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There should be two separate drum forums: One for real, acoustic drums, and one for the programmers, electric kits, and drum machines.
There should be two separate drum forums: One for real, acoustic drums, and one for the programmers, electric kits, and drum machines.
G
Greg_L
Banned
The real drum forum would have about 3 active members and 0 threads per year. That's the current state of home "recording".
IMO, YMMV.
IMO, YMMV.
Resurrect
New member
Now that I think about it... Yep. That's about right. 
R
RFR
Well-known member
That's sad. Very sad.
Real drums are where it's at.
Real drums are where it's at.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Well...one can argue that they ARE real drums. 
The problem isn't the drums samples. They are all quality drum kits, played by top sessions players and recorded in top studios.
Most of the Slate/SD/AD drums samples sound better than what you'll hear on 80% of home rec drum recordings, because few home rec guys have a decent drum kit, in a decent space, played by a decent drummer, and recorded well.
And I think this is also what drives home rec people toward using the drum samples....they know they can't cover the above.
The real problem with making the drums sound real...is the programming.
Often people that use samples do a shitty job of programming if they are not use to it or willing to spend more than 15 minutes on it...or they just grab the canned grooves and loop them 30 times, and that's it.
To make it "real", you have to pay close attention to the smaller drum playing details that a drummer would naturally do, and also make sure the grooves makes sense...IOW, that they are playable by a normal drummer and not someone who would need 3 arms.
The problem isn't the drums samples. They are all quality drum kits, played by top sessions players and recorded in top studios.
Most of the Slate/SD/AD drums samples sound better than what you'll hear on 80% of home rec drum recordings, because few home rec guys have a decent drum kit, in a decent space, played by a decent drummer, and recorded well.
And I think this is also what drives home rec people toward using the drum samples....they know they can't cover the above.
The real problem with making the drums sound real...is the programming.
Often people that use samples do a shitty job of programming if they are not use to it or willing to spend more than 15 minutes on it...or they just grab the canned grooves and loop them 30 times, and that's it.
To make it "real", you have to pay close attention to the smaller drum playing details that a drummer would naturally do, and also make sure the grooves makes sense...IOW, that they are playable by a normal drummer and not someone who would need 3 arms.
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Robus
Well-known member
My favorite example of that is when you have a hat pattern that continues unchanged right on top of a complex snare and tom fill.
fat_fleet
Swollen Member
Well...one can argue that they ARE real drums.
The problem isn't the drums samples. They are all quality drum kits, played by top sessions players and recorded in top studios.
Most of the Slate/SD/AD drums samples sound better than what you'll hear on 80% of home rec drum recordings, because few home rec guys have a decent drum kit, in a decent space, played by a decent drummer, and recorded well.
And I think this is also what drives home rec people toward using the drum samples....they know they can't cover the above.
I'm not sure I agree. I think the biggest obstacles against "home recordists" (guitarists with DAW software) using real drums are- (#1) Lack of playing ability coupled with unwillingness to invest the time and money into it. Drums are pretty impractical to just get into out of the blue.. because you're investing hundreds of dollars before you can even get a usable sound out of them, and at least a thousand playing hours before muscle memory kicks in and what you're playing sounds passable. Plus the noise, the space requirements.. And the second reason (#2) is the changing of the role of drums in popular music to more of a supportive, beatkeeping role, rather than an instrument with it's own personality that has a distinct voice in the arrangement, and so it's also becoming less attractive to the new kid just getting into music... all that money, practice, time invested for what? To sit in the corner and tap out a nice 4/4 for some pimply guitar or songwriting "virtuoso" to noodle over?
But there's this notion in places like this is that the stars have to align- great kit, great room, awesome drummer, perfect mic placement- to get a decent drum take and that's just not true. IMO it's just an excuse for #1 above. Totally cool with me, I just wish people were more honest about their reasons, rather than perpetuating the mentality that actually learning and playing any instrument is futile and outdated.
Resurrect
New member
I find the new lack of prominence in drums REALLY sad. Few things can make me detest a song faster than a really horrible or synthy drum sound. i.e. ALL of pop. MOST of country. I'm a drummer, and though I play guitar more often now, drums will always be my first love. So it kinda offends me personally when artists think drums are more of a place holder or metronome rather than a real instrument. lol. 
I agree in part with both miroslav and fat_fleet. I believe that drum samples, and drum synths and whatever other crap you use (I'm no pro at digital sounds, least of all drums, so I'm not up on the terminology for this kinda stuff.) I believe they all have their place in music. Some of the artists I listen to use them well and appropriately, even, but nothing can replace a real kit.
I agree in part with both miroslav and fat_fleet. I believe that drum samples, and drum synths and whatever other crap you use (I'm no pro at digital sounds, least of all drums, so I'm not up on the terminology for this kinda stuff.) I believe they all have their place in music. Some of the artists I listen to use them well and appropriately, even, but nothing can replace a real kit.
Tadpui
Well-known member
For a guy like me that isn't very good at playing drums, and doesn't have nearly the space that a trap kit and its attendant mics/stands would require, sampled drums are a necessity. It's better than using canned beats from some website or using a recording of me beating a stick against the floor or something
With a compact e-kit and a decent sample library, I can actually put together something that sounds like a human playing, yet make up for my shortcomings in both talent and space by recording in MIDI, making needed corrections, and end up with something remotely convincing as rock drums.
I've spent over half of my life playing guitar, and I'd feel resentment towards a program that hammered out simulated guitar licks at the click of a mouse. But since I'm not much of a drummer, I don't feel any shame at all in using drum sample libraries and MIDI in my rhythm section. Home recordists wear a lot of hats...we can't be good at wearing them all!
With a compact e-kit and a decent sample library, I can actually put together something that sounds like a human playing, yet make up for my shortcomings in both talent and space by recording in MIDI, making needed corrections, and end up with something remotely convincing as rock drums.
I've spent over half of my life playing guitar, and I'd feel resentment towards a program that hammered out simulated guitar licks at the click of a mouse. But since I'm not much of a drummer, I don't feel any shame at all in using drum sample libraries and MIDI in my rhythm section. Home recordists wear a lot of hats...we can't be good at wearing them all!
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Well...I think we're both saying the same thing.
I said that many home-rec guys don't have the decent drum kit or the space...etc.
AFA learning to playing well....while that may be desirable, and some people want to go that route....I don't see that it's a problem if you don't want to also learn to play drums.
I've got a huge drum kit in my studio with an assortment of toms and cymbals and 6-7 snares to pick from...but I don't play it, I have a drummer who comes over to play it.
So not knowing how to play a kit is IMO less of an impediment than not having the kit or the space...etc.
I think if you have the kit and the space and the mics and you know how to record a kit...it's not that hard to entice a drummer to just show up and play it for you...as opposed to making him drag his kit over and setting it up, etc.
That said...not knowing how to play (though I actually have played a little back in the day) doesn't mean you can't understand what makes a good drum groove.
I always know what kind of beat I want, where fills need to go and how involved they need to be...the accents and the crashes...etc....so when I do program drums using Superior Drummer rather then record my drummer buddy...I can work very convincing drum grooves. I've played some grooves back for my drummer...and the first time he heard them, he got that puzzled look on his face because he thought I brought someone else in to play drums for me.
I'm not saying I can program better than a better drummer can play...but I certainly can program grooves that sound as real as any drummer....plus, I'm doing Rock/Pop/Blues shit, which doesn't require Neil Pert style grooves. It's mostly about the Kick/Snare/Hat...with some tasty fills and accents to top it off. Variety and randomness in the beats/accents is one of the main ingredients to making it "real" sounding.
Some people will obsess for hours over which Snare sample to use...then they program some stupid rat-tat-tat-tat with no playing feel, and some impossible Hat or Tom playing on top of the Snare. So no matter how great the Snare sample...the groove still sounds unreal.
I love recording the studio kit with a drummer playing...and if he grasps the vibe of the song, his playing will have that added spontaneous emotion that is harder to program with samples...but there's also a lot of good points to being able to work out a groove at my leisure, and I can experiment and try out different stuff ...which isn't always possible with a drummer, since there is always a time constraint. Also...I have the song in my head...the drummer doesn't, he's only following my scratch track and my instructions.
Now...if you're in a band and/or recording a band...well then that's a different story. Then everyone is going to put in the time and effort (hopefully), and everyone will be familiar with the song and they will most likely already have worked out what they want to do and how it should sound, etc....so that makes things a bit easier.
Anyway....I use both as needed. I love recording the studio kit live and getting that instant gratification, and I also enjoy working out a groove in Superior Drummer and experimenting with a variety of samples and beats.
JimmyS1969
MOODerator
There should be two separate drum forums: One for real, acoustic drums, and one for the programmers, electric kits, and drum machines.
I agree with this actually. They are two completely different topics in theory.
Though the two can relate to each other at times when the ideal environment is not available, or the drums just sound like shit. Sometimes samples are the best way to 'enhance' the sound when there is an issue while recording. Whether a sample of the actual drum being recorded or a sample from another kit. It really depends on the situation and desired results. Genre is a big concern here...
I record others in my home as well as myself. In my case I am lucky enough to be able to get quite good drums recordings in a well treated room with fairly decent mics and recording gear. There are however still those guys that show up with drums that sound like shit or they just can't play consistently. That is another story... When a great drummer who has his shit together comes in, it is just perfect without any need for anything.
I don't have an issue with breaking up the drum forum into two separate forums. I will suggest it.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
It matters not to me, I can find the forums that matter...but since people already agree that a "real" drum forum will likely get maybe 3 guys posting in it once a month...not sure why the sampled drum discussions are getting in the way so that there needs to be a division? At the root of it...it's all still about getting good sounding drum tracks, so the overlap has some relevance.
I mean...we talk about guitar sims/pods in the Guitar forum...along with amps and cabs.
G
Greg_L
Banned
Separate the sim people from real amps and cabs too while you're at it.
IMO, YMMV, etc.
IMO, YMMV, etc.
Resurrect
New member
For a guy like me that isn't very good at playing drums, and doesn't have nearly the space that a trap kit and its attendant mics/stands would require, sampled drums are a necessity. It's better than using canned beats from some website or using a recording of me beating a stick against the floor or something
With a compact e-kit and a decent sample library, I can actually put together something that sounds like a human playing, yet make up for my shortcomings in both talent and space by recording in MIDI, making needed corrections, and end up with something remotely convincing as rock drums.
I've spent over half of my life playing guitar, and I'd feel resentment towards a program that hammered out simulated guitar licks at the click of a mouse. But since I'm not much of a drummer, I don't feel any shame at all in using drum sample libraries and MIDI in my rhythm section. Home recordists wear a lot of hats...we can't be good at wearing them all!
Yeah, see? Samples and such have their place. A good example. But it seems to me that they are completely, overwhelmingly monopolizing the field.
Steenamaroo
...
There should be two separate drum forums: One for real, acoustic drums, and one for the programmers, electric kits, and drum machines.
Try posting this in the feedback forum. It's not a bad idea.
fat_fleet
Swollen Member
Well kind of, but you chalk it up to resources, I chalk it up to interest. If you have the interest, you'll find a way to get the stuff. You presumably did it with guitar. And you yourself have a kit, a nice room, and plenty of mics.. you don't have those things you listed as holding home rec'ers back holding you back, yet you still use drum software.. I'd assume the one ingredient you lack is the interest to learn.
You know this talk comes up a lot, and in it everyone's their own lobbyist. If you don't play drums- "Thank god for drum software", if you play them- "It's not the same man." It's always a little embarrassing to take part in, like homeless guys fighting over a Chicken McNugget, but I'd also hate to see potential new drummers discouraged because the entry requirements are too daunting, when in fact it's not much different and requires about as much trial and error as any other instrument.
AFA learning to playing well....while that may be desirable, and some people want to go that route....I don't see that it's a problem if you don't want to also learn to play drums.
I've got a huge drum kit in my studio with an assortment of toms and cymbals and 6-7 snares to pick from...but I don't play it, I have a drummer who comes over to play it.
So not knowing how to play a kit is IMO less of an impediment than not having the kit or the space...etc.
Wait, so your drummer doesn't know how to play?
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RFR
Well-known member
I think he's saying HE, not the drummer, is the one who doesn't know how to play well. Miro is just being a responsible studio owner who has a kit set up.
On drums, here is my view. If you have the space, the mics and the ability to make some noise, go with drums
. Regarding home recording, there is no reason why someone HAS to do everything by themselves. There is no hard and fast rule that a home studio is always a solo artist doing everything.
I feel that can actually hinder the music. There is nothing like the energy and input from different musicians. There is no shame in not being able to do everything by yourself either.
Music for the most part has been a group activity......That's a GOOD thing.
On drums, here is my view. If you have the space, the mics and the ability to make some noise, go with drums
. Regarding home recording, there is no reason why someone HAS to do everything by themselves. There is no hard and fast rule that a home studio is always a solo artist doing everything.
I feel that can actually hinder the music. There is nothing like the energy and input from different musicians. There is no shame in not being able to do everything by yourself either.
Music for the most part has been a group activity......That's a GOOD thing.
Resurrect
New member
I think he's saying HE, not the drummer, is the one who doesn't know how to play well. Miro is just being a responsible studio owner who has a kit set up.
On drums, here is my view. If you have the space, the mics and the ability to make some noise, go with drums
. Regarding home recording, there is no reason why someone HAS to do everything by themselves. There is no hard and fast rule that a home studio is always a solo artist doing everything.
I feel that can actually hinder the music. There is nothing like the energy and input from different musicians. There is no shame in not being able to do everything by yourself either.
Music for the most part has been a group activity......That's a GOOD thing.
Oh, that I could get some more musicians to work with me! I HATE doing everything alone.
J
Jake_JW
New member
Wouldnt threads about sampled and/or triggered drums be just as at home in the VST/Simulators/Sample Packs/Plugins section? And those about Drum Programming in the MIDI Mania section?
Can't see how making another sub-forum is going to solve the 'problem' since they all overlap so much.
Can't see how making another sub-forum is going to solve the 'problem' since they all overlap so much.
DM60
Well-known member
I always assumed the drum section was for drums (real deal), VSTi drums go into MIDI, same with Sims. Maybe just a sticky to direct the posts.