Writing bad songs

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Well doo doo, now I am tired. Good night. Hopefully I'll dream up some killer new songs and hopefully everyone on the planet will just love them to death!
 
Greg,

Inferred was the wrong word, implied is what I meant. Apologies.

But to your answer, for "my own amusement". That's great. I already stated my opinion on writing songs for yourself, and I never, ever said it was the wrong thing, or would it be a bad song. But if that's why you write the songs you write, how does that qualify you to comment on what's a good or bad song, or that there's no such thing as a good or bad song? Are you saying that we should all just write songs for our own amusement and if someone else gets it, then, bonus!?

I've been on this site for years. I don't post much because I like hearing other people's opinions more than I need to see my own in type. Including yours, Greg. That post about,"write/ play more interesting parts" was pretty concise and hilarious. That was money. And simple.

However, your ideas about a song being good just because the author/ you, think it's good/ amusing to yourself, then taking it further to the song's aren't good or bad concept, just don't make sense. If you really don't care if your songs connect with other people, then why do you post them? I'm not sure what you are getting out of this debate. I wasn't telling you to get out of this thread earlier because I thought you weren't a good debater, I was just saying, if your opinion is set in stone, then what's the point? You've made it clear that you don't care what people think of your opinion, or your songs. Please. Enlighten me.
 
Zane1Tsu said:
But to your answer, for "my own amusement". That's great. I already stated my opinion on writing songs for yourself, and I never, ever said it was the wrong thing, or would it be a bad song. But if that's why you write the songs you write, how does that qualify you to comment on what's a good or bad song, or that there's no such thing as a good or bad song?
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It qualifies me because I have ears and a mind. I can listen to a song, any song, and think to myself "that's a good/bad song". Does that mean my opinion is definitive for all of mankind? Hell no. It only applies to me. So if I hear a song that I like, and you hear the same song and hate it, who is right? And why do I have to care if you or someone else likes/dislikes my song? And why does me caring/not caring mean that I can't have an opinion on the subject? It's surprising to me that you, someone who claims to want "intelligent debate", would even go there. You want to dismiss my opinions because you don't agree with them or understand them. How am I somehow not qualified, and/or you or anyone else more qualified? The fatal flaw in all of this, regardless of which side one takes, is that there simply is no finish line. There's no scoring system. The only generally accepted measure of a "good song" is sales and chart positions, and I think that any reasonable, well-adjusted, full-functioning human that can walk and chew gum at the same time should know that mass popularity does not automatically equal "good".

Are you saying that we should all just write songs for our own amusement and if someone else gets it, then, bonus!?
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Yes, exactly. I've said that very thing about umpteen trillion times.....applied to myself. But I sure wouldn't mind if more people adopted that philosophy. I think music would be better. I just write the songs I want to write the way I want to write them. If someone likes it, great, if not that's fine too. I'm totally fine either way, but pleasing others with my songwriting is never my goal. I aim to only please myself. Take a look around, you ever see a Greg thread asking for songwriting help or opinions? No. But that's just for me. I don't hold anyone else to my own self-imposed standards. I understand that most people really do want others to genuinely like their music, and I usually don't think any less of them for it. I'm personally not like that though. I think I might be missing that link of DNA.....and maybe several others.

I've been on this site for years. I don't post much because I like hearing other people's opinions more than I need to see my own in type. Including yours, Greg. That post about,"write/ play more interesting parts" was pretty concise and hilarious. That was money. And simple.
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That guy was a fucking cry-baby.

However, your ideas about a song being good just because the author/ you, think it's good/ amusing to yourself, then taking it further to the song's aren't good or bad concept, just don't make sense. If you really don't care if your songs connect with other people, then why do you post them?
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I post my songs because this is a recording site and I'm interested in the process of music production. I've posted probably over 100 covers and originals. I do want opinions and feedback on my mixes. But if you look through my history, you'll probably see pretty quickly that I pretty much never ask for songwriting opinions. People still offer songwriting opinions, and I usually politely thank them and remind them that I'm not interested in songwriting feedback. Sometimes I'll think about it if it's from someone I respect, but I pretty much always stand pat with what I've done.

I'm not sure what you are getting out of this debate. I wasn't telling you to get out of this thread earlier because I thought you weren't a good debater, I was just saying, if your opinion is set in stone, then what's the point? You've made it clear that you don't care what people think of your opinion, or your songs. Please. Enlighten me.
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What's the point indeed. I'm a natural-born contrarian. I know my views on most things are not the norm, and someone has to speak up and offer a viewpoint from the other side of the fence. I don't say what I say to engage debate. I say what I say because I feel it needs to be said. It needs to be there as a reminder when the thought police comes in and starts throwing around the standard tired cliches. You don't have to like it or agree with it, but it's not any less relevant than generic idealism.

Look at how much you got me to type. You should feel pretty lucky. :D
 
As far as I am concerned, when someone comes onto the site and asks "What is your opinion/thoughts/whatever" of this song? Door is open. On the mixing clinic, for example, when people critique, they stick with the mix. Some may say, this isn't my style or what not, but 99% they stick to the objective of listening to the mix.

I won't ask anyone what they think of my song to be honest, I really only want to hear, "great song". But if it is not honest, then what is the point? Hardcore or not, if you can't handle the answer, don't ask the question. Hence, I don't ask.

For the record, an opinion can never be wrong. One can only disagree with it. My opinion is always right as it is my opinion. People may disagree, I may have the facts wrong, but I own the opinion, it is mine, I am the source and then it is a correct statement. My opinion ... The qualifier here is "My", and after I utter the words, "my opinion", then becomes a matter of fact, it is mine. You can't say it is wrong as you are saying, "no this isn't your opinion" when you say it is wrong. In order for that to work, you would have to be some sort of Jedi Master. JM -"No this isn't your opinion", weak minded person, "No, this isn't my opinion, move along".

Summary: Don't ask for someone's opinion if you can't handle the response. I can't, so I don't. :D
 
Greg_L said:
A safe comment to make a vague over-generalized point. Yawn. By that logic every song is good because someone somewhere will inevitably like any song.
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This was about my initial opinion.
 
Greg_L said:
that's why your self-described simple and concise point is just as irrelevant as anyone else's more abstract point. I'm not saying you're right or wrong. I'm saying that making the most basic and generalized point because it's simple and safe doesn't make you any more right than someone who has a convoluted point.

I think any song is good if the author of the song thinks it's good.
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So first I'm making and a generalized point then you follow up with that generalized point.

I then replied earlier with, with that logic, every song is good because the author will inevitably like his own song. That's when you came back with...
 
Greg_L said:
Because I gotta be honest, debating this with some nobody on the internet knowing that you will never change my mind or make me think differently is not that interesting for me. It was for a little while, but.....What do I get out of this? Maybe I'll come back to it later. You don't know me or anything about me, so who are you to question me? You follow the cliche logic of mass acceptance and I think that's stupid and insecure. If you think you have the formula for what makes a good song or bad song, then knock yourself out. I don't care.
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This hear me while I hear nothing else attitude is what I have a problem with. If that works for your songwriting, then that's great. I never said your intentions of why you write songs is a bad thing.
 
Greg,

So when you write a song, for your own amusement, you never have the listener in mind? You never think, maybe I should change this lyric so it's not confusing, or whatever?
 
Zane1Tsu said:
This was about my initial opinion.
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Yeah so?

Zane1Tsu said:
So first I'm making and a generalized point then you follow up with that generalized point.

I then replied earlier with, with that logic, every song is good because the author will inevitably like his own song. That's when you came back with...
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I don't need a replay. If you actually have something to say, something fresh, something new, please just say it and stop playing games. Stuff like this makes me question your intentions and is why I tend to lose interest in these "intelligent debates".


Zane1Tsu said:
This hear me while I hear nothing else attitude is what I have a problem with. If that works for your songwriting, then that's great. I never said your intentions of why you write songs is a bad thing.
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So, then what are we doing here exactly? What is your actual problem with anything I've said besides daring to say that I think you're playing it too safe with vague and overly general comments?
Zane1Tsu said:
Greg,

So when you write a song, for your own amusement, you never have the listener in mind? You never think, maybe I should change this lyric so it's not confusing, or whatever?
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No and no.
 
Greg,

I've never heard your stuff, so I'm not commenting on the quality of your songwriting. But you stated earlier that you post your music on this site because of it being a recording site, you're looking for feedback on that level. But I see that you have other links, to soundcloud, etc... Why do you post your stuff there? Aren't you posting your songs there to be heard? I mean, you are writing songs to eventually be heard, right? If you don't care what people think, then why do that? Is it like your opinion on these posts? Hear me, but I don't care what you think, I'm the music police? What's the point? I'm asking sincerely.
 
Zane1Tsu said:
Greg,

I've never heard your stuff, so I'm not commenting on the quality of your songwriting. But you stated earlier that you post your music on this site because of it being a recording site, you're looking for feedback on that level. But I see that you have other links, to soundcloud, etc... Why do you post your stuff there? Aren't you posting your songs there to be heard? I mean, you are writing songs to eventually be heard, right? If you don't care what people think, then why do that? Is it like your opinion on these posts? Hear me, but I don't care what you think, I'm the music police? What's the point? I'm asking sincerely.
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Can you stop already??

I see this going down hill soon. Then the thread will be closed, people will be put on time-out, etc.
 
Zane1Tsu said:
Greg,

I've never heard your stuff, so I'm not commenting on the quality of your songwriting. But you stated earlier that you post your music on this site because of it being a recording site, you're looking for feedback on that level. But I see that you have other links, to soundcloud, etc... Why do you post your stuff there?
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Because it makes it easier to host here. You can drop a soundcloud link right into a post and it will play. That's the host du jour right now. I also occasionally add a downloadable MP3 if someone prefers to do it that way. As you may or may not be able to tell, I'm not too active with my music pages. I don't treat them like social networking sites. I'm not running around promoting my shit throwing links everywhere. I'm not looking for fans or "friends". And to take it right now, I'm currently not posting any of my stuff at all here or anywhere. Hell, even my immediate friends and family don't hear my stuff the majority of the time. My own bandmates usually have no idea what I'm up to. I just put the songs at those sites to easily post them here and just leave them for a little while. Sometimes someone will bump up an old thread and my link will still be there.

Aren't you posting your songs there to be heard? I mean, you are writing songs to eventually be heard, right? If you don't care what people think, then why do that?
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As I've already said, mix feedback. I'm not concerned with "being heard" beyond someone saying "hey maybe the vocals or lead guitar need to come up a hair". I'm cool with that. I appreciate that. What I'm not at all looking for is "hey Greg I think the chorus or rhythm guitar should go like this". Someone can suggest stuff like that if they want, but it will be disregarded. I feel that it's my song and I'm musically competent enough to write and arrange and play a song that I'm happy with. If I wanted something done differently, I would have done it myself without needing outside input. And if I'm happy with it, being MY song, it's certainly good enough to be considered finished. I'm not the guy that believes fresh ears for an outside opinion are a good thing when it comes to songwriting. I get constantly reminded by some of the blowhards in here that most of the "greats", I use that term loosely, look to outside sources for songwriting and arrangement help, but I genuinely could not care less. I know that puts me somewhat in the minority, but fuck it, I'm my own man. That's just how I feel. I didn't just start playing music last week, and no one has to listen if they don't want to. I don't know who in here genuinely likes or hates my music. But I typically get a lot of mix feedback, probably more than most people, and I'm truly appreciative of that. There are some good people here and I appreciate their time. I also return the favor a lot. I post tons of feedback for other people.

Is it like your opinion on these posts? Hear me, but I don't care what you think, I'm the music police?
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I don't know anything about music police. Hear me but I don't care what you think? WTF does that even mean? I'm not demanding anyone listen to anything. I really don't see what's so hard for you to understand about this.

What's the point? I'm asking sincerely.
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I just answered. Any other questions?
 
Greg,

Thanks for the detailed reply. I'm taking note of everything you stated.

And yes, I do have more questions. I see you have a link to download or purchase a cd. Is this a cd of your original music? If so, what compelled you to make it, release it for sale?
 
Zane.... take it offline. Send him a PM.

Thread closed for a while.
 
Zane1Tsu said:
Greg,

Thanks for the detailed reply. I'm taking note of everything you stated.

And yes, I do have more questions. I see you have a link to download or purchase a cd. Is this a cd of your original music? If so, what compelled you to make it, release it for sale?
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If you paid attention, you would know it goes to charity. You really should find someone else to pick a fight with. You are not going to win this one man. Take Gregs advise as a perspective. Don't even bother arguing. Besides, we learn from each other here. If you want to banter, go to the Cave. Seriously, this is stupid.
 
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