New to Analog

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G-Whiz

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Hello all. I am new to the forum, even though I have been recording for about ten years. I have a small home studio in which I use a Korg D3200 DAW to multitrack myself on all instruments, as well as record/produce local bands pro bono (read 'free') to sort of liven up and help out the local music scene around here. Most people I record say that I am the best in the area (although that's hard to believe). I have a dedicated building outside my house and have worked hard to do the best I can with what I have.

I am planning on moving the studio to a bigger space, with a bigger control room and better live room. Once I get all this worked out, I would like to start building a small business out of my home studio and making a little money from it on the side (I am already building my reputation). One thing that I would like to do is offer an option to record to tape.

I have been doing some homework on reel to reel machines and the one catching my eye at the moment is the Tascam msr-16. Before I get into actually buying one and trying to figure it out, I want to make sure I have a good understanding on how this works. If I am wrong, please correct me.

So I will need a 16 track analog board with direct outs (post fader) for each channel. I will run the source (mic/inst) into the ins of the mixer, then from the outs (for each channel) on the mixer to each of the rca inputs on the Tascam. Then I can run the outs from the Tascam to the ins on my D3200 for monitoring/final editing/mastering.

Would the setup really be as simple as that?
 
G-Whiz said:
So I will need a 16 track analog board with direct outs (post fader) for each channel. I will run the source (mic/inst) into the ins of the mixer, then from the outs (for each channel) on the mixer to each of the rca inputs on the Tascam. Then I can run the outs from the Tascam to the ins on my D3200 for monitoring/final editing/mastering.

Would the setup really be as simple as that?
Click to expand...

Well it looks like the D3200 only has 12 analog inputs so you will only be able to monitor/edit/mix/master 12 tape tracks unless you use the analog board for summing the 16 tracks down to 12.

There are other options but additional/different gear would be required.
 
You're right! I never even thought of my D3200 only having 12 inputs. I would say for monitoring, I could use the 16 track mixer. The only reason I'm bringing the D3200 into it is so that I can dump the tracks from tape to digital after tracking is complete, then I could mix, edit, and add effects after the fact.

Any suggestions for hooking this all together? I could get rack mounted mic pre's, but I don't think my budget will allow for 4 separate 4 channel units.
 
G-Whiz said:
Any suggestions for hooking this all together? I could get rack mounted mic pre's, but I don't think my budget will allow for 4 separate 4 channel units.
Click to expand...

The biggest headache for me if I was in your situation would be dumping the individual tape tracks to the DAW for editing/effects/mixing.

If you are happy with only using the 12 tape tracks, I would suggest getting 8 or 12 channels of rack mounted mic pre's (depending on how many mics you wish to record simultaneously) and forget about the analog mixer all together.

The D3200 is not ideally matched for the MSR-16, in my opinion it would be a waste to only use 12 tape tracks because of this when you have 16 track machine. The best way to get around this would be to sell the D3200 and get a digital interface with 16 analog inputs.

Also, thought I'd mention that tracking to 16 track, 1/2" tape then summing, editing, effects, EQ, mixing and mastering all digitally probably won't have a huge affect on the sound of your end product as compared to what you were doing before (tracking straight to digital) but as you can probably imagine, it's not that straightforward to implement the MSR-16 into your current setup.
 
I was afraid that it wouldn't make a huge difference in the sound, with all the digital processing after the fact. I may be an idiot for this, but how about, along with the rack pre's we've been talking about, use rack effects (probably only reverb and compression, maybe some delay) in the signal chain right before the Tascam, recording to the Tascam, then mixing down to a separate two track stereo tape machine, then running those to two channels on the D3200 or a USB computer interface?

I'm looking for a convenient way to get the finished tracks from tape to the computer for cd pressing, online release, etc,

Is recording to tape even worth it?

How would you go about it?

I'm sorry if this is very very NEWB ground, but I'm just trying to get my head on straight and get my stuff together and I don't really know where to start. I have research all the how-to videos and articles and have yet to find a step by step anything regarding recording to tape.
 
G-Whiz said:
I was afraid that it wouldn't make a huge difference in the sound, with all the digital processing after the fact. I may be an idiot for this, but how about, along with the rack pre's we've been talking about, use rack effects (probably only reverb and compression, maybe some delay) in the signal chain right before the Tascam, recording to the Tascam, then mixing down to a separate two track stereo tape machine, then running those to two channels on the D3200 or a USB computer interface?
Click to expand...

That's the way I do it... all analog tracking, summing, effects and mixing down to 2 track tape then just digitise the final mix.

It all depends on how willing you are to work within the limitations of analog. If you want to do it all analog, then you will be sacrificing things like cut/paste editing, comping, time/pitch shifting, automation, virtually unlimited track count, virtually infinite number of plug-ins etc.

Most people on this section of the forum prefer a hybrid setup where they incorporate both to retain the sonic characteristics of analog recording and the editing capabilities of digital. Doing this though means that you end up with a lot more gear and generally a much more complicated recording setup than you would have with an all analog or all digital setup.
 
I'm interested in a hybrid setup, myself.

You're talking to a guy that considers a punch in a luxury. If the musician or myself mess up a take, we start from the top. I sort of feel that punching in ruins the vibe of that particular take. I don't do much editing, other than cutting noise from the beginning and end of a track and fade outs. That's just me though, so I don't think going to tape would be much of a sacrifice for me.
 
Well, you can still do punch-ins with tape, if the deck is capable of it without causing pops/clicks at the punch point....and most decent multitrack decks can do it.

I spent the weekend tracking to my 2" Otari MX-80. On this one particular track, I was getting tired, having already done a bunch of practice/pre-production passes, and then when I went for the keeper takes, I kept having one or two spots where something wasn't right. Each pass it was something else (that's usually what happens when you get tired and over-practice a part)....
...so finally I just did a solid take and then punched in the couple of things I wanted to fix.

Done.

Getting it all in one pass is great IF you can do it fairly quickly...but if you end up doing a lot of passes, it just kills the vibe worse than punching in a couple of spots....IMO.
 
jpmorris said:
It sounds like you're almost using a tape workflow already.
Click to expand...

Yes. I consider the D3200 to be the closest you can get to an analog sounds without tape. I don't have much experience with other DAWs, but I have gone the computer route before and it just didn't feel the same. The thing I like about a standalone DAW is you can touch and feel the faders and most controls. I honestly don't think that tape would be much of a jump for me, other than cost to record. As long as I can figure out how to set everything up to work together nicely.
 
miroslav said:
Well, you can still do punch-ins with tape, if the deck is capable of it without causing pops/clicks at the punch point....and most decent multitrack decks can do it.

I spent the weekend tracking to my 2" Otari MX-80. On this one particular track, I was getting tired, having already done a bunch of practice/pre-production passes, and then when I went for the keeper takes, I kept having one or two spots where something wasn't right. Each pass it was something else (that's usually what happens when you get tired and over-practice a part)....
...so finally I just did a solid take and then punched in the couple of things I wanted to fix.

Done.

Getting it all in one pass is great IF you can do it fairly quickly...but if you end up doing a lot of passes, it just kills the vibe worse than punching in a couple of spots....IMO.
Click to expand...

I'm not totally opposed to punching in. I will do it under the circumstances you mentioned, but if people just have red light fever and/or come in not totally ready to record and just make stupid mistakes for no reason (this includes me a lot of the time) I will make them do it from the top over and over till they get it. This is just to practice the take a few times to get into the right mindset to do it, to leave personal crap at the door, and get into it. Only after they have practiced the take from the top a few times, then feel overwhelmed or overpracticed, that's when I allow punching.

I hope you understand what I mean.
 
The MSR-16 is a very nice machine... if you find one in great condition.

If I were you I would get a decent analog console and skip worrying about outboard pres. There are tons of nice consoles out there with good pres. You may be surprised how good for little money.

As for routing 16 tracks into 12 you could do some creative blending through the main buss outputs in a "Mix as you go" approach as well or instead of using direct outs. For example, use 10 tracks of the MSR-16 for individual instruments via direct outs to 10 tracks of the Korg, and then mix related material such as the kick, snare, overheads, and perhaps bass together through the buss outs into the last two tracks of the Korg. It all depends on how much separate control you think you'll need on an instrument or group of instruments when time to transfer.

And yes tracking to analog can make all the difference in the world, even though you will edit in the digital realm. The first capture can make or break the sound you're going for and sometimes tape is it.
 
It can be as simple or as complicated as you want it to be. I think the simplest path you can get away with is the best, and fosters creativity.
 
Beck said:
The MSR-16 is a very nice machine... if you find one in great condition.

If I were you I would get a decent analog console and skip worrying about outboard pres. There are tons of nice consoles out there with good pres. You may be surprised how good for little money.

As for routing 16 tracks into 12 you could do some creative blending through the main buss outputs in a "Mix as you go" approach as well or instead of using direct outs. For example, use 10 tracks of the MSR-16 for individual instruments via direct outs to 10 tracks of the Korg, and then mix related material such as the kick, snare, overheads, and perhaps bass together through the buss outs into the last two tracks of the Korg. It all depends on how much separate control you think you'll need on an instrument or group of instruments when time to transfer.

And yes tracking to analog can make all the difference in the world, even though you will edit in the digital realm. The first capture can make or break the sound you're going for and sometimes tape is it.
Click to expand...

I thought about a 'mix as you go' approach as far as drums go. If I run drums to 6 tracks on the Tascam, then come mixdown to Korg time, I can run the 6 drum tracks into a small mixer and out stereo, only using two tracks on the Korg, that should free up a few more tracks on the Korg than what I was thinking. Though I am seriously considering mastering to tape as well as tracking, this can hold me over till I get a second reel machine.
 
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lonewhitefly said:
It can be as simple or as complicated as you want it to be. I think the simplest path you can get away with is the best, and fosters creativity.
Click to expand...

Sometimes it's hard to see the road because you're reading the signs. I have run into this before while recording my solo stuff: worrying too much about the recording process rather than the music itself.

I'd rather take it the simple route as far as tape is concerned. I just want to please my clients at this point. I live in a small area that has next to zero 'real' studios, let alone studios that will record to tape. I think this will give me a good running start when I get my real studio up and running. As it is, though, I have people flocking to my 8x16 foot one room project studio to record for free. I just hope this translates well when I decide to start charging. Of course, I want to be the best at tape as I can be before I even offer it as an option.
 
Beck said:
The MSR-16 is a very nice machine... if you find one in great condition.

If I were you I would get a decent analog console and skip worrying about outboard pres. There are tons of nice consoles out there with good pres. You may be surprised how good for little money.

As for routing 16 tracks into 12 you could do some creative blending through the main buss outputs in a "Mix as you go" approach as well or instead of using direct outs. For example, use 10 tracks of the MSR-16 for individual instruments via direct outs to 10 tracks of the Korg, and then mix related material such as the kick, snare, overheads, and perhaps bass together through the buss outs into the last two tracks of the Korg. It all depends on how much separate control you think you'll need on an instrument or group of instruments when time to transfer.

And yes tracking to analog can make all the difference in the world, even though you will edit in the digital realm. The first capture can make or break the sound you're going for and sometimes tape is it.
Click to expand...

Also, I reckon with the Tascam, I would need the mixing console to have individual outputs for each track. Any ideas on a certain model I should look at?
 
If it's any help, what I did was I started out mixing to 1/4" tape, and once I'd got familiar with that I started expanding into multitracking via tape.
 
G-Whiz said:
Sometimes it's hard to see the road because you're reading the signs. I have run into this before while recording my solo stuff: worrying too much about the recording process rather than the music itself.

I'd rather take it the simple route as far as tape is concerned. I just want to please my clients at this point. I live in a small area that has next to zero 'real' studios, let alone studios that will record to tape. I think this will give me a good running start when I get my real studio up and running. As it is, though, I have people flocking to my 8x16 foot one room project studio to record for free. I just hope this translates well when I decide to start charging. Of course, I want to be the best at tape as I can be before I even offer it as an option.
Click to expand...

Why don't you offer an all-analog option, an all-digital option, or a hybrid option?

With the all-analog option, you really don't need much in my opinion. You'd be surprised at how little effects or processing were used on some of the most famous albums of all time.

This is what I have in my setup:

1. multitrack deck
2. stereo mix deck
3. mixer
4. reverb unit
5. 2-channel compressor

That's really all that's required in my opinion. You can set up a system like this for less than $1000. I made my first record 5 years ago on a setup with everything above for about that cost ... and I'm still using many of the components, so it was a good investment. Technically, you really don't NEED the reverb and compressor ... but I'd say they are a basic requirement for a finished product.

I also have a couple other mic preamps, another compressor, a mono deck for slap echo and a 2-channel buss EQ ... but those things are more luxuries than requirements.

You can get decent quality outboard stuff for the price of most plug-ins.

If you get a basic all-analog setup, you are then set up to integrate it absolutely any way you'd like with digital, or have the full analog option as well. You have ultimate flexibility, depending on what you or the artists desire on your project.
 
lonewhitefly said:
Why don't you offer an all-analog option, an all-digital option, or a hybrid option?

With the all-analog option, you really don't need much in my opinion. You'd be surprised at how little effects or processing were used on some of the most famous albums of all time.

This is what I have in my setup:

1. multitrack deck
2. stereo mix deck
3. mixer
4. reverb unit
5. 2-channel compressor

That's really all that's required in my opinion. You can set up a system like this for less than $1000. I made my first record 5 years ago on a setup with everything above for about that cost ... and I'm still using many of the components, so it was a good investment.

I also have a couple other mic preamps, another compressor, a mono deck for slap echo and a 2-channel buss EQ ... but those things are more luxuries than requirements.

You can get decent quality outboard stuff for the price of most plug-ins.

If you get a basic all-analog setup, you are then set up to integrate it absolutely any way you'd like with digital, or have the full analog option as well. You have ultimate flexibility, depending on what you or the artists desire on your project.
Click to expand...

That's exactly my point: 3 options: all digital, all analog, and hybrid. I am in love with this idea, as it would make my studio the most versatile one within 100 miles. I'm still looking at mixing consoles with direct outputs for each channel and I'm sort of lost when it comes to that. I suppose I could start with two tape decks and a mixer, as most of the bands I work with are lo-fi, indie, and punk. I just need a good jumping off point for a mixing console and my plan will start coming to fruition.
 
After I get some work done on tape, I want to find an old Airline or other brand record cutter and do limited runs of vinyl for people as well. I know this is off topic, but I'm aiming for a vintage/boutique vibe with my services. Hope fully you guys will understand what I'm going for: a full service experience. I could even start screen printing cds for clients, maybe.
 
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