The Guitar Tone and Mix Thread

[BroKen_H]

That is a REALLY nice clean tone! Don't even know what to say that you didn't already say...

Thanks for sharing. If I ever win the lotto, I'll look into that amp for sure!

 

[andrushkiwt]

I auditioned the Tubemeister 18 for a cleanish rhythm part of a song. Here's the result.

Are you going to incorporate this amp into old songs, or is it for tunes going forward? Sounds really, really good.

 

[Robus]

Thanks. This was one of my go-to amps before I got the Mesa 5:25 back in October. It's on lots of my songs. It's still in the rotation, though I'm not using it as often as before.

 

[Robus]

Telecaster and Fender Princeton Reverb Classic

While I'm at it... Same as above, but using the silverface Princeton 15 watt combo. I've had this amp about a year. It gets used pretty often. It's Fender's spinoff from the '65 blackface reissue. It is voiced for earlier breakup and uses a Celestion Vintage 10. It has taken the speaker a long time to break in, though it seems to be mellowing. The V10 in my late-90s Trace-Elliot Velocette is one of the best sounding speakers I have ever played, so hopes are high.



I dual miked the amp with an SM57 and a Sennheiser e906, then panned the tracks apart and blended them. Just for fun, the ending is a mix with the Princeton and Tubemeister blended together.

What do you all think? Comparing the Princeton to the Tubemeister, I hear a big difference between the open and closed back cabs. The closed back 1x12 projects focused mids and tighter bottom. The Princeton's open cab gives that classic Fender scoop in the mids, and a squishier bottom. I like them both, though the Fender sound gets used more often in the music I'm doing these days.

Te PRC 906 57 blend.mp3 - Google Drive

 

[andrushkiwt]

What do you all think?

Sounds much better in the mix than on its own, while the previous amp/cab sounded better in both situations. The first one was just phenomenal, in my opinion.

 

[BroKen_H]

I don't know what it is, but I'm not getting something out of that tone. For a Fender through Fender tone, it doesn't have the clarity I'm used to, and seems just a little dull. I mean, I'm not looking for AMAZINGLY bright, but which pickup were you using and can you do that again with a little brighter pickup selection, or some more treble in the pickup(s)? It sounds almost like you were on the neck only...that tele should sound a bit brighter through there (IMO).

 

[Robus]

Listening again, I agree. Partly, it might be that the Tubemeister is double tracked, whereas with the Princeton it's a single take with two mics panned opposite. But the Tubemeister clip is just a little cleaner, a real edge-of-breakup tone wheres the Princeton is beyond that, into drive territory. On the mix part of the second clip, you are hearing some of the Tubemeister mixed in too.

If I had it to do over again, I would have bought the blackface reissue Princeton rather than the silverface. It's a nice amp and well worth having, but in retrospect I would like a little more clean headroom. I'd like to push that speaker harder before the amp begins to break up. Then again, that early breakup has its uses too.

Very interesting. I've got some time tomorrow afternoon. Maybe I'll try out more amps. There is the Mesa, the Fender Deluxe, the Velocette, and the Marshall 40 watt combo.

 

[Robus]

Telecaster and Fender Deluxe Reverb '65 Reissue

Continuing on....here is the Deluxe Reverb.



This would be my desert island amp. It's the same song as the two above, Tele soloed then the mix. To make a fair comparison, I double tracked the Deluxe. On each track, I'm using a blend of the SM57 and the e906. Both tracks use the spring reverb. One of them has a Memory Boy delay in front of the amp.

Volume is between 4 and 5, which is where this amp begins to break up. The contrast with the Princeton is striking. I went cleaner this time. There's a dimension that I'm not hearing in the Princeton. Though to be fair, I should have double tracked the Princeton too.

This clip shows why the Deluxe is such a workhorse. This tone would fit in any song I've recorded in the past couple of years.

However, I'll have to say the Tubemeister is still winning the shootout at this point. More to come.

Te DRRI 906 57 blend_double tracked_solo + mix.mp3 - Google Drive

Here are a couple of odds and ends, same setup as the previous. The solo part is from a song that's finished and in Dave's queue for drums. It'll show up at the Clinic one of these days. Guitar soloed, then the mix. I let the mix clip run on a little longer, as I'm happy with the guitars generally on this song.

Te DRRI 906 57 blend_lets ride solo then mix.mp3 - Google Drive

I'm not sure the Deluxe is right for this solo. My go-to for that kind of spanky, Tele-ish solo thing is the Trace-Elliot Velocette. It has an uncanny ability to sit low in a busy mix and still cut through clearly, whereas you can hear the Deluxe is getting a bit lost. I'll retrack with the Velocette and post the results.

 

[Robus]

Telecaster and Trace-Elliot Velocette

Here is the Trace-Elliot Velocette. It's a 15 watt combo with a pair of EL84s and a Vintage 10. Is is surprising loud. I bought this amp new in the early 2000s. These days, I use it mostly when I want a certain lead guitar sound, often with a Tele. If you've been listening to my songs with Nick and Dave, you've heard it a quite a few times.



What I like about this amp is its ability to slot into a mix and be heard clearly, without needing to be too loud. It's got a bold tone, fairly bright, straightforward rather than subtle. Really responsive to your playing. I have a tendency to pluck notes with my right hand for emphasis. This amp likes that kind of stuff.

So here are two clips. The first is the same song as all the previous ones. I stuck with the two mic arrangement, 57 and 906. I double tracked the part. One track has the Memory Boy delay in front of the amp, the other is bone dry since there is no reverb on the Velocette. I panned the two wide apart. Volume and tone knobs on the amp were about 12:00, which is edge of breakup with this guitar.

Tele Velo 57_906 blend doubled guitars then mix.mp3 - Google Drive

Here is the Velo with the lead guitar part that I tried first with the Fender Deluxe in the last post. The amp volume is at about 3:00, so pretty saturated. I tracked the Memory Boy in front of the amp, as per my usual practice of tracking guitar FX. Since I won't be adding ambiance ITB to guitars, the delay is all the ambiance it will get. However, I'm thinking the pedal might be introducing a little harshness, so need to reevaluate.

This is miked through the 57. I double tracked a couple of bars to help enunciate that sixteenth note ascending passage that begins at measure five of the solo. Otherwise it's single tracked. The mix follows. I wanted this solo part to sit over on the left side, as low as possible while still being heard clearly.

Tele Velo 57 lets ride solo then then mix.mp3 - Google Drive

 

[Robus]

Telecaster and Mesa Boogie V 25.

One last clip. Same as all the above, this time through the Mesa 25 watt head and closed back 1x12 cab. I'm using the 25 watt setting, clean channel, "fat" mode. This mode seems to be working best for me in most situations, regardless of guitar. Graphic EQ is turned off, master dimed and gain about 11:00. The mids are rolled back slightly.



Same blend of SM57 and e906. I double tracked the part and panned wide. Both tracks are using the amp reverb. One of the tracks has the Memory Boy delay in the loop.

Tele MB fa 57 906 blend_ solo then mix.mp3 - Google Drive

It has been interesting to compare these amps. If you're familiar with any of my songs, you know the kind of rhythm part I've playing here shows up a lot in my music. All in all, I'm still thinking that the Tubemeister brought something special. But it's good to have choices and options.

Eventually I'll do another shootout with a different song and different guitar.

 

[Robus]

SG and H&K Tubemeister 18

Stuck for lyrics on a few songs I'm trying to finish, so I spent the day messing around with guitars. Here is the SG through the Tubemeister. I was going for more of a crunch tone this time. It's the 18 watt setting, drive channel, master volume dimed, gain at about 11:00, mid knob boosted to about 3:00. It's the 1x12 closed back cab again, miked with the SM57 and e906 and blended.

I doubled the parts and panned them opposite. One of the doubles has the Memory Boy delay in the loop, the other is dry.

SG_TM_58_906 doubled_guitar then mix.mp3 - Google Drive

I'm starting to get back into this amp again. There's a rawness that I'm not finding in the Boogie.

 

[BroKen_H]

I really like the Trace Elliot sound on everything you showed. It has a clean and distinct sound. I'd use it with the tubemeister to get some great blends. Tasty stuff there.

The solo on the Deluxe sounds very George Harrison while the music is kind of Mark Knopfler (ish)...interesting combo I'm not sure I'm fond of.

Oddly, the Boogie is just kind of there. Nothing wrong with it, just nothing that sparkles to my ears. Then again, we know how good 56 year old ears are!

 

[Robus]

I really like the Trace Elliot sound on everything you showed. It has a clean and distinct sound. I'd use it with the tubemeister to get some great blends. Tasty stuff there.

The solo on the Deluxe sounds very George Harrison while the music is kind of Mark Knopfler (ish)...interesting combo I'm not sure I'm fond of.

Oddly, the Boogie is just kind of there. Nothing wrong with it, just nothing that sparkles to my ears. Then again, we know how good 56 year old ears are!

Thanks, man. The Boogie is not intuitive to dial in. Eight months with that amp and I am still learning its nuances. In that particular clip I scooped the mids too much. It works on an open back cab but I am learning the closed back needs a different EQ approach. The Tubemeister is a blast! I'm reconnecting with it. It really likes that Mesa 1x12 cab, much better than the one I originally bought for it.

Okay, here's something else. It's the same as the last post, but using the Marshall DSL40c combo. It is the SG again, bridge pickup. Amp is on the 40 watt setting, clean channel, crunch mode, master volume dimed, gain at 11:00. Mid control about 2:00.



I blended the SM57 and e906 and double tracked the part. One of the tracks has the Memory Boy delay in front of the amp, the other is straight in. I did dial in some of the amp's reverb but the effect is negligible. Better to leave it off.

SG_DSL_58_906 blend_ doubled_guitar then mix.mp3 - Google Drive

How does this compare to the Meister?

 

[Robus]

SG and Mesa Boogie V 25

Same tune as the last couple. This is the SG through the 25 watt Mesa head. It took a while to find the tone on this one. The amp has a "crunch" mode but it is much more saturated than I wanted. I wound up using the clean mode and just turning up the gain. Between the tone pots and the graphic EQ, there's a lot of options. But that can be a curse.

Full power setting, channel 1 clean mode, master volume dimed, gain at 12:00. Graphic EQ off. I've pushed the high, mid and presence knobs and dialed the bass back to 10:00.

Closed back Mesa 1x12 cab miked with an SM57 and an e906 blended. The part is double tracked and panned wide Amp reverb on both tracks. One has the Memory Boy delay in the loop.

SG_MB_58_906 doubled_guitar then mix.mp3 - Google Drive

So, that is the second shootout, crunch tone with the SG. It's the 'Meister in post #34, the DSL combo in #36, and the Boogie in this. For me, the Marshall kills it for pure tone. You can hear the extra wattage. But the Boogie works better in the mix. I hear a better separation between the guitar and that keyboard line, so that would decide it for me. Comments welcome.

 

[BroKen_H]

Even going in knowing that this was an SG/Marshall, with all the sweetness and distinctive flavors that I expected, I was not let down. That is a brilliant tone even for such a guaranteed success combination. I'm going to have to go back to the Tubemeister and the Trace Elliot and see how I would rate them 1-2-3. Now, if I remember correctly, the Tubemeister was done with a Tele...How does it sound with the SG?

Again, the Mesa has a nice tone (much sweeter this time), but the distinction between strings is not on par. It has a lower fizz (than I'm used to from my Vox) at attenuation (when you hit it hard) that I'm not fond of. It sounds excellent in the mix, though. I love "in the mix" because there's so much leeway. It's a "nice" amp, but I'd not put one on my wish list just yet.

I really don't have a lot of reference in my life. Guitarists I played with for the most part had Marshall or Carvin stacks (one had a Twin Reverb). That was all in the 70's and 80's. This Vox is the first decent amp I've ever owned (didn't start playing guitar until 10 years ago), and I'm having a lot of fun with all the sound variations I can get out of it, but I need to start documenting some things...you know, write down the settings, play with the guitar pots, use the different guitars, take notes, post clips (like you're doing.) Mostly I just sit down and fiddle until I like the sound and then push record...not very scientific. But then again, maybe my music isn't very scientific, either?

My guitar roster is a $400 Hamer superstrat with custom SDs (I think I paid an additional $200 for the pickups). A $1000 BCRich Mockingbird with the Floyd Rose and a $1200 LP Studio HP (paid a bit less). I bought the Mockingbird and the LP online after trying out similar models in store (actually ordered the LP at Sam Ash after trying out LPs there because they didn't have the model I wanted in stock.) The Mockingbird came from Amazon of all places. Black Friday special.

 

[BroKen_H]

As I read back through, Ray, I read (and I may be misinterpreting) that you like the Mesa and not the TE, so my ears may not be lining up with yours. I certainly liked the Mesa in the mix (as I sated) and that is, after all, what counts. Did I miss the post with the TM and SG? I only heard the TM with a tele...I still think the TE and TM would be the best combination (to my ears). That's my story and I'm S-Stickin' to it.

 

[Robus]

Thanks. Post #36 was the SG and Tubemeister. I meant to ask how you are getting along with that AC15 combo. Mine went back to the store because there was a rattle in the cab that made it impossible to use for recording. Really nice tone, though. I could see the AC15 head joining my arsenal at some point.

The mix is what counts. At the end of the day, I'm writing and recording songs, not tone clips. What works best in the song is often not what sounded best in isolation.

Seems like you have a pretty good stable of guitars but you need to add something with single coils.

 

[BroKen_H]

Yes, if money ever clears up an MIM strat is close to the top of the list...

???? #36 on my view is the Marshall...???? Ah, it's my #34. Found it. I'll give a listen

OOoooh, that thing is suh-weeet! $500...have to find one in a pawn or craigslist if I'm going to afford one, and it probably won't be this month. or next. Still paying off my wife's medical bills (under $10k now).

 

[andrushkiwt]

From the latest track I've posted, here are is the guitar work. There's nothing crazy about it, I just select either the MB Dual Rec, Orange Rockerverb, or Soldano amp heads and then use 2 cabinets (called Modern 1 and Modern 2), mic them with a 57 and FET two inches from the cone, and use the "booth" room, within Amplitube.

I then move one guitar far L and the other far R, double track them, and that's it. I'll let the raw sounds digest for a couple of days, I'll ask for feedback on them, and then I'll make EQ changes to them, which usually include 100HP, 7.5khzLP, and various cuts in the upper mids/presence area where it can get spikey and/or grating. I'd like to be able to leave more room up top for some nice air and sheen.

I'm not sure exactly which amp heads these are. If I had to guess, the "heavy guitars" are Mesa Boogie DR and the "lead guitars" are Soldano. Here they are raw, with EQ, and in the mix.

Raw Heavy guitars, without EQ:

Climb The Wall - Heavy Guitars by TRA | Free Listening on SoundCloud

Raw Lead Guitars, without EQ:

Climb The Wall - Lead Guitars by TRA | Free Listening on SoundCloud

Both Guitars, without EQ:

Climb The Wall - Guitar Bus by TRA | Free Listening on SoundCloud

Here is the EQ I applied to the guitar bus:



Heavy Guitars, with EQ:

Climb The Wall - Heavy Guitars With EQ by TRA | Free Listening on SoundCloud

Both Guitars, with EQ:

Climb The Wall - Both Guitars With EQ by TRA | Free Listening on SoundCloud

Both Raw, in the mix:

https://soundcloud.com/andrushkiwt/climb-the-wall-mix-section/s-CLSR6

Both EQ'd, in the mix:

https://soundcloud.com/andrushkiwt/climb-the-wall-mix-with-eq/s-uKE8c

If interested, the fully mixed song:

https://soundcloud.com/andrushkiwt/climb-the-wall

 

[Robus]

That's interesting man. The narrow EQ notches in midrange of the heavy guitars, that was reducing harshness?

The heavy rhythm guitars sound very smooth. The lead guitar is more abrasive, but is pretty low in the mix. Listening to the raw guitars in the mix, if anything it sounds harsher than the finished version--which is good. That tells me your master bus plugins aren't the trouble, if indeed there is trouble.

When I turn the volume up, it's definitely those pointy midrange frequencies that make me want to turn down again. Maybe my ears are hypersensitive to those frequencies. Is anybody else telling you the mix is harsh? Do you think it is? If so, I really doubt the guitar tones by themselves are the source. I think it's a buildup, the guitars and lead vocal all contributing. I'm not sure if there is any frequency overlap between those crash cymbals and the vocals and guitars, but for me they contribute to the overall feeling of aural assault.

BTW for all reading: I hope we are able to keep this thread going and gear it toward something different than the old thread. I'm interesting in hearing how people are creating tones that work in their song mixes. It would have been better to title this thread something else, but I guess we are stuck.