Trapped (Eternity) - mix feedback please? alternative-ish rock

[andrushkiwt]

hey everyone, please leave some feedback for this mix. I had a difficult time with several things: vocal levels, splashy cymbals, and two or three transients that were messing up my ability to limit it where i usually like to. I might have to reexamine my gain staging because I'm just not able to reach the levels you guys are in the mastering sessions. I'm bouncing out of the mix at about -5db. but guitars are usually around -30something. my MBC during mastering adds some db since i up the gain on each slightly, and then the limiter is usually set to -0.03 threshold with +4-5 on input. I use k-14 meter and my averages are around -14 (but i think i should be closer to -9, from what i read). anyways, this might be sightly quieter than stuff you're used to. Those transients i mentioned don't push the db's much at all, but they still come out of nowhere and mess up the mastering process.

of course, thoughts about anything else are always welcome. i took some advice and upped the treble on the amp sim. thanks for that piece of info last time, i think it gave the guitars better balance.

edit: forgot to mention that i would appreciate any feedback on the reverb. I went with a "flat plate" for the first time, instead of my usual "medium studio". pre-delay and wet/dry are still the same, however.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

What limiter are you using? General purpose limiters suck for mastering.

In the advanced posting screen there's a Soundcloud button that make your link a player so we don't have to go to the Soundcloud site to play your song. And there's something about links to Soundcloud songs that doesn't work on my older computer, so I have to trim the link back to your main page and find the song. It's a pain.

Listening now...

 

[easlern]

Getting closer and closer to that studio sound man. Everything just sounds right to me.

 

[andrushkiwt]

What limiter are you using? General purpose limiters suck for mastering.

In the advanced posting screen there's a Soundcloud button that make your link a player so we don't have to go to the Soundcloud site to play your song. And there's something about links to Soundcloud songs that doesn't work on my older computer, so I have to trim the link back to your main page and find the song. It's a pain.

Listening now...

did that work? i can't tell...i don't have the right plug-ins on my work computer. can't get them either since that's IT's job.

my limiter is the stock Studio One Pro limiter. i can't get it past 4-5 db input without clipping. i resort to doing a mix of master fader bump plus the 4db on the limiter (but we talked about that in the mastering thread last week).

---------- Update ----------

Getting closer and closer to that studio sound man. Everything just sounds right to me.

thanks easlern, i'm not too happy with the splash though. and i wish i could get that volume up. i'll need to read up on some more mastering stuff. thanks for the comment and listen dude

 

[bouldersoundguy]

First things first: vocal needs more up top, in two adjacent ranges. It really needs some "air", a high shelf boost from about 5k. Then it needs some definition around 3k. It may be that one shelf starting around 2k will do it. At that point you may have a sibilance problem so a de-esser may be needed.

Maybe try a wide 2-3 octave, cut down around 200Hz on the cymbals. Or a low shelf cut with a really gentle slope rolling off around 500Hz.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

did that work? i can't tell...i don't have the right plug-ins on my work computer. can't get them either since that's IT's job.

Yep, that's why I posted that first, so I could play your song right here on HR.

 

[jjinvegas]

This is a case of the song being far better than the recording, which is a very good thing, actually. Because you can learn how to record better, learning how to write better is far harder, IMHO. I am curious about the order in which you do things, one thing that can really smooth out productions is to start with some kind of drum programming, where you establish the various kick/snare feels. Build the guitar and bass and such around that, then record the drums so that they are bound to the arrangement. Tempo is huge, but often overlooked, I feel this song feels rushed and kind of tripping over itself because the drums seem to want to call attention to themselves rather than just support the song. If you can get that relentless steady feel going, mixes get way easier because you are not trying to calm things down dynamically, or smooth them out. Instead, the dynamic spikes and transients serve to make listening more interesting....

 

[andrushkiwt]

First things first: vocal needs more up top, in two adjacent ranges. It really needs some "air", a high shelf boost from about 5k. Then it needs some definition around 3k. It may be that one shelf starting around 2k will do it. At that point you may have a sibilance problem so a de-esser may be needed.

Maybe try a wide 2-3 octave, cut down around 200Hz on the cymbals. Or a low shelf cut with a really gentle slope rolling off around 500Hz.

yeah, i actually have a low mid cut on the cymbals somewhere around there, and they're high-passed around 170hz. i could cut it some more.

the vocals need air or the mix needs air? this mix, i did not add air, but I usually do. i thought the guitars had more top end than usual and then there was the cymbal issue plus a bit of essing, so i didn't touch the highs overall. i could have went back and fixed those problems in the mix, but i wanted to move on from this track - i wrote and recorded it in july and was ready to work on something else.

 

[andrushkiwt]

This is a case of the song being far better than the recording, which is a very good thing, actually. Because you can learn how to record better, learning how to write better is far harder, IMHO. I am curious about the order in which you do things, one thing that can really smooth out productions is to start with some kind of drum programming, where you establish the various kick/snare feels. Build the guitar and bass and such around that, then record the drums so that they are bound to the arrangement. Tempo is huge, but often overlooked, I feel this song feels rushed and kind of tripping over itself because the drums seem to want to call attention to themselves rather than just support the song. If you can get that relentless steady feel going, mixes get way easier because you are not trying to calm things down dynamically, or smooth them out. Instead, the dynamic spikes and transients serve to make listening more interesting....

thanks man. i write acoustically and then sit down at my laptop to get started with playing over a programmed beat. the drums are Superior Drummer 2. after i get some scratch guitar and bass tracks, i begin to write out the final drum parts, but I mix my own writings with the programmed ones and will sometimes edit the prgrammed drums to fit the track better. then i record vocals last since lyrics are always closer to the end anyways. it gets fatiguing doing all the parts alone without feedback until its up here. and i'm limited with my single amp sim.

but yeah, i do just that...i start with simple patterns and then progress them as the guitars and bass are recorded.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

the vocals need air or the mix needs air?

The vocals. Maybe more stuff but what I hear is that the vocal level is close to right (a little low at the beginning) but the clarity isn't there.

 

[jjinvegas]

I have some recommendations that I would prefer not to share publicly, PM me if you are curious......JJ

 

[Robus]

Sounds promising. Not as finished as what you usually post. Voice is excellent as always. I don't know what to tell you about the mix and master--somebody who knows more than me might help you sort that out. I can hear your compressors pumping, breathing, wheezing, and doing everything else imaginable. I'd turn them all off and start over again. I like the song, but it seemed like there were places where you hadn't quite sorted out the melody. The drums, apart from fading in and out, could use some attention, composition wise. That thrash-style rapid fire kick drum as you go into the chorus really messed with the groove. I thought at first the timing was off, but I think it's a matter of that kick doing crazy stuff instead of emphasizing the downbeat. Just when you should be launching into a heavy chorus rhythm, that madman on drums goes off on a tangent and forgets to serve the song. Give the guy a chill pill! Anyway, those are my thoughts.

 

[andrushkiwt]

haha, well i wrote it and put it together in July then tossed it aside because I didn't care for it. After Burn to Light, which I thought was my best mix to date, I thought I'd go back and re-mix it with some of the tricks or whatever I've learned in the 4 months since. Not too many compressors going actually - probably the same application as the last couple songs. The MBC is only at about 1.3:1 on most bands with only 0.3 gain or so on each. No general compressor otherwise. Kick comp is my usual 4:1, snare 3.7:1, and o'h's 2.7:1. I'd somewhat agree that the drums are busy, but it's more in the style of Breaking Benjamin rather than Kid Rock or something where the drums are just kind of there in the background - listen to a Breaking Benjamin tune closely, all the fills and kick hits. The chorus drum pattern here was from the Metal Machine pack and I modified the hits to make it fit better. If you don't think it fits, you don't think it fits - but if I played this live, I'd recommend the drummer play as close to it as possible, though i'd be open to taking out the part underneath "...the walls inside". I'd also go for getting off of the splash more frequently and switching to another cymbal more often. i just got lazy in writing the drums. i have a million ideas for songs and i get sick of them quickly.