The New Tone Thread

[Greg_L]

Thanks yet again dude for the P-90/'bucker comparisons...You know, I figured I hear quite a difference with a different amp, but these sound pretty close to those JVM clips yesterday...I mean, yeah, I can tell there's something a little different about 'em, but dude those JVM clips yesterday were just smokin'...Don't get me wrong, these are good too, but those yesterday were epic...

I like the 'bucker for those little double-stops/single note lines, but the P-90 better for power chords....Guess the lead-ish stuff has more gain/sustain, & the P-90/chord stuff has more clarity...I'm getting a better idea of what I'd be getting into now, I mean I kinda knew but these clips give me a definite heads up on 'em....

See, I thought these were way better than the JVM clips. Different strokes. To me these have a more natural, blossoming kind of sound to them. But I think the humbucker/P-90 difference is more apparent in these clips. That was the goal. You can hear the clean clickety clack quack of the P-90 where the humbucker is thicker and smoother.

I kinda recognize it, but can't place it man...Let the cat outta the bag....

No, not yet. I wanna see if anyone can guess.

Checked the nice, P-90 with binding online today, & it's already gone dude....there's another one just like it, but it looks scratched/used quite a bit worse than the first one...That's ok though, there's tons of 'em out there, believe it or not, I almost bought one today, but had to resist, I can't dip into what I've funds I've got for a while or I won't be eatin' anymore pizza for a while...Goddammit it's hard to keep myself from pulling the trigger.....

Lol. Be patient. There are many out there.

Oh yeah, "what do you say" to me when I write a shitty song, record it shitty, program my drums shitty, mix it shitty & then ask your opinion dude????

I don't think your songs are shitty. It's not my style, but you do it well, so I can dig it. It's way better than sucky songs done poorly, like some people's stuff in here.

 

[minerman]

See, I thought these were way better than the JVM clips. Different strokes. To me these have a more natural, blossoming kind of sound to them. But I think the humbucker/P-90 difference is more apparent in these clips. That was the goal. You can hear the clean clickety clack quack of the P-90 where the humbucker is thicker and smoother.

Well, I don't think they're better, just a little different. You're right, different strokes...I could hear the quack in the P-90 clip though, it was very noticeable with the plexi...

I can see where having a couple P-90 rhythms panned out, with a humbucker lead would be enough tonal variation to really set 'em apart...Or, have one of each on one side, then have 'em swap leads out back/forth might be pretty cool too...

Do you play any slide Greg??? I bet a P-90 SG would be kick-ass for some slide....

No, not yet. I wanna see if anyone can guess.

I still can't place it dude....Guess I smoked too much dope back in the day sometimes I can't remember shit...

Lol. Be patient. There are many out there.

I know, I know....I've been wanting a lotta shit for a long time dude, & I'll finally have a chance to get it, but it's gonna be a little at a time....

I don't think your songs are shitty. It's not my style, but you do it well, so I can dig it. It's way better than sucky songs done poorly, like most people's stuff in here.

Ha!!!! I figured you'd get a bang outta me asking you that, like I said, I'd been watching that thread just for the very high probability that you'd reply, because I knew what would happen if you did.....


BTW, did you ask about the Chupa???

 

[Greg_L]

Well, I don't think they're better, just a little different. You're right, different strokes...I could hear the quack in the P-90 clip though, it was very noticeable with the plexi...

I can see where having a couple P-90 rhythms panned out, with a humbucker lead would be enough tonal variation to really set 'em apart...Or, have one of each on one side, then have 'em swap leads out back/forth might be pretty cool too...

In a full mix it's not gonna matter that much. The humbucker will naturally do molten leads better, but unless you're doing pure metal, a P-90 will be just as gnarly and crunchy as a humbucker. I bet most people couldn't tell them apart in a full mix. But when you want that more precise definition, the P-90 will be better most of the time without being as screechy and thin as a Strat/Tele single coil.

Do you play any slide Greg??? I bet a P-90 SG would be kick-ass for some slide....

Lol. Fuck no. I've never once considered playing any slide guitar. In 25 years of playing I've never, not one time, thought "I need some slide guitar". I wouldn't even know where to begin.

I still can't place it dude....Guess I smoked too much dope back in the day sometimes I can't remember shit...

Hint - It's a theme from a TV show.

BTW, did you ask about the Chupa???

Sort of. I started a little pressure on him about it. But get this...he bought this TC Nova thing to run in front of his amp. I nearly hit the floor. He says he wants to try it into a clean channel for "the hot rodded Marshall sound". I pointed at the Chupa and said, "dude, it's right fucking there! Play it!". He must have saw some lame ass guitar shmuck somewhere doing that and decided to try it himself, and I'm not happy about it. He's such a cool guy but this is a mistake in my opinion. He's getting tired of the thick mountain of gain he gets from his Diamond, and I don't blame him, but going digital into a clean channel for "the Marshall sound" is definitely not the remedy when he has your Chupa sitting there collecting dust.

 

[minerman]

In a full mix it's not gonna matter that much. The humbucker will naturally do molten leads better, but unless you're doing pure metal, a P-90 will be just as gnarly and crunchy as a humbucker. I bet most people couldn't tell them apart in a full mix. But when you want that more precise definition, the P-90 will be better most of the time without being as screechy and thin as a Strat/Tele single coil.

Right, I "get" it now dude. You know, my nephew (the preacher) has a P-90 LP, & he's always bragging on it. I've heard him play it, but never really thought about it, & really never gave a P-90 a fair chance. I'm pretty sure I'll get an SG either with P-90's in it, or buy one & install 'em myself, just depends on what's up when the time hits. It's still a few weeks away, so basically anything could happen, you never know, I might find a hell of a deal when the $$$ hits. Just have to play the waiting game for now, which I hate, but after the year I had last year, I think I can pretty much ride anything out...

Lol. Fuck no. I've never once considered playing any slide guitar. In 25 years of playing I've never, not one time, thought "I need some slide guitar". I wouldn't even know where to begin.

Just wondering man, I bet if you tried it, you'd like it. I don't use any funky tuning, just standard. Blues scale/box patterns with it dude, just simple shit, but it sounds great through the guitars & amps we both like....Give it a shot sometime dude, you never know....

Hint - It's a theme from a TV show.

I've got a fuckin' brainlock goin' on dude, I have no idea what the clip is...

Sort of. I started a little pressure on him about it. But get this...he bought this TC Nova thing to run in front of his amp. I nearly hit the floor. He says he wants to try it into a clean channel for "the hot rodded Marshall sound". I pointed at the Chupa and said, "dude, it's right fucking there! Play it!". He must have saw some lame ass guitar shmuck somewhere doing that and decided to try it himself, and I'm not happy about it. He's such a cool guy but this is a mistake in my opinion. He's getting tired of the thick mountain of gain he gets from his Diamond, and I don't blame him, but going digital into a clean channel for "the Marshall sound" is definitely not the remedy when he has your Chupa sitting there collecting dust.

Have you fired that amp up & played through it for him??? If he's after "the hot-rodded Marshall" sound, he's already got it, & then some....

So, here's what I've got "planned" so far for my gear buying spree:

Gibson SG:....I'm buying a fuckin' SG, & I'm about 90% sure on the P-90's....maybe 95%....

Bottom/straight cab:.... I've thought about getting a used or cheaper 4x12 & putting good speakers in it, but by the time I do that, I'd probably have as much in it as just buying one with good speakers to start with, so I'm still debating on this.

Another amp/Chupa:....I'd love to have that amp back, but if he's gonna hang onto to it, it's cool ya know. He paid what I was asking, & it's his. I just hate to see it not get used though man.I know a lot more about this shit than I did when I got that amp, so I pretty much know what I'm after this time around. Last year was a "well, let's try this & see" kinda thing with the Chupa, but it worked out to be what I was after, so I want something really similar to that amp...

Plus, there are a couple/few more things I'd like to have music-wise on top of all this....There gonna have to put more stents in me if I don't quit obsessing about all this shit.......

 

[Tadpui]

Okay minerdude, Tadpui, and anyone else that may care...here's another hot Angus Young humbucker vs P-90 clip. This one's a little more revealing through an amp that reacts to these kinds of things a little better.

So again, Gibson Angus Young signature SG vs Gibson SG Special with a P-90.

Marshall Plexi 1959SLP
Bass - 10
Mid - 4
Treb - 5
Presence - 4
High Input 1 only
Vol 1 - 4
Marshall 1960A 4x12 - Celestion Greenback
Shure SM57 on axis, 2" off grill, halfway to edge
No EQ or FX in DAW

SG Angus humbucker

SG Special P-90

See if you recognize the first little riff.
The second part is a Johnny Thunders song.

Damn, I know that first riff. Where the hell do I know it from? Oh gawd, it's Beavis & Butthead

With the Plexi, I think that I like the P90 better. It seems to fit the character of the amp better. Definitely lower output, but has great definition on the chords.

 

[Lt. Bob]

man I like that plexi ..... oh, and the P90

 

[minerman]

man I like that plexi ..... oh, and the P90

It does sound good, don't it Bob....

While you're on here, will a P-90 fit into a guitar routed for mini-humbuckers???

I know the dog-ear P-90's won't, but are the mini's & soapbars the same size???

 

[rayc]

Greg,
You rate Phil as a drummer? I was going to ask when listening to that vid but forgot to.
I stopped listening to new AC/DC after Bonn Scott died.
Oddly though, Downunder we considered them a pop rock band until Bonn died and they became R.O.C.K. with Balls Out Brian.
That live vid had a good sound for differentiating instruments - the guitars are really clear and different BUT the band sounds limp. The song sounds like a power ballad in that recording.
A couple of long term Australian Pop/Rock heroes died this week. Ross Hannaford from Daddy Cool and Jon English a bit of a balladeer.
Ross had a DEEP voice - & did a great version of 60 Minute Man.

 

[rayc]

Jon English - a Ten Pound Pom, (subsidised immigrant), lived in my town. He worked with a band called the Sebastian Hardy Blues band but went solo & the band became popular international Orchestral Prog Rockers as Sebastian Hardy & then Windchase. He was in the 1st Australian version of JC Superstar which my missus saw & she loved him from then. I like him as a local made good (poor migrant town etc as we were) - he did well with this cover amongst other things.
No patch on the authenticity of Lt Bob's friend though.

 

[Bubba po]

Sort of. I started a little pressure on him about it. But get this...he bought this TC Nova thing to run in front of his amp. I nearly hit the floor. He says he wants to try it into a clean channel for "the hot rodded Marshall sound". I pointed at the Chupa and said, "dude, it's right fucking there! Play it!". He must have saw some lame ass guitar shmuck somewhere doing that and decided to try it himself, and I'm not happy about it. He's such a cool guy but this is a mistake in my opinion. He's getting tired of the thick mountain of gain he gets from his Diamond, and I don't blame him, but going digital into a clean channel for "the Marshall sound" is definitely not the remedy when he has your Chupa sitting there collecting dust.

I hear what you're saying Greg, but perhaps he's using the Nova as you would a tubescreamer. You're right, the Nova is one of the cleanest digital pedals out there but it actually has a very good analogue crunch circuit in there - it's not an emulation.

By the way, my TC Nova shat itself after a month of use. There was a bang through the amp, then the lights were on but nobody was home. Sent it to the tech and was told that it was toast. All sorts of issues with it. I bought it s/h but that's still £160 down the Swanee.

 

[rayc]

UKP160?
Holy shrapnel Bubba man!
I own amps that were cheaper - tubes ones at that.
That's about Aus$8.oo a day.
Bummer.
Greg, I really liked the non humbucker sample.

 

[Bubba po]

UKP160?
Holy shrapnel Bubba man!
I own amps that were cheaper - tubes ones at that.
That's about Aus$8.oo a day.
Bummer.
Greg, I really liked the non humbucker sample.

LOL. They are an amazing Multi-FX. Studio quality everything. But this one is a nice gunmetal-grey doorstop. You win some, you lose some. It could be argued that I got the JVM at £300 under book. Still smarts, though.

All Greg's clips sound amazing. I have to say, I do like the JVM clips very much and they hold up well to the cranked plexi. In fact, if I'm being honest, I like the JVM clips slightly better. I can't state a preference between the two pickups though. They both sounded killer. I could only pick one based on what I wanted for a particular song or part of a song.

 

[Greg_L]

Have you fired that amp up & played through it for him??? If he's after "the hot-rodded Marshall" sound, he's already got it, & then some....

I know! I have played it in front of him. Besides the crazy volume discrepancies between modes, I think it's great. But me playing it won't convince him. He needs to play it more. He's a much better "rock" guitarist than I am. I mesmerize him with my rhythm speed and flying chord changes, but he's a better guitarist overall. He can utilize the hair in that amp better than I can.

Damn, I know that first riff. Where the hell do I know it from? Oh gawd, it's Beavis & Butthead

With the Plexi, I think that I like the P90 better. It seems to fit the character of the amp better. Definitely lower output, but has great definition on the chords.

Ha ha yup! We have a winner. Beavis and Butthead.

Yeah I LOVE the P-90 with my more classic style amps. The Plexis, the 2203/2204, they go real nice with the P-90. This lowly SG Special Gregburst has become a definite go-to guitar with that pickup swap.

man I like that plexi ..... oh, and the P90

Thanks Boob.

While you're on here, will a P-90 fit into a guitar routed for mini-humbuckers???

I know the dog-ear P-90's won't, but are the mini's & soapbars the same size???

Lol, yes, I told you already! A soapbar P-90 and a mini-hum will swap out no problem.

There are aftermarket P-90 sized humbuckers and humbucker sized P-90s. But with Gibson's own pickups, only the soapbar and mini-hum are interchangeable within the same body rout.

 

[Greg_L]

Greg,
You rate Phil as a drummer? I was going to ask when listening to that vid but forgot to.
I stopped listening to new AC/DC after Bonn Scott died.

Yeah, I love Phil Rudd as a drummer. And a murderer! Lol. Mr Rudd is a fantastic drummer. He's all killer, no filler. He doesn't do anything that is isn't essential to the song, and that's very respectable to me. He's the anti-Keith Moon, who I love as well. What you get with Phil Rudd is a non-stop rock-steady backbeat that never ever wavers from driving the train down the tracks. It seems simple enough, but it isn't. His meter is flawless. He brings a lot to their table. I think most drummers, even fancy drummers, appreciate what Phil Rudd does.

I hear what you're saying Greg, but perhaps he's using the Nova as you would a tubescreamer. You're right, the Nova is one of the cleanest digital pedals out there but it actually has a very good analogue crunch circuit in there - it's not an emulation.

He's talking about using it in front of a clean channel and using the Nova as his "tone". For certain songs anyway. I find that scary and won't believe that anything good can come from it until I hear it in person. I know they're great for their effects, in an effects loop, but he aint gonna use it like that. It's basically one big ass expensive distortion pedal the way he's talking about it.

By the way, my TC Nova shat itself after a month of use. There was a bang through the amp, then the lights were on but nobody was home. Sent it to the tech and was told that it was toast. All sorts of issues with it. I bought it s/h but that's still £160 down the Swanee.

Lol. Damn, I remember you told me you liked it. I guess I caught you using it in that very small window of it working.

 

[Greg_L]

Greg, I really liked the non humbucker sample.

Thanks Ray, me too.

All Greg's clips sound amazing. I have to say, I do like the JVM clips very much and they hold up well to the cranked plexi. In fact, if I'm being honest, I like the JVM clips slightly better. I can't state a preference between the two pickups though. They both sounded killer. I could only pick one based on what I wanted for a particular song or part of a song.

The JVM records really really well. I have no problem with the JVM in any way. It's actually on more of my most recent recordings than the others. My new album that's gonna come out some time this year is probably 75% JVM. The thing that keeps it at home when it's gig time...well there are a few things.
1) I think it's ugly. Too many knobs! This is shallow and stupid, but that's me. I'm shallow and stupid and proud of it.

2) It's not as dynamic as my other amps. It's extremely versatile for sure, but not as dynamic. It's more compressed. It doesn't react to picking change-ups or guitar volume rolling as well as the more classic circuits do. I know that sounds silly coming from a ham-fisted punk rock retard guitarist like me, but it matters. I notice it. With my Plexis or 800 I can go from raging fury to sparkly clean with a twist of the guitar's vol knob. The JVM doesn't do that quite as well. I gotta tap-dance on the footswitch to make that happen.

3) For me, it's versatility is mostly unnecessary and an option-overload. I love all the stuff it can do, but when it's time to play live, I just wanna plug in and rock out. I don't wanna think about changing channels and second master volumes and all that shit. I know I don't have to use any of that stuff, but it's there in the back of my brain. "Hey Greg, try this, try this, try this, switch to this...". I don't want that. I sometimes leave the footswitch at home on purpose! I don't want to be tempted.

 

[Bubba po]

There certainly isn't a lot in it between the two tones for me. I understand the organic/responsive thing totally. Perhaps I've got used to a slightly compressed sound. What I DO know is that the JVM tone pisses all over the TSL. The last couple of gigs when I've been hammering it on the Orange Crunch I've found myself going "YES!!" under my breath and grinning like an idiot. It sounds like an amp ought to sound. The switching is definitely harder to do cleanly, though.

When I first joined this group I had two settings for live - crunch and lead - and they worked for just about everything. It was quite a release for me, having had to be a tweaker for so long, so I get the simplicity thing too. I just can't seem to leave things alone for long, though. I convince myself that this song will sound better with this tone and look for ways to achieve it. I'm an inveterate tinkerer and a born tap-dancer it seems!

 

[Greg_L]

That's the thing. The JVM never sounds bad, so you could tweak it endlessly. Even at it's most smoldering dork metal level of gain it sounds good. And that's really who the amp is for - modern hard rock/metal guys. Like all those mallcore screamo fingerless gloves pseudo-metal bands....they'd have a field day with the JVM. What they consider clean is our dirtiest sounds.

 

[Bubba po]

That's the thing. The JVM never sounds bad, so you could tweak it endlessly. Even at it's most smoldering dork metal level of gain it sounds good. And that's really who the amp is for - modern hard rock/metal guys. Like all those mallcore screamo fingerless gloves pseudo-metal bands....they'd have a field day with the JVM. What they consider clean is our dirtiest sounds.

I think there's a strong negative correlation between age and experience and amount of gain used. If one were to plot the data from thousands of guitarists I think there would be an obvious downward curve/ gradient, from the maximum gain used at age 15 up to my age and beyond.

Obviously, dork metal gain-heads who never grew up are outliers on this graph so can be ignored as a statistical error.

 

[Greg_L]

I think there's a strong negative correlation between age and experience and amount of gain used. If one were to plot the data from thousands of guitarists I think there would be an obvious downward curve/ gradient, from the maximum gain used at age 15 up to my age and beyond.

Obviously, dork metal gain-heads who never grew up are outliers on this graph so can be ignored as a statistical error.

Lol. I think you might be right. It's weird to me how the guitar players that want to be the heaviest, brootalest, flashiest shred virtuosos are also often the same guys that sound like shit and/or you can't hear because they're drowning in a sea of mushy gain and distortion. I saw this video of Zakk Wylde jamming with Joe Bonamassa. Full disclosure, I'm not fan of either of these guys so I'm not pitting one against the other, but Bonamassa DESTROYED Zakk Wylde as they traded licks. Mr Wylde sounded like a buzzy fizzy empty tin can with no clarity or definition. He was all speed and mush. It was ghastly. Bonermaster didn't shred like Wylde, but he was much more articulate. You could hear every note he played, even at his own version of high speed. The difference? Gain. Zakk Wylde was so gained up it sounded like white noise. Bonermaster was using much less gain and his tone was significantly better. I hear this on a smaller scale with local hard rock/metal bands all the time. These local honks wheel out their Triple Rectifiers and Bugeras and 5150s with ten pedals in front and you can't hear them regardless of volume. There's no punch. It's just mush. My distaste for high gain is subjective but it's also practical. No one's ever told me "Greg we couldn't hear you!".

 

[miroslav]

Bonermaster didn't shred like Wylde, but he was much more articulate. You could hear every note he played, even at his own version of high speed. The difference? Gain. Zakk Wylde was so gained up it sounded like white noise. Bonermaster was using much less gain and his tone was significantly better.

He also tends to single-note pick most of his notes...as opposed to multi-picking the notes and lots of left hand actions.
Most of the guys who shred with high gain do it so they can do lots of hammer-ons and pull-offs real easy, along with picking notes too, as they would never be able to just pick through at those speeds. Bonamassa does mostly right hand picking, which will slow you down some, but gives you that articulate clarity...though he can pick damn fast.

I'm not even in the same neighborhood as Bonamassa...but my playing has always been about single-note picking 99% of the time.
I do the occasional hammer-ons and pull-offs...but mostly I'm always picking the notes...and it does limit how fast you can go, which was never much of a concern for me, anyway. I never chased after the shred style.


Do you mean this showdown: