaginary war on Christmas ever end?

 

[Mr. ROUSH]

Your brain doesn't work right dude.
You have 3 people telling you the same thing.
Get a clue.

100 people making uneducated statements doesn't trump one person reciting facts. I understand that a mob mentality makes you feel less insecure about your ignorance. But, rest assured, you're still dumb as a sock. There's not a single substantive argument that has been made between the three of you.

 

[WWLaidback]

People are leaving population centers because of the ridiculous cost of living t

All the population centers just happen to be democrat shitholes. That's just a coincidence right?

YOU and every moron like you, stupid! What you’re describing is exactly unfettered capitalism, idiot.

I like my IRA, don't you like yours?
I'm living rather comfortably off of mine.
Now , if we could just get some socialist policies out of the way, my daughter could get a real job instead of avoiding the AHCA-quotas with multiple part-time jobs.
She makes too much for Medicaid and not enough for Obamacare.
She has to be unemployed for Medicaid. What a disincentive to work.
You have nothing to offer her.

 

[Orson]

While I will give you credit for attempting to make a substantive argument, you have ultimately only illustrated my point. You are completely distorting and convoluting anything actually being argued by progressives. You're using generic stereotypes and generalizing any kind of socialist policy as a "slippery slope." That's called fear mongering. It's scare tactics, and it's completely unrelated to the reality.

Let's use rent for example. Would rent control be a slippery slope into dictatorship? I mean, as it stands, millions of people can't even afford to live where they work. If you can't see why that's not sustainable, then your issue is much deeper than a fundamental lack of understanding when it comes to economics. The average rent in population centers is absolutely astronomical and completely counterproductive to any kind of healthy economy. There's only one solution. It's not a mystery. We know how to fix the economy, but the wealthiest Americans don't want to sacrifice ANY potential profit, even though it's of no consequence to their standards of living. Meanwhile, children starve to death and America has the highest child poverty rate in the world, falling well behind many countries with varying degrees of social democracy. The richest country in the world has the highest child poverty rate by far..... let that sink in.

You're doing exactly what I said. You're generalizing any amount of social democracy as "pure socialism." That's demonstrably false. Be objective and stop misrepresenting the arguments being made. Stop pretending that it's all or nothing. It's common sense to use successful policies that work, period. Every policy developed by a socialist isn't inherently good or bad. Common sense tells us to judge each policy on the merits of its own success or failure. Being American doesn't give me any insight into anything, per se Being an objective person who is willing to consider all facts does. Using one good idea that was born from an overall flawed ideology does not constitute your insinuation that we're in any way trying to adapt the entire ideology of socialism, wherein the government owns and controls the means of production and distribution. At this point, it seems a lot like you don't actually even understand the ideologies you're talking about.

Immigration has absolutely nothing to do with the argument. Being in favor of things like tuition free education and nationalized healthcare does not in any way imply that a person must also automatically be in favor of open borders. If you want to know my opinion on borders, I will tell you. It has absolutely nothing to do with my opinion on social democracy. Truth is, borders are imaginary. Conservatives hate diversity and fear losing power over it. They invent imaginary crises for their imaginary borders to keep their base intact and feeling empowered about their intolerance. It's the same thing that's been going on for decades. Lo and behold, it wasn't immigrants killing American jobs. Lo and behold, nobody ever came to take all the guns. Which imaginary crisis will conservatives come up with next? Will the imaginary war on Christmas ever end?

Trying to pick and choose what bits of Socialism or Capitalism you want and putting them together and hoping they work? Do you think it has never been done before?

But hey you're an American!!!! Of course its going to work. Just like everything else you manage to f*** up in the world.

 

[Supercreep]

*You're

 

[Mick Doobie]

I thought you said there was no conversation to be had here and no point in continuing? Another bruised ego. You can’t shut that big dumb mouth of yours. I never even addressed you to begin with. You’re the one who responded to a comment that wasn’t even directed at you and then continued with a barrage of moronic rhetoric. You have yet to offer one single substantive, valuable argument. Typical for a bigoted conservative who can’t cope with facts.

You mad bro?

There's no use in discussion with this guy. He can't be taken seriously. I suspect something is not quite right in the head. I don't say that to poke fun, but you can't rationalize with crazy.

Rational would be the cognitive ability to understand you can't have an "imaginary border" and ever expanding social programs at the same time. For most it would not be necessary to detail the consequences. Lamentations over impoverished children in the US would suggest already overburdened and/or underserved demographic in need of government funded social programs through taxation. An open border allowing a never ending influx of the impoverished would inevitably collapse under the weight of balancing the ability to provide social programs and the necessity to fund those programs through taxation.

Alas, in spite of these realities the irrational and simple minded would prattle on about fear mongering and conservatives hate diversity. Indoctrinated in stupidity, or a fucking nut.

 

[Mr. ROUSH]

All the population centers just happen to be democrat shitholes. That's just a coincidence right?



I like my IRA, don't you like yours?
I'm living rather comfortably off of mine.
Now , if we could just get some socialist policies out of the way, my daughter could get a real job instead of avoiding the AHCA-quotas with multiple part-time jobs.
She makes too much for Medicaid and not enough for Obamacare.
She has to be unemployed for Medicaid. What a disincentive to work.
You have nothing to offer her.

Mindless propaganda. There's a reason you've landed on a music production forum, not having any involvement in producing music whatsoever as far as anyone can tell, to spread absolute bigoted nonsense. As if conservative policies have nothing to do with poverty? Nobody has anything to offer your daughter, because your generation of brainless morons screwed her over. She could afford insurance if you sellouts wouldn't have insisted there be no public option.. because... "socialism." Bunch of absolute dipshits.

 

[WWLaidback]

Rent control is absolutely laughable. You appear to think you have just discovered the Golden Fleece or something.

Good one Orson. Good one.

 

[WWLaidback]

There's not a single substantive argument that has been made between the three of you.

You mean.... like my daughter having to work part time jobs because of the Obamacare mandates?
You understand how that works, right?
Her age group was doing okay in the full-time job market until Obamacare.
It's easy to understand why. Why don't you ask one of them?

 

[WWLaidback]

Mindless propaganda. There's a reason you've landed on a music production forum, not having any involvement in producing music whatsoever as far as anyone can tell, to spread absolute bigoted nonsense.

Got trigger finger on the left hand, maybe I'll be back to recording after surgery.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChkuU3Z8b6J-ErUev8AGEpA

Nobody has anything to offer your daughter, because your generation of brainless morons screwed her over.

I'm grooming a business for her. Nasty ole capitalism at work, ya know.
Hey I got a name for your band.
How about Roush the douche and the young bleeders. Catchy.

 

[Mr. ROUSH]

I am not trying to make any argument and certainly not part of your slanging match. I am telling you what I know through living under such systems for all of my life. There are other UK based members who can also tell you similar stories. They may even be socialists as well. I have no idea and please do not think I am a raging Capitalist. Because I am not.

Rent control is absolutely laughable. You appear to think you have just discovered the Golden Fleece or something.

I will explain.................... There was no house market in the UK until the mid 70's. Until then you put your name down for a Council/Local Authority house provided by the state. Huge thousand house house estates built with Government money. Most identical and we of that age all grew up in them........until we were lucky to escape!

You paid a fixed rate rent which was very low. The rents were supposed to cover the upkeep and pay for more rebuilds. The rent revenue soon fell behind the money needed so this then became another burden on the tax payer to where the costs were just totally obscene and unmanagable. Older rental houses require more money etc.

These low rental council houses became more and more run down. This attracted undesirables and you can guess the rest.

At first chance the government got rid of them and made it a choice to tenants to buy them cheaply. Some tenants did and resold them at first chance and got out. The rest were taken over by corporations who increased rents. The others bulldozed and good riddence. None have been built since which may tell you something.

Today I live in another country. A socialist country where every political party is a socialist even the terrorists political wing. They do build some rental houses which end up the same. Sold to tenants cheaply and then resold to get out.

They also talk of rent control, but then in every way the owners find a way out of it. They will either sell to private home buyers or only rent as holiday or short lets to renters. The result is the biggest housing crisis the country has ever known since the landlords evicted them and sent them all over to America 150 years ago.

You have no fantastic idea. You have no golden fleece. You have no Einstein theory.................What you do have is just tired old bollox that has been done before over and over again in many places.

Trying to pick and choose what bits of Socialism or Capitalism you want and putting them together and hoping they work? Do you think it has never been done before?

But hey you're an American!!!! Of course its going to work. Just like everything else you manage to f*** up in the world.

Well, look.... that's record time for a circular argument. It's painfully obvious at this point that you really don't have any clue what you're talking about and are not educated in the least about any of these ideologies or policies therein.

You don't have anything to explain to anyone here. Your anecdotal evidence and fear mongering is a bunch of garbage. I don't care what your experience with rent control has been with policies as they've existed where you live. They're completely irrelevant, just like your anecdotal opinion of them.

There's really no nice way to put this to you. Basic math escapes you as you sit here making wildly distorted excuses to do absolutely nothing about an unsustainable problem. Right now, the average rent in population centers for a 700 sq ft 1 room studio is $1200-$1600. On the low end, that puts average rent around 50% of the average income in this state. That's absolutely absurd. If this basic math is lost on you, and if the solution is lost on you, at least spare the rest of us all your fear mongering and anecdotal generalizations.

Yes, actually installing policy based on how effective the policy is instead of your emotional opinion of what the policy is labeled or what color it is. Yes, of course it has been done before. It is being done very successfully every day in many countries including America. Do you hate roads? Do you hate public schools and libraries? Do you prefer to fight your own fires and solve your own crimes?

Sounds like you're the one who feels entitled based on where you live. You keep acting like I've used the fact that I'm American to support anything to do with any points I've made. I never have. You might just need to get over yourself and deal with the anti-American sentiment. Again, your claims are all purely anecdotal. I've spent time in the UK. The owner of the York Roast Co in York told me that he absolutely loved the healthcare system there. He said he couldn't believe that America still hasn't instituted universal healthcare. An entire room full of people born and raised in the UK all agreed and were dumbfounded that Americans allow their health to be subject to profit and a privilege for only those who can afford it. I'd say that the majority of people in the UK probably feel the same way. So, I'll take their example over yours, since you've made so many faulty arguments that aren't supported by facts.

 

[Mick Doobie]

^^ Dismisses someone's personal life experience as mere anecdotal evidence. Goes on to describe how what someone told him is evidence to support his argument.

I'm telling you, this guy is not right in the head. Waste of time.